Topic: Wow, early TNG is REALLY bad

[Clark Kent]

I'm watching it right now on spike tv, it's the one where weasly trips on a flower bed and is going to be put to death for it by the people who have sex with anything that moves.  Man is it bad.  How did this series last with a beginning like that?

[IndyShark]

All of the Star Trek series have a few bad episodes.

Need I remind you of Spock's brain?

[Clark Kent]

All of the Star Trek series have a few bad episodes.

Need I remind you of Spock's brain?

LMAO, yeah, that one is so bad it's classic though.   

[IndyShark]

Ok, how about Journey to Eden? Yech!

[Clark Kent]

Ok, how about Journey to Eden? Yech!

LMAO, Spock as a hippy.  Even more classicly bad.

[IndyShark]

Thank God there were more than a few good ones to offset the bad ones.

[Clark Kent]

Thank God there were more than a few good ones to offset the bad ones.

I wonder if mystery science theater 3000 ever did some of those episodes of trek.

[Mr_Tricorder]

If there was'nt already an existing fan base, I don't think TNG would've made it past the second season.  Fortunately, it did and 3rd season on it was great.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

If there was'nt already an existing fan base, I don't think TNG would've made it past the second season.  Fortunately, it did and 3rd season on it was great.

Agreed.  The first two seasons were weak, and the second was weaker than the first.  Had it been any show other than Trek then likely it would have been yanked early.

I also agree it got better from there on.  Good in the third, even better in the fourth.  By the fifth season it was firing on all cylinders.

-S'Cipio

[Clark Kent]

Which means there are only 3 seasons where TNG was at it's best.  They ended it in it's prime.  Bummer.  And look what they replaced it wiht: Voyager.  What a loss.

[Mr_Tricorder]

Which means there are only 3 seasons where TNG was at it's best.  They ended it in it's prime.  Bummer.  And look what they replaced it wiht: Voyager.  What a loss.

They could've easily extended TNG to ten seasons.  They ended it when it wasn't really working towards a close like DS9 and Voyager did.  To me, this made Generations feel more like the true series finally for TNG instead of the first TNG movie.

[Clark Kent]

Except generations overall wasn't that great of a movie.

[Mr_Tricorder]

Except generations overall wasn't that great of a movie.

I never said it was.  I thought it was an OK movie, but it felt more like a long episode than a movie and lacked the driving quality and excitement level that a Star Trek movie should have.

[Clark Kent]

Except generations overall wasn't that great of a movie.

I never said it was.  I thought it was an OK movie, but it felt more like a long episode than a movie and lacked the driving quality and excitement level that a Star Trek movie should have.

Agreed, though even as an episode, it wouldn't have been a very good episode.  Still, it did have it's moments, like that beautiful enterprise B, data's finally getting the 7 year old joke jordi told at farpoint and of course, data's explitiveas the saucer section went diving in to the planet.

[Chris Johnson]

like that beautiful enterprise B

I disagree... I don't like the bloated look.  Sure, the wide look suits the Enterprise-D/Galaxy-class Starships, but not for the Enterprise-B/Excelsior-class Starships.  John Eaves did a bad job with the Enterprise-B, which was likely a part of his quest for a Hot Rod/Porsche of a Starship, by the streamlined look of the Excelsior-class and making it look less streamlined, more "fat" in the primary and secondary hulls (Why would you need to expand the secondary hull for no reason--other than real life reasons--and add big impulse engines that'd melt the front side of the warp engines).  The Sovereign-class was a continuation of such a project that, if not then (a decade ago being a kid), I frown upon in recent years.

Anyways, back on subject:

Early TNG has had its bad moments, and some of Trek throughout its three seasons had its bad moments.  Even DS9 and Voyager had their bad moments.  It's the same with most everything else in life.

But you have to admit there was something good in the early seasons of ST: TNG and the rest of Trek (I don't know about Enterprise though... I guess).  For Season 1, I liked the following episodes:

01. "Encounter at Farpoint" [TNG]
02. "Where no one has Gone Before" [TNG]
03. "The Last Outpost" [TNG]
04. "The Battle" [TNG]
05. "Too Short a Season" [TNG]
06. "11001001" [TNG]
07. "Coming of Age" [TNG]
08. "Heart of Glory" [TNG]
09. "The Arsenal of Freedom" [TNG]
10. "Conspiracy" [TNG]
11. "The Neutral Zone" [TNG]

And for Season 2:

01. "Elementary, Dear Data" [TNG]
02. "A Matter of Honor" [TNG]
03. "The Measure of a Man" [TNG]
04. "Contagion" [TNG]
05. "Time Squared" [TNG] (Although "Cause and Effect" [TNG] does a better job at Time Loops than this)
06. "Q Who" [TNG]
07. "Samaritan Snare" [TNG]
08. "The Emissary" [TNG]
09. "Peak Performance" [TNG]

My favorites of each season on both lists were #2 of Season 1 and #6 of TNG.  My reasons:

Season 1 Favorite:
"Where no one has Gone Before" [TNG]

Not by far I guess, but a favorite of mine since I was a kid.  A more explorative way of Trek.  No violence, no death, just exploration.  One of the reasons I like Trek.  Some ideals, a nice dillema that might be overused nowadays (Voyager was all about getting home too.  The Enterprise-D took one episode to get stranded on one or two places in the universe before getting back home.  Voyager was on the other side of the Milky Way Galaxy and took seven seasons.), but still, it's a nice episode.  I just can't exactly put my finger on why I like it, but as you see here, some parts are described in an attempt.

Season 2 Favorite:
"Q Who?" [TNG]

Well... What can I say?  A recurring "villain" that puts some darkness into the campyness and optimism of Trek (but not eliminating it, and I'm suprised Star Trek: First Contact accomplished that too) by slapping the Human species on the back of their heads Jethero Gibbs-style by sending the crew of the Enterprise-D to System J25 and giving them their first ever encounter of a technologically-superior and virtually-dangerous technology-based species that has "evolved" to being normal everyday villains, but their "simpleness" and ungeneralization in this episode helps add to their nightmareish appearence. 
A race interested in technology and culture-absorbing, their morality virtually different.  How we see them as evil, they see their motives as good and justifyable, as they believe they're improving the quality of live for each and every species they see, whereas we see them as evil, perverting species and cultures and robbing them of their freedom and individuality, etc.
Basically, this episode was good as an hour-long adventure, along with Q (one of my favorite Trek "villains" thanks to John De Lancie).
It was tougher to choose for Season 2, since it was between this and "Contagion" [TNG], a good episode in itself.

Overall, I don't find both seasons appealing nowadays, but they have their fair share of episodes that are pretty good, even if they would pale in comparison to the better episodes of the later seasons of ST: TNG.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

I'm watching it right now on spike tv, it's the one where weasly trips on a flower bed and is going to be put to death for it by the people who have sex with anything that moves.  Man is it bad.  How did this series last with a beginning like that?

In 1986, TNG had no sci-fi competition...enterpirse was up against a ton of sci-fi that were being produced for less money...

[el-Karnak]

Enterprise was up against sci-fi series that were much more scared of being cancelled than Trek was, so the writing was better.  Nothing focuses the mind better when a network says  "we'll see how it goes" regarding even have a Season 1, much less having multiple seasons.

I had the feeling that the Star Trek people never took cancellation threats seriously until it was too late. Otherwise there would have been major writer changes for Enterprise in season 2 instead of season 4.

[Age]

 I liked early episodes of TNG they had a  TOS feeling to them it might be becuase DC Fontana was the producer instead of Bermon.Bermon of who knows nothing of Star Trek and it original cult following.DC Fontana was there from the beginning to the cage I believe.

[Dash Jones]

I like all of TNG.  I like the first and second seasons and think the premier as well as the seasons themselves blow the pants off of the first episode of DS9 and the first season of Voyager.

I did think TNG got weaker in some ways as it progressed.  I especially thought season 7 was weak, except for a few select episodes.

In my opinion.

Of course, I'm one of those that thinks almost every episode of TOS was superb soooo...

[Mr_Tricorder]

I think TNG got better as it progressed, but I think it hit its peak in the sixth season.  I really enjoy DS9 and don't think the first episode was bad at all.  You're right about Voyager, though.  I also like TOS, but it feels very different than any other Trek series, so it's really hard to compare it to the others.  I would have to say my favorite Trek series is DS9, but for me it's almost a three-way tie between TOS, TNG, and DS9.

[Clark Kent]

I like all of TNG.  I like the first and second seasons and think the premier as well as the seasons themselves blow the pants off of the first episode of DS9 and the first season of Voyager.

I did think TNG got weaker in some ways as it progressed.  I especially thought season 7 was weak, except for a few select episodes.

In my opinion.

Of course, I'm one of those that thinks almost every episode of TOS was superb soooo...

Yes, but aren't you from Canada?   

[Dash Jones]

You calling me a Canadian!???

Shocked I am, shocked I tell you.

Where I come from the lassies are fair, the lads are brave, the grass is green, and we can drink anyone under the table!!! (Though I hear some Scots, Aussies, and others think otherwise!).

[Hexx]

You calling me a Canadian!???

Shocked I am, shocked I tell you.

Where I come from the lassies are fair, the lads are brave, the grass is green, and we can drink anyone under the table!!! (Though I hear some Scots, Aussies, and others think otherwise!).

Sounds like Canada to me..

[762_XC]

TNG was NOT cut down in its prime. Once GR died the 7th season went right in the crapper.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Dont forget the early TNG episodes came only just 6 or 7 years following TV series like Battlestar Galactica and Buck Rogers in the 25th century. If you really want to see what cheap retro 70s/80s style sci-fi TV shows looked like... watch them, lol.

[Chris Johnson]

In all fairness, let me say that Season 7 TNG isn't all that bad (when compared to, say, Voyager's Season 7 in comparison, which in itself was okay), and there were some good episodes here and there, even the series finale, "All Good Things..." [TNG] was good.  Aside from the finale, one of my favorite Season 7 episodes had to be "Parallels" [TNG].  It was interesting, to say the least.  Imagine Quantum Leap, with a twist and no hologram to help you get through each reality.

[Age]

   I will admit I like DS9 to and really the last season as I like Nicole deBore or Ezri.

[E_Look]

Ah Tracey, imagine if D.C. Fontana or Gene L. Coon or one of the better Trek writers took the reins of the original Battlestar Galactica!  What promise that show had anyway!  It's just too bad things went the way they did (... imagine a fourth or more season of TOS!!)

[Chris Johnson]

If memory serves me right, I think D.C. Fontana's writing a script for the TOS Fan Film Star Trek: New Voyages.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Well, the year after TOS was cancelled, the network changed the way it calculates its statistics for determining ratings. Under the new ratings, TOS was actually a resounding success, something that if they had known at the time, TOS would never have been cancelled. The error they made was by not looking at ratings according to demographic groups. It was discovered that in fact a very large proportion of males aged between 16 and 24 were watching TOS, but in the overall ratings this wasnt apparent. Perhaps in an alternate reality out there somewhere, TOS actually ran for as long as other shows of its time, like MASH (which ran for several years longer than the Korean War which it was actually depicting).

[E_Look]

If you've got a wormhole to that alternate reality, tape seasons 4-7 for me.  I'll reimburse you for the VHS cassettes and postage; the cost of the energy required to get there, well, how about if I let you make copies for yourself?

[Age]

  Maybe she is talking about how long ot has been in syndication which it has more so than some others and the one that beat it out Bonanza.We didn't get TOS where I lived no cable.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

TNG was NOT cut down in its prime. Once GR died the 7th season went right in the crapper.

There was a definite, percipitous dropoff in the story quality during season 7.  I always attributed that to the fact that the show was wrapping up, and they were pulling old, passed over scripts off the back of the shelf rather than commisioning new ones.  (I don't know that, that was just my theory.)

I don't think GR had much to do with the stories after season 2, did he?

-S'Cipio

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Well, the year after TOS was cancelled, the network changed the way it calculates its statistics for determining ratings.

 It was discovered that in fact a very large proportion of males aged between 16 and 24 were watching TOS, but in the overall ratings this wasnt apparent.

There is a book called, "The Making of Star Trek", by Steven Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry.  It was written at the end of season two, and ends on the rather dark note of NBC moving Trek to late Friday nights for Season three.

There is a really funny quote in there, in hindsight.  The authors are explaining about audience demographics and how you have to try to appeal to them.  In the book, they note that the TV industry insists(ed) that you ignore the college age group (a big part of the 16 to 24 demo)  since they are a minority. 

However, now TV execs note that these are the people with no responsibilities, likely to have large disposable incomes, ripe for advertisers!  In short, they are now one of the most important demographics.

If only they had thought that way then, Trek would have lasted much longer.

-S'Cipio

[Sirgod]

You know It's kinda Funny. My Nephew Brett (10 YO) finally watched all the TOS Movies. and He just didn't get It, He missed all the inside jokes, Just couldn't wrap his head around the closeness that the cast managed to carry off. We had a talk yesterday , and It turns out, that while the Ship combat was cool, the storylines just didn't capture his Imagination like Starwars did.

I can only come to the conclusion that It has to be one of those, You had to be there things. I mean, how many of us grew up Waiting for the next adventure with Kirk and Co. and then many  years later, we see them on the big screen.  The show in Itself allowed us to dream, To further our own Education, etc.

Maybe he's just too young to understand things, then again, He has a crush right now on Jessica Alba. well so do I but that's beside the point.

Stephen

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

He may just be expecting Star Trek to be like Star Wars, mostly action and special effects with a storyline to fuel it (and not much grey matter required). Star Trek, on the otherhand has always been cerebral. Expectation may be causing your 10 yr. old, Stephen, to be missing the story.

[KBF-Angel Slayer]

I'm sorry, Tracey...were you saying something?  I got distracted by your sig pic...cleavage and a woman that looks like she isn't twelve...kind of makes a man forget you were talking.  You were talking right?  Cerebus or cerebal or something?

[Commander La'ra]

Tracey has a good point in addition to bitchin' sig pics.  When I was very young, Star Wars was it.  In my early teen years, I got an oppurtunity to really watch the original series and soon began to prefer it over Star Wars or even the TOS movies.  Later, I rediscovered my Star Wars fascination, and which one was my favorite could change in a matter of ours.

During my college years, I noticed that both were telling very different kinds of stories in completely different ways, and that it was okay to just say I loved both equally.

Star Wars I love because of the cliffhanger-esque action, the bizarre creatures, and the classic heroic archetypes represented throughout (Samurai, Cowboys, spunky Princesses, etc).

Star Trek I love because of the whole exploration aspect and the positive ideas for humanity's future.  TOS did that better than any of the follow on series.  DS9 is probably the best of the spin-offs, but it was a consistent performer...it's best episodes never hit the highs that really good TNG attained, but it's lows didn't sink down to the depths of the first and second season.

However, neither Star Wars nor Star Trek will ever be able to beat the best of sci-fi...

...The Twilight Zone.

I loved it then, I love it now.  It is the king.

[Chris Johnson]

You know It's kinda Funny. My Nephew Brett (10 YO) finally watched all the TOS Movies. and He just didn't get It, He missed all the inside jokes, Just couldn't wrap his head around the closeness that the cast managed to carry off. We had a talk yesterday , and It turns out, that while the Ship combat was cool, the storylines just didn't capture his Imagination like Starwars did.

I can only come to the conclusion that It has to be one of those, You had to be there things. I mean, how many of us grew up Waiting for the next adventure with Kirk and Co. and then many  years later, we see them on the big screen.  The show in Itself allowed us to dream, To further our own Education, etc.

Maybe he's just too young to understand things, then again, He has a crush right now on Jessica Alba. well so do I but that's beside the point.

Stephen

He may just be expecting Star Trek to be like Star Wars, mostly action and special effects with a storyline to fuel it (and not much grey matter required). Star Trek, on the otherhand has always been cerebral. Expectation may be causing your 10 yr. old, Stephen, to be missing the story.

In my youth, I got into Star Trek (as I lived in Okinawa, considering I remember nothing of my time in New Jersey) via TNG.  It wasn't the characters, Gene Roddenberry's optimistic vision of the future, the messages... It was the Starships.  Space Exploration and the odd combat or two, which caused me to have the now-hopeless kid dream of wanting to be an astronaught.  Kids are odd that way; we love eye-candy as well as candy for our mouth and stomach.  That's why Japanese TV is popular to kids nowadays (dubbed and mutilated or not), just as they were to those who lived in Okinawa.  The odd-yet-fun eye-candy and adventure.  No matter how pointless two cute "monsters" fight each other as two kids bark to their respective "monsters" orders that they carry out, the eye-candy is there, from electricity light shows to water tsunamis, and that's why kids like stuff such as that or Sentai (Power Rangers-esque shows).

While Star Wars was cool in itself, as a kid, I never got into Star Wars as much for the space battles, but for the Lightsaber combat.  I mean, I liked the energy-based blades, the different colors (long before Episode 2, I wanted a neon purple-looking Lightsaber.  And they existed in the Expanded Universe novels, which I never knew of then), the way they were performed in the Original Trilogy.  Even in 1999 when the torch of the choreography--so to speak metaphorically--was past from Peter Diamond to Nick Gillard, I was more interested in the Jedi and the Sith, right down to the lightsaber action.  Even now, I'd love to have one if they existed for real, aside from florescant lightbulbs and the hilt for show, or the hasbro toys or custom-made stunt sabers or hilts for show (without sounds and florescant lightbulbs), the stunt or hasbro ones I'd settle with if I bothered to get one.

Nowadays, I have more appreciations for sci-fi I've seen before, Star Trek especially.  Star Trek's philosophy, positive vision of the future, the characters, the better understanding of the adventures, etc.  And with Star Wars too, although I still hold more to being a kid in that area, even though I have more of an interest in Star Trek.  To summarize: The eyes of a kid is different from the eyes of an adult, no matter how much we'd like to think or wish that there's still some of a kid left in us.

(On a note, I never got into the Twilight Zone... Maybe I should try it out.)

[Commander La'ra]

To summarize: The eyes of a kid is different from the eyes of an adult, no matter how much we'd like to think or wish that there's still some of a kid left in us.

Don't have to think or wish, just have to be willing to let the little guy out to play.

To quote a favorite author, 'It's never too late to have a happy childhood.'

[Chris Johnson]

How I thought of it was this: The more you grow physically and learn from school, the more growing-up you do, the less of a kid you have in you.  Sure, we look back, we have it in our spirit, but we're adults mostly, and we're much of a different person; We'd naturally would be annoyed with our younger selves if they were another person entirely that we met (I figured this much out from little cousins and living with 'em for a half a year, though that's two years ago and I love 'em).  We'd also have grown to like different interests, especially those of the "mating ritual" (not speaking of myself though, but from observation), to which we'd most likely would've been grossed out by as a kid.

And with what I've been through here and there in my personal life, I'd kill to be a kid again in 1990, and not just a kid again by heart.

[E_Look]

 

You were a kid in 1990?  That means you're STILL a kid!  Pop that TOS DVD in the player!

[Sirgod]

He may just be expecting Star Trek to be like Star Wars, mostly action and special effects with a storyline to fuel it (and not much grey matter required). Star Trek, on the otherhand has always been cerebral. Expectation may be causing your 10 yr. old, Stephen, to be missing the story.

Your Probably right Tracy, now I feel kinda Bad for hitting him in the head with a Brick untill he said, I love Trek , I love trek. 

Stephen the Brick layer... Uhm wait.

[Clark Kent]

Star trek was something a I had to grow into too, I wasn't much interested in itsince it wasn't a cartoon when I was a kid.  However, TNG kept my interest better.  After a season or two of TNG I became curious again of TOS, checked it out again, and was hooked.  To be honest, though, I prefer the TMP movies best, second TOS, then probably TNG.  Voyager is not on the list, really.  The cast was too contrived, the plots too much to suspend disbelief.  DS9, while a bit shaky at firstturned into a great series.
For me, I like trek for the exploration, adventure and introduction of new concepts.
Except, TOS.  TOS was to check out O'Hura.

[Dash Jones]

I was a wierd kid...I always liked Trek...in fact one could almost say I grew up on it!!!

I didn't get to see all of TOS until recently however, when they finally came out with them on DVD...though I did watch them occasionally when they came on TV.

[Mr_Tricorder]

Of the Trek spinoffs (TNG, DS9, VGR, and ENT), I like DS9 the best.  The characters were very well-developed, the over-arching storyline became very compelling, and Sisko is, in my opinion, the best Starfleet captain featured that has been featured so far.  Plus, Terry Farrell is HOT (almost as hot as TracyG's sig )

[E_Look]

Mr. Tricorder- your sig pic: 

I can see it now-

Starfleet insertion team beams aboard Klink/Rom/Cardie ship with phaser rifles drawn, "All your base are belong to us!"

Klink/Rom/Cardie redshirt, "Someone set us up the photon!"

[Mr_Tricorder]

You're the first person EVER to comment on my little "alteration" to the Starfleet Command seal.  I wonder how many people have even noticed.

[Sirgod]

I have to admit, I completly Missed It , It's cool though. Man how long has that Vid been out on the Interweb? It's running through my head even now.

Stephen

[E_Look]

Gents, this might make heck of an April Fool's mod!  Unfortunately, it can't be done in any of the SFCs, but if someone would spoof one of the Star Trek FPS games, I'd really consider buying it!  Imagine a hand picked boarding party/insertion team led by Kirk, backed up by Worf, Sisko, and 7 of 9 as the heavy artillery, Spock and T'Pol as the point guards, while Hoshi and Data try to steal everything off the enemy memory cores!  Picard could be the voice in Kirk's earpiece, "Now, James, wasn't that a bit over the top?"...

... and no phaser for Kirk, he gets to bop all the baddies on the chin with his fists, all this after he grandly announces, "All your base... "

      

You're the first person EVER to comment on my little "alteration" to the Starfleet Command seal.  I wonder how many people have even noticed.

[Darth Sidious]

PLEASE DONT MAKE ME FALL OUT OF MY CHAIR AGAIN!

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1!

Gents, this might make heck of an April Fool's mod!  Unfortunately, it can't be done in any of the SFCs, but if someone would spoof one of the Star Trek FPS games, I'd really consider buying it!  Imagine a hand picked boarding party/insertion team led by Kirk, backed up by Worf, Sisko, and 7 of 9 as the heavy artillery, Spock and T'Pol as the point guards, while Hoshi and Data try to steal everything off the enemy memory cores!  Picard could be the voice in Kirk's earpiece, "Now, James, wasn't that a bit over the top?"...

... and no phaser for Kirk, he gets to bop all the baddies on the chin with his fists, all this after he grandly announces, "All your base... "

      

You're the first person EVER to comment on my little "alteration" to the Starfleet Command seal.  I wonder how many people have even noticed.