Topic: Economy of Force Mini-Campaign

[KHH Jakle]

Here's the basic tenets:
2 teams
6 scenarios
Each team has a set Total BPV which is used to buy ships from their 'Fleet List'.  From this BPV they would have to purchase ships, fighters/PF's and drone speed upgrades.  'Extras' (mines/repair/marines) would be handled as "Commander's Options" at the individual scenario level.
Each team then secretly divides their 'Fleet' into 6 groups.
The 6 scenarios are then played in series.

[KHH Jakle]

I got Sector Assault to work properly, so the two Battle Station defense scenarios can both be played.  In addition to enabling those to scenarios, Sector Assault would be used for each scenario (just with no base) in order to generate the Sector Assault txt report post game.  This will provide the basis for Scenario scoring and ultimately Campaign scoring (and the added benefit of allowing all the teams ships to have the same start location)

With the After Action report, SFB's standard victory conditions can be applied. 

S2.2 Victory Conditions
A - Before the scenario begins, both players total the "Combat BPV" of their ships (this would include fighters and drone speed upgrades).  The player with the lower total scores points equal to the difference between the two if none of his units disengage or surrender by the end of turn 2 (we'll this after 2 minutes)
B - Players are given the option of "purchasing" other equipment by paying vicotry points to the enemy
C - After the scenario is over, each player scores points based on the BPV of the opposing ships on a ship by ship basis using the following percentages:

For scoring any internal damage: 10% of BPV
For forcing a ship to disengage: 25% of BPV
For crippling an enemy ship (health < 51%): 50% of BPV
For Destroying an enemy ship: 100% of BPV
I wish we could capture in non D2 multi games - that's worth 200%

These percentages are based on gross adjusted BPV (total cost of the ship +any fighters and drone upgrades - not commanders options).  Only one percentage is scored (the highest applicable).

Here's an example below:

F-CA (125) v K-D6 (118)

Sector Assault Results
======================

Team 1: on Home (Defender) Team
    Ships Remaining:
        Ship Name '1713 Monitor'; Type F-CA; Endgame Health 90.0%
    Ships Disengaged:
        Ship Name '1713 Monitor'; Type F-CA; Disengaged during game.
    Ships Destroyed:

Team 2: on Away (Attacker) Team
    Ships Remaining:
        Ship Name 'IKV Krueger'; Type K-D6; Endgame Health 72.6%
    Ships Disengaged:
    Ships Destroyed:

Team 7: on Home (Defender) Team
    Ships Remaining:
    Ships Disengaged:
    Ships Destroyed:

Team 8: on Home (Defender) Team
    Ships Remaining:
    Ships Disengaged:
    Ships Destroyed:

The Klink earns 7 points at the outset due to A

The Fed Disengages, earning him an additional 31 pts for a total of 38

The Fed scores internals on the D6, earning it 12 pts

These points would go to the total Campaign pot, so to speak.

As an added cool factor, you can use SFB's 'Levels of Victory' to gauge what kind of victory was won:

To determine it, divide your score by that of your opponent and compare to the following scale:

500% Astounding
300% - 499% Decisive
200% - 299% Substative
150% - 199% Tactical
110% - 149% Marginal
91% - 109% Draw
67% - 90% Marginal (Defeat)
50% - 66% Tactical (Defeat)
33% - 49% Brutal
20% - 32% Crushing
19% -        Devestating

In the above example, the D6 earned a Decisive Victory.  The Fed, a Crushing defeat.

[KHH Jakle]

No team may disengage until one of the following occurs:

A - they cause some internal damage on an enemy vessel
B - one of their ships becomes crippled. 

There is a certain amount of 'best guess' with the crippling.  The sector assault txt will provide firm proof whether a ship was actually crippled or not, but looking at that little health meter isn't as exact - and if you are hot to disengage, it might start looking close enough. 

Considering no small liklihood that Teams will face at least one scenario where they are at a disadvatage, using disengagement becomes a very viable alternative.  You hold your opponent to only 25% of your BPV as opposed to 100% if you are destroyed.  Of course, if he cripples you first, he'll get 50% of that ships BPV. 

At the same time, assuming that you are at a disadvantage, then your opponent must have BPV superiority - which also means a pool of points you'll earn just by lasting at least 2 minutes before disengaging (Per the standard Victory Conditions).

Bottom line - this offers a dynamic tactical consideration rarely experienced, and it makes what would normally just be lopsided battles something more exciting.

[KHH Jakle]

While the initial Total BPV will be used to buy ships, fighter allotments and drone speed upgrades, this does not cover the standard 'extras': Mines, Repairs and Marines.

When a selected scenario is set up and the players are in space dock, they will be able to purchas up to 20% of their ships 'Effective Adjusted BPV' (includes fighters, not drone speed upgrades) in extras.  So for the Fed CA, that would mean 31 points (say 4 T-Bombs, 3 Repair and a Marine for 30).

However, these points are also 'paid' to the enemy as victory points.

Using the original example, the K-D6 already earned 7 points per 'A'.  Per 'B', he would earn an additional 30 points.

So, another tactical consideration: if you are going into a game outgunned to a certain degree, perhaps you negate the victory points you earn from A to load up with Extras.  Depending on the degree to which your opponent has the advantage, this might even the odds.

All of the above posts makes for some pre-planning and record keeping, but since everyone knows what ships they'll be fighting up front (once declared), it should make the additional considerations manageable and easily verifieable by all parties.

[KHH Jakle]

Let's work with the scenarios 1000 BPV and F&E's OOB as the 'Fleet List' (allowing only DNL's - not full DN's)

Using a Fed v Klink match up as an example, their Fleet Lists would look as follows (assume Y170 (mid era?) and all ships have available refits - all + for the Feds I guess, and B for the Klinks):

Feds: CVS+DE+FFE (Group), DNL, CC, 3x CA, 3xCL, 3xDD, SC, 9xFF, BT, CVB+DE+FFE (Group), 3xNCL, CMC, CF

Klinks: D7C, 3xD7, 3xD6, D6D, 3xF5C, 6xF5, FV+E4E (Group), 6xE4, CVT+2xE4E (Group), BT, D6G, FD7, 3xD5

So - using 1000 BPV, and knowing you had to outfit 6 different battles (one being a Battle Station attack and another a Battle Station defense)...what would you buy and how would you split them up?

Help here would be important, as it will go along way to determin if 1000 is a good number.

There are other useful OOB's that can be used - there are theatre specific OOB's for later periods in the war as well as pre-General War for some of the races.

[762_XC]

If you're going to use F&E as the OOB make sure you're using the one from Advanced Ops. A lot of the later ships (NCA's, DW's, etc) are in there.

[KHH Jakle]

If you're going to use F&E as the OOB make sure you're using the one from Advanced Ops. A lot of the later ships (NCA's, DW's, etc) are in there.

Yep - that's what I am doing...was looking at the Advanced Ops OOB as I typed this up last night.

Ya know, you and Mutt both expressed an interest in this when the concept was sketchy.  I think I've come upon what I'd like to do - so if you think you're still willing, I could draw up the Lyran and Hydran OOB for either the start of the War, or draw upon one of the later war Front scenarios OOB's for the Fleet Lists (so you SoV boys would be fighting your way out of the old colonies). 

It would provide a good way to work out the set up kinks (particularly the extra calculations for fighter costs, which have to come out of the starting TBPV).

You guys don't even have to commit to playing this out in the immediate future - just do the set up, then work out a date to play it out later.

Lemme know...

[KHH Jakle]

I messed with the Klink list.

With 1000 TBPV, I was only about to get 8-9 ship formations.  The only way to get up into around 12 or so was to do frigate wars.

I'd rather go with the possibility of getting a maximum of 18 ships (so 3 players in each game).

1850 seems like a good number, with that I was able to get the following:

D7L, 3xD7K, D6DB, 3xD5K, 3xF5C, 4xF5K, 3xE4B (Every ship gets full load of shuttles and full load of slow drones for free)

This could be broken out as follows:
1 - D7L, D6DB, D5K (for the Base Assault)
2 - D7K, F5C, E4B
3 - D7K, F5C, E4B
4 - D7K, F5K, E4B
5 - D5K, D5K, F5K
6 - F5C, F5K, F5K (For Base Defense)

I believe out of 1850, there were like 20 pts to spare.  These would go into the Klinks Victory Point pool

Also - you'll notice that I purchase the version of the Fleet List ships that is the most refitted version to date.  I would have the option of downgrading.  Let say I had 58 pts left.  I can't get another E4B, but I can get a regular E4 (lets say I had it drug out of mothball for this short campaign and it didn't have a chance to be refitted)

[KHH Jakle]

The host needs to have and Sector Assault.  So the whole process doesn't break down, it would be good to have several players that have it, and are familiar with using it.  It's pretty easy.

Moderator:
Each mini-campaign needs to have an independent moderator. 
Duties:
* receive the secret ship purchases and scenario breakouts from each team, verify the math and then post them, recording any earned Victory Pts at this point and starting the tally
* receive the Sector Assault txt's after each mission, as well as a reported/confirmed detail of other factors:
- were their victory pts earned due to Commander's Options purchase?
- did a team earn Victory Pts due to Victory Condition A (either by being the last player on the map or not disengaging before meeting the disengagement requirements - 2 minutes in game, and after causing internals or being crippled)
- Combat BPV for each ship in the battle (ship + any fighters/PF's)
- this should be posted along with the Sector Assault tx (I'll make some sort of form or checklist for the non-Sector Assault txt stuff)

The moderator will use this information to post a reply that details the points earned for each side in the given scenario, as well as the total tally.

I'll volunteer to moderate any non-khh match-up (SoV v FSD for example).

[762_XC]

So what do you need from us?

[Mutilator]

Certainly interested here, however; I am about to move and will be off line for the next month or two while I relocated my family. Once everything gets settled away and I have re-established new family and work routines I will certainly help out where required.   

Would 2000 BPV as a round figure be too much? Thinking here for drone up grades, mines, spares, shuttles and/or fighter/PF upgrades? Not sure of the ERA you were looking at but I used to like having the mix of slow and med speed drones to help keep the speed up.

If you provided the ship list or link to the one you plan to use TT might have the time to crunch some numbers to see what would flesh out a draft Lyran ship capability plan.

[KHH Jakle]

To answer both of you  (more or less):

762 - all I need is your willingness to play guinea pig and play test this concept.  After that, once I provide you with your Fleet List and the TBPV, you just need to 'buy' your force.  You guys would be of particular interest to me, as we need to factor in your fighter purchases.  Make sure you and a couple other SoV'ers have Sector Assault installed.

Mutt - I'd prefer not to wait a month or two (I am rolling and eager to see some result).  If you can defer to TT to plan and take on some free agents (Dfly for instance) to fill in the gap.  Let me know if you think that will work.  If not, KHH could fill in in a pinch (you'll have to trust my integrity, and we could always get a 3rd party volunteer to receive the ship lists/scenario deployments before they are published) and we can do Hydran v Klink

As for the TBPV: I rechecked and Mines/Repairs/Marines do not come out of the TBPV.  If they are purchased, they are handled per game as commander's options.  Fighters ARE covered by the TBPV - I just can't remember if Drone Upgrades are as well - I don't think so though.  I think they are Commander's options as well.

That being the case, 1850 - while not very round - feels right.  I think it will help drive towards more historical deployments and get some more fodder ships in play.  Maybe not, we'll find out.

[762_XC]

OK, let's get started then. 

[KHH Jakle]

Good enough. 

I'll use the Start of War OOB for the Hydran/Klink border, so that works out to be mid era - if you'd much rather work with a late war OOB, just let me know and I'll use one of the Force scenarios. 

Just ppost your preference and I'll post it tonight in a seperate thread. 

Mutt - I am not counting you out, but I do want this to roll, so if you can marshall your resources and you think your guys will be able to field a team without you, then just let me know soon.

[Mutilator]

Posted by: Jakle

Mutt - I am not counting you out, but I do want this to roll, so if you can marshall your resources and you think your guys will be able to field a team without you, then just let me know soon.

No worries Jakle as my ISP has failed to disconnect me yet and my last day at work is Friday I will post on our fleet mail ASAP for TT and  Warp10 to check out these threads and make the call themselves. I know we have been looking for something to fill in the gaps between servers and the next PBR season.

[762_XC]

I suppose a question remains as to what to do about fighters. Using an SFB fighterlist would be a mistake IMHO, as it is not balanced for SFC.

[Ronin]

Interested as a pilot. Can not speak for a fleet. Will be watching. Thanks for the great idea, Jakle. < S >

[KHH Jakle]

I suppose a question remains as to what to do about fighters. Using an SFB fighterlist would be a mistake IMHO, as it is not balanced for SFC.

No question at all in my mind.  No intention of using an SFB Fighterlist. 

Treat the TBPV the same way you would for a PBR match.  Buy your ships, be mindful that in order to upgrade the fighters you need to pay for them - I've seen how you guys plan for PBR missions on the old SoV forum - same thing here, just bigger.

I don't mean to make light of it though - it will be much more complex for Hydran players, because you'll have to go through more permutations of possible selections before you settle on what you think will give you what you need, spread out across 6 scenarios.

That's part of the reason why Hydrans make a good test - it will be the most complex and rigorous process for you.  If it's bearable, than it should be worklable for eveyone else.

[KHH Jakle]

Clarification on Drone Speed Upgrades:

These are paid for out of the TBPV, not as part of Commander's Options.

[KHH Jakle]

762 - If KHH is SoV's opponent for the first round, Kroma volunteered to be the initial collection point for the Ships selected and how their assigned to each scenario.  He can then post that and I can take over from there.

[762_XC]

What are your thoughts on "n" variants?

[HoHhoch]

It sounds interesting I would be interested on being on a team with trauma tech and warp 10.
Thanks
HoHHoch

[KHH Jakle]

What are your thoughts on "n" variants?

Hadn't thought about those.  Ok I imagine

[762_XC]

Really? I would think no, just to be historical.

[KHH Jakle]

Really? I would think no, just to be historical.

I don't like them....but I also recognize that factoring the fighter purchases might be a huge pain in the ass.  Your call.

[KHH Jakle]

This is laid out above, but I thought I'd pull it together in one post.

A.  Prior to start of the Mini-Campaign, you can earn VP's by not spending your full allotment of initial ship purchasing power.

example: if you have 1850 for purchasing your ships, yet you only spend 1830, you earn 20 VP's right from the outset.

B. Scenario Points:  Each side can earn points from each scenario.  They are generated as follows:

1 - When the two forces have different total combat BPV's (which includes the ships BPV + fighters, not commander's options), the smaller force will earn the equivalent of that difference in VP's IF they do not disengage until at least 2 minutes after game start, along with meeting the general disengagement requirements (score internals on one enemy ship or have one of their ships crippled)

2 - Each ship can buy up to 20% of their combat value (BPV + Fighters) in Commander's Options (mines/marines/repairs), but they pay these points to their opponents in VP's

3 - at the end of the scenario, each team will earn points based on a % of the ships BPV (this is BPV + fighters and drone upgrades) dictated by what they did to it (see scale several posts above). 

Each of these 3 sources are totaled up for each side for each scenario and will determine a Scenario Winner.  The Scenario winner get's a 10 point bonus added to the points won in that scenario  , then each teams points will then go to the Campaign VP pot. 

After all 6 scenarios are completed, all the VP's will be totalled up for each side to determine a winner.