Topic: what class is the lyran dnd??

[FPF-DieHard]

The command rating of the L-DD is 4.  The command rating of the L-DND is 5.

What are the command rating of the other DD Leaders?   My SITS are home.

[FPF-Wanderer]

Taking a look at R3, under "Destroyer and Varients", the DD, SC, and MS have a command rating of 4 (the PFT has a 5).  Under "War Destroyer and Varients", the DW, DWE, DWA, DWS and DWM have a command rating of 5, the DWL a rating of 6.

[TraumaTech]

This ship is a frigate,

It's a destroyer.  There is a difference...



  a rose by any other name is still a rose

built from the scrap metal of a DN or DN section(depending on how you want to look at it).

The text doesn't say 'scrap' at all.  Scrap implies that it is a junker, which implies that it couldn't possibly be a command ship.  It was a command section, built for a specific purpose, that due to an emergency was prevented from being applied to that purpose - so the Lyrans modified it to produce a stand alone ship.  There isn't really any other way to look at it.



    for all intents ....it was a heavy cruiser that was going to be converted to a dn.the central section had been built,but as the heavy couldn't disengage from the front,some lyran genious decide to make a couple modifications and add wings to make it a stand alone ship.your original statement implies it was a dn that was shrunk down to a destroyer

The sfb material sent to me,by Jakel ,says it is a support ship.

No it doesn't.  Nor does it say it's a command variant for that matter - but it certainly doesn't say it's a support ship

you are right......it doesn't say it was either,it says it's roles were "ONLY" of a support nature(homeworld defense and escort duties).One would think that if it mentioned these two duties,they would have(BUT DIDN'T) mention it's command roles......strange

Niether...it's ship's designation(ie: L-DND) ...is it described as a command varient.

A ships designator is sometimes and indicator of a Command Variant - but it is not the rule


 funny how this is the first time,you would mention this,during our present dispute.In the past you said to look for a "L" indicating leader or"c or bc" indicating command,and anything with a "e" at the end was for escort.As such ,following your rules,it didn't seem that the L-DND should be anything but "unrestricted",and may still be

The only two uses stated in this literature was for homeworld defense for a couple months,then as an escort for carriers and other ships.

Correct....although it is not a true carrier escort and escorting a DN could also get assigned to a command variant (when using fleet sized S8 rules)


well we are not using S8 rules,we are using your pbr rules,and under those rules,there is no justification to put it in as a command varient,most especially as the material you used originally indicates it's role was only for support



All that being said (I am in a contrary mood )....if the command rating of this thing is no different then a regular L-DD - it should probably get moved to support.

   yes you are,when dealing with me      if the  command rating is no diferent than the L-DD  ,it should be placed back in the "unrestricted" list where it belongs,not just in the "support list" which we were willing to compromise with.

[KHH Jakle]

oh now you gone plain loco lucy.

But hey, if you can convince them....

[Mutilator]

This ship is a frigate,

It's a destroyer.  There is a difference...

Frigate? Or is the ship selection option not accuracte?

http://img228.echo.cx/img228/9969/frigatednd3sp.jpg

It is accurate.  The ship selection is broken down into four catagories; Frigates, Light Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, Dreadnoughts.  All destroyers are placed in the Frigate section.

OK thanks that made sense.

Comparing the DND to the DD or even a CC in terms of command and control seems a bit superfluous anyway. The DD and CC were both pressed into service in 2220 the technological advances that would have been made in the 57 years when the DND came into service (2277) would have been great, even with the DD and CC getting many refits over that 57 year period the DND would still be a lot more capable in terms of technology, sensors, weaponry, hull material and even command and control capabilities.

Even in today’s navies you may have a much more technologically advanced frigate but the 35 – 45 year old destroyer or cruiser is probably still the command ship. From my naval career I can truly say the command ship never has anything to do with the ship or crew but the seniority of the captains that commands them. If you have a LCDR in command of a cruiser and a CDR on the mine sweeper I am sure the mine sweeper would be in charge of any tasking those ships would under take together or so has been my experience.

At any rate nice to see a good debate on the forums. *coughs unrestricted cough* 
 

[TraumaTech]

oh now you gone plain loco lucy.

But hey, if you can convince them....

     loco i maybe.......lucy i defenately am not,and as for convincing them ,well........if i do,i do.If not then personally,i would feel that popularity wins debates(at least this one),for i have applied your rules,plus your sfb material sent to me,to come up with my conclusion re: the L-DND.For new factors are being applied to this thread,that were not applied to others to prove your point such as command rating   DWL is 6  but has 4 points power less than the dwlp,so what's the dwlp's rating.my point here is,you are using a lesser ship(dwl ) to keep the ratings close between dwl and dnd thus making your arguement sound reasonable

[762_XC]

Command rating tells the story.

[KHH Jakle]

Honestly, I REALLY don't care how this plays out.  I am just trying to point out what I see are...fallacies.  Not that your argument is wrong, but they apply things that don't really have bearing or context to the specific question.

For example:

for i have applied your rules, plus your sfb material sent to me, to come up with my conclusion

Not conclusively.  If it was black and white, I never would have argued in the first place.  I wouldn't have changes a thing, but I would have said 'hey, good catch - too bad I am not maintaining PBR any more.' 

For new factors are being applied to this thread,that were not applied to others to prove your point such as command rating

I...I...don't see how this matters.  It's using additional information to make a decision.  So?

DWL is 6 but has 4 points power less than the dwlp,so what's the dwlp's rating.

A DWL and a DWLP are the same ship...the 'P' is just the power pack.  It has no bearing on the class of the ship, it's command capability or it's 'stature'.  It's just an additional refit.  A D7L is a D7C with the 'k' refit.  Otherwise, it's the same ship.  It's not your fault that you aren't aware of these little details, but they are there nonetheless.

my point here is,you are using a lesser ship(dwl ) to keep the ratings close between dwl and dnd thus making your arguement sound reasonable

Command Ratings are generally universal to class type.  FF's usually have a command rating of 3.  CA's have a rating of 8.  Command Variants usualy have one higher command rating.  I am suggesting that using the DND's command rating as an indicator of command capability relative to a Destroyer Leader.  It is what it is.  I am merely bringin facts to bear.  Let the folks in here weigh in and then let DH/Kroma decide.


As for popularity winning debates...whose popularity?  Mine?  Who the hell am I popular with?  Strengthen your argument.  I'm not even telling you your wrong - I am just raising the points that you are ignoring or unaware of.

[KHH Jakle]

Comparing the DND to the DD or even a CC in terms of command and control seems a bit superfluous anyway. The DD and CC were both pressed into service in 2220 the technological advances that would have been made in the 57 years when the DND came into service (2277) would have been great, even with the DD and CC getting many refits over that 57 year period the DND would still be a lot more capable in terms of technology, sensors, weaponry, hull material and even command and control capabilities.

It's not superfluous because what you are suggesting is never reflected in the source material at all (Late Era Destroyers having higher Command Rating because they are newer Tech).  Old CA's have a command rating of 8.  NCA's.....have a command rating of 8.  Now, when you get to X-ships, yes you see a jump, but that is truly advanced tech.

From my naval career I can truly say the command ship never has anything to do with the ship or crew but the seniority of the captains that commands them. If you have a LCDR in command of a cruiser and a CDR on the mine sweeper I am sure the mine sweeper would be in charge of any tasking those ships would under take together or so has been my experience.

Interesting - but ultimately has no bearing here.

As for the unrestricted debate comment - am I wrong to read that as a good natured jab at my former tendency to lock TT when he proved too annoying (or down right insulting)?  I appreciate it in good humor if that's what it is - although I think it's important to note that before, I had to be on those forums, so sometimes locking out 'he of the run-on sentence' was the only way to keep at business as usual.  Here, I can always just leave the forums.

[KHH Jakle]

Woo-hoo I got a bad Karma!! 

I'm having a ball - how bout you guys?

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

 

[Mutilator]

Posted by: Jakle

...As for the unrestricted debate comment - am I wrong to read that as a good natured jab at my former tendency to lock TT when he proved too annoying (or down right insulting)?...

Aye Jakle you totally misread that part of my post, I was referring to my preference on the DND as in it should be “unrestricted” the debate part means it’s been a long time since I have seen any meaningful discussion that peaked FSD’s interest, nice to see we still have some fire in our bellies. (Almost makes one miss Gendo  ). In no way was the comment direct towards you or how you ran the old GZ forums sorry for the misinterpretation. I will try not to be so obtuse with my humour.

The DND from our perspective should not be a command ship. Everything else I posted about the DD and CC or my own naval career may be unconnected to this issue, however; as we are making interpretations of source material for our own use, I simply was trying to provide some of my perspective of why I think the DND should be unrestricted or at most a support ship.  Peace.

***Cough DND unrestricted cough*** (p.s. friendly jab  )

[KHH Jakle]

I will try not to be so obtuse with my humour.

No...I need not be so acute 

Anybody up for geometry humor thread?

[FPF-DieHard]

Have I mentioned that FPF is likely going Lyran next cycle?

Maybe is should be un-reatricted and the BPV lowered by 50 . . .   

[TraumaTech]

kitty fights are the best       and so much more fun than feddy fights    .FSD looks forward in tutoring FPF   

[Mutilator]

Have I mentioned that FPF is likely going Lyran next cycle?

Maybe is should be un-reatricted and the BPV lowered by 50 . . .   

What! Only by 50 points what kind of    is that!   

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Have I mentioned that FPF is likely going Lyran next cycle?

Maybe is should be un-reatricted and the BPV lowered by 50 . . .

I thought you said you were going 'fighter cheese' this coming cycle?

[TraumaTech]

Honestly, I REALLY don't care how this plays out.  I am just trying to point out what I see are...fallacies.  Not that your argument is wrong, but they apply things that don't really have bearing or context to the specific question.

how do i enterpret this   " fallacies "    <-------which is it------->     "not that your arguementis wrong"    near as i can tell,i have put up the strongest arguement as to why the L-DND should be unrestricted   

For example:

for i have applied your rules, plus your sfb material sent to me, to come up with my conclusion

Not conclusively.  If it was black and white, I never would have argued in the first place.  I wouldn't have changes a thing, but I would have said 'hey, good catch - too bad I am not maintaining PBR any more.' 



how is what i have stated not black and white.your rules(the written down ones) , your sfb material which states what the dnd was used for.What have i missed???

For new factors are being applied to this thread,that were not applied to others to prove your point such as command rating

I...I...don't see how this matters.  It's using additional information to make a decision.  So?



    so why not say" the L-DND's command rating is significant enough,that it is a command varient".It's lower than the dwl,which is a 6.does this not mean that it(the dnd a 5) is not a command varient.It seems your are asking the sfb community to support your version because you cannot state categorigly that it is.

DWL is 6 but has 4 points power less than the dwlp,so what's the dwlp's rating.

A DWL and a DWLP are the same ship...the 'P' is just the power pack.  It has no bearing on the class of the ship, it's command capability or it's 'stature'.  It's just an additional refit.  A D7L is a D7C with the 'k' refit.  Otherwise, it's the same ship.  It's not your fault that you aren't aware of these little details, but they are there nonetheless.


  i will defenately say,your knowledge is significantly more than mine is,in sfb and ship's knowledge.....However,you have not stated anything that comfirms that the L-DND is a command varient(as yet). dwlp vs dwl(i understand)   d7l vs d7c(i understand)  but dnd vs dwl(shrugs)  how are they the same,other than being lyran frigates

my point here is,you are using a lesser ship(dwl ) to keep the ratings close between dwl and dnd thus making your arguement sound reasonable

Command Ratings are generally universal to class type.  FF's usually have a command rating of 3.  CA's have a rating of 8.  Command Variants usualy have one higher command rating.  I am suggesting that using the DND's command rating as an indicator of command capability relative to a Destroyer Leader.  It is what it is.  I am merely bringin facts to bear.  Let the folks in here weigh in and then let DH/Kroma decide.


if it was as simple as you say,then you would have beaten me over the head with it's command rating a long time ago.But ,as it is lower than the dwl,this is causing you problems.Thus,as i said earlier,you are asking the community to jump on the band wagon,and beat me over the head.If this is a command varient.....prove it.I will relent,and say ty for the lesson.But i must say,this debate has been fun so far 


As for popularity winning debates...whose popularity?  Mine?  Who the hell am I popular with?  Strengthen your argument.  I'm not even telling you your wrong - I am just raising the points that you are ignoring or unaware of.

    actually,i was referring to mine.Your knowledge and dedication to sfb,has been  outstanding.As such,it would be easier for you to swing the community to your way of thinking.I am not ignoring any points.You just in my opinion,haven't given any,that would shut me up or shown me any that i was unaware of

[Dfly]

Hi all.  Here is my 2.3 cents worth on all this


First off, no knock against DH or Kroma, but who made them king of SFB, or SFC, or even the Lyran shiplist?  Why must we wait for a DECISION by them on this?

I gladly await their interpretation of all this info in this thread, but either they are gods, or I am just so small that I dont understand it, so someone clarify this for me please.

Secondly, the DND, from what I have read so far, is a UNIQUE Destroyer sized ship, deriving from the center hull of a DN, with added wings for a stand alone ship that was used exclusively for planetary home defence, and then as an ESCORT, till it was time to rejoin the shipyard to become the DN it was meant to be, only to be destroyed in  it's final mission before returning to such said shipyard.  Please note the word UNIQUE, as in there was ever only 1, therefore it automatically should go into a category which there is no way you can take more than 1, but that does not make it a command ship

Also, that the CWL command rating is actually higher than the DND command rating, and yet they are both frigate class, Destroyer sized ships.
Granted the command rating is between the DD(4) and the CWL(6), but the 5 does not constitute a Command ship.

From this info(which all can be read above in this thread), my conclusion,(albeit apparently not worth a lot without the words of DH and Kroma(no offence meant to either of them)), is that the DND is not a command ship.
Furthermore,  Please note the word UNIQUE, as in there was ever only 1, therefore it automatically should go into a category which there is no way you can take more than 1, but that does not make it a command ship.

Now, you figure out which category has the Uniqueness of allowing the use of only 1 copy of a ship in a 3 ship formation, without it being a command ship, and that is where I would suggest you put it.

[762_XC]

A CWL is a frigate?