Topic: Beta Patch - Suggestions for finished patch

[Torque]

First,
I am extremely greatful to all parties that worked in providing us (the customers) with a beta patch.  Great job thanks guys!

IMO - For the finish patch two things have occured which are causing me to lose interest in the game, (1) I play a lot of Dyna and PVP battles.  The new random mission map, is more like debris of some kind (asteroid, vortex. sun, etc...) on80% of all missions.  It has taken a tremendous amount of the fun out of PVP battles.  I also believe it has added a sense of un-realism to the game, and I hope its inclusion in the finished patch is greatly reviewed.  Please drop the randomness down tremendously, after all now its a mute point to review the sector you are warping into for a neb, blackhole, or asteroids when you know for sure there will be debris in almost every mission.
(2) On larger more evenly balanced dyna's(GFL and some others) the federation has been casterated, so much so that many players that used to play the federation now feel they stand no chance vs the rest of the races, good pilots and mediocre ones.  I realize there was an attempt to balance, and most Dynas may have so many more ppl playing fed that it was requested for the other outnumbered races.  Please offer a control for the ADMIN to alter this with a percent change for heavies, or primaries or do something else that can be done to alter this balance.  

That is all, and one persons opnion only.  
Thank you for working on the patch.

-Torque
 

[Wiz33]

Quote:
First,
I am extremely greatful to all parties that worked in providing us (the customers) with a beta patch.  Great job thanks guys!

2) On larger more evenly balanced dyna's(GFL and some others) the federation has been casterated, so much so that many players that used to play the federation now feel they stand no chance vs the rest of the races, good pilots and mediocre ones.  I realize there was an attempt to balance, and most Dynas may have so many more ppl playing fed that it was requested for the other outnumbered races.  Please offer a control for the ADMIN to alter this with a percent change for heavies, or primaries or do something else that can be done to alter this balance.  

That is all, and one persons opnion only.  
Thank you for working on the patch.

-Torque
   

  I don't mind about 1) as it makes you be careful of your surroundings and make PVP actually more interesting.

  I agree on number 2. with my own additions:

  We need to be able to control the triple fire rate . Put it in one of the .gf files

  Fed needs either new/improve weapons or a BB (Klin can use one too)

  Borg needs work, Have anyone (either alone or in a fleet) ever takes on a Human cube and won? Anyone? Anyone out there?

  What most people don't realise is that while there might be a large number of Fed player on any server, most are green.  There are very few hardcose Fed players. Most new player use Fed as a learning tool and move on to other races once they learn the system.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

What changes were made to the Feds?

[Torque]

Item (1) when flying at impulse speeds of 80+ and launching heavies trust me it doesnt add much to working for weeks to get a ship only to have to eliminate this strategy in leau of ships using speeds sub 50.  That lends itself to a different strategy that plays into stronger slower ship classes, again ships the Federation does not have.  To me it eliminates a great deal of creative playing.  Just my opnion.

  To a later post ....what changes to Federation......  
The federation especially in upper massed ships is extremely outclassed by all races but Roms, after the patch, Id say its now offical, all races including roms.  Also Platforms have extended hit power and accuracy and again it lends itself to planetary conquest best accomplished by the race with the best heavies.    

[Alidar Jarok]

That doesn't exactly answer my question

(Excluding Borg, as they have Huge advantages and Huge disadvantages, so they are tough to judge) It was my opinion that in pre-patch the best race was the Feds.  They had superior hard points and more 360 arcs.

In post patch, Plasma, F Disruptors (and possibly all RDizzies) were improved (along with cloak)

If it's just Roms improving, you can't really call that castrating.

[SSCF Hooch]

Quote:
That doesn't exactly answer my question

(Excluding Borg, as they have Huge advantages and Huge disadvantages, so they are tough to judge) It was my opinion that in pre-patch the best race was the Feds.  They had superior hard points and more 360 arcs.

In post patch, Plasma, F Disruptors (and possibly all RDizzies) were improved (along with cloak)

If it's just Roms improving, you can't really call that castrating.  

I agree that the Romulan ships were at a disadvantage in 1.00 . Those bugs were dealt with well  I think.

I do think that the anti-cloak tech now needs tweaked a bit so a Federation ship does not always get caught with his pants down.

 The whole CA, and DN classes in the Federation hulls need to have their mass boosted so they can carry a larger warp core that will power the weapon suites to higher levels so the current weapons will deal a killing blow.

The volley fire was the killing shot from a Fed ship. Without it the Fed player is hosed. I know this is an old arguement but the Federation Photon has to be a feared and accurate weapon or the Federation ship is a sitting duck, IMO.

Hooch  

[kevlar]

"The whole CA, and DN classes in the Federation hulls need to have their mass boosted so they can carry a larger warp core that will power the weapon suites to higher levels so the current weapons will deal a killing blow. "

Really think so?
Try using Klingon warp cores first, then using some front and rear weapons and decent shielding, ...  and  see  what is really underpower!  Unless you cut on  the thruster/impulse,,,   and then the sometimes mentioned klingon racial advantage ( ship agility and speed )  goes down the drain in CA/BH versus the need to power up a decent package of weapons. And klingons still have weaker shields and armor.


 

[Cleaven]

Quote:

 I know this is an old arguement but the Federation Photon has to be a feared and accurate weapon or the Federation ship is a sitting duck, IMO.

Hooch  

Okay, you have got my curiosity since I must have missed the old arguement. Why is it that it is the Fed Photon and not, for example, the Romulan Plasma (which originally was that big orange ball of destruction from BoT) which is to be a feared and accurate weapon? It's just that you seem to be of the same mind as that responsible for the original SFC3 design and I would like to understand the reasoning for that because the original design seemed to be wrong.    

[Wiz33]

  Simple. A well placed shot of one plasma H and 2 Plasma M will take down a class IX shield in one shot. Even the AI can do it now with the patch. Even the old triple fired 3 Quantum from a Sov with Leg crew couldn't do that. Couple that with cloak and the Rom have an advantage. And that's with the Warbird. It's worst with a Scimatar.  

[kevlar]

Quote:
  Simple. A well placed shot of one plasma H and 2 Plasma M will take down a class IX shield in one shot. Even the AI can do it now with the patch. Even the old triple fired 3 Quantum from a Sov with Leg crew couldn't do that. Couple that with cloak and the Rom have an advantage. And that's with the Warbird. It's worst with a Scimatar.  

Want to bet?

shield 9 stops 52 points of damage

A single quantum torp does 13 damage , 19.5 when fully overcharged.  if volleyed  (what increases damage by 25%), that single q-torp will produce  over  22.875 not counting officer bonus damage ( another 25% if I'm not wrong).

Now i'll quote your "Even the old triple fired 3 Quantum from a Sov with Leg crew couldn't do that".

I'll even be a nice guy and consider that from those 3 torps,  only one produced a  multi-volley. You'll have 22.875+ 2(19.5). End result 61.875. And I'm not even adding the damage bonus from officers.

probable counter argument:

"That's wrong cause you don't mention the proximity setting.  That halves the damage !!!!"

K torps, polarons, grav's  and plamas don't have prox settings. That gives the fed the ability to choose the engament distance and to produce a distance fight pattern called saber dance. cool isn't it?  
 BTW, any of the previous torp users will need  to be at a distance of 20 or less if they want to have good chances of hitting ( even less for plasma) . In a less than 20 distance fight i wouldn't use the prox setting.


EDIT: Despite the calcs i do think that the plasma is maybe a bit stronger than what it would be desired. But  upgrading the feds would mena unbalance towards klingons and eve borgs.

Another gooid point that must players forget is that shields operate in a different way now. Before the patch I would reinforce the frontal sheild and any of the other sheilds would be untouched. Now , if I reinforce my class 10 frontal shield, the remaining  ones ( mix between class 8 and class 9) will not resist a  precise overcharged  triple quantum discharge at prox setting.

[Torque]

Try using Klingon warp cores first, then using some front and rear weapons and decent shielding, ...  and  see  what is really underpower!  Unless you cut on  the thruster/impulse,,,   and then the sometimes mentioned klingon racial advantage ( ship agility and speed )  goes down the drain in CA/BH versus the need to power up a decent package of weapons. And klingons still have weaker shields and armor.


 



Yes, but when a Kling ship can cloak and lob Polarion Torps and hit from 40 with damage of 12 (Quant is 13) - The Kling can get off 8 Shots per 7 of the Fed, AND the Polarion can Pierce Shielding ?  Its no wonder why in the hands of good pilots Vorchas can fly at 40+ speed, and blow away any , yes any Fed CA.

If flown right the only thing needed to the rear of a Kling CA is a license plate, IMO.

 

[kevlar]

Polarons have 15% chance of piercing shields. They can't volley ou use prox settings. The chances of 2 torps piercing the shields at the same time isn't that high.

To have a good chance to hit at distance 40, target probably needs to be imobile. I never unleash a polaron discharge at less than 30, and even so  have something like 50/50 chances to hit. And if the target uses evasive manoveurs I'm lucky if one torp hits.

Vorcha's flying at +40 speed probably won't turn very well. And if they turn,   probably don't have class 9 shields also. More like 6 or 7 shields, low armor . low tractor.

Actually the max that my dynaverse vor'cha can achieve is 41.xx.  With a lighter loadout it can probably reach speed  60 or close but then I won't have enough power to overload the weapons - and overloading makes a great difference and must trust  more on AV than on shields .

IMHO the Vor'cha is BY FAR  much better than any Fed CA. Understand it  like  a payback for what the klinks suffer when flying the K'tinga and Fek'lhr against defiants, intrepids and akiras.  It is divine justice for me.


"If flown right the only thing needed to the rear of a Kling CA is a license plate, IMO."

That was in the past. Try facing good roms pilots without rear weapons and tell me the result latter. Don't forget that now the max you can pull is 2 successive HET's , and after the first one the chances of success are 67-68%.

BTw. I admit that you only need rear weaponry when facing roms. And neglect all that i said if you are talking about GSA or non dynaverse skirmishes.



Good night.

[Wiz33]

  Where are you going to get the power to overload the Quantums? A Sov that move at anthing over 20 (Max) and can actually turn (.60) will only be able to hold a IX core, even with Leg crew you get 128. Give the ship IX shiled and you are using 125+ and you can't even use all your weapon mass. The Rom don't even need to overload ans if you get a Sci on a one to one, you're dead.

  Another problem with low manuveuring, you need to put Phaser at most hardpoint so you can at least get a few shots in during the time that the Cloak ship is targetable. Not to mention that getting in a 3 Quantum shot is almost impossable against a human player unless he gets stupid.

  Klin player have this advantage too, have you seen the Killer Negvar that they use on Gamespy? 5 Dis IV F front with a Tac and a Pol. Stock shield. Max Warp/Impuse/Thrust. It's fast, manueveurable, overpowered and deadly.  

[CynicForever]

The problem with the feds is not about weapon mass limits(though the nebula is horrible), or even engine mass limits. The problem is power consumption and hardpoints.

In the Battlecruiser and Dreadnought classes, the feds don't improve. they only have 3 fwd firing primaries. Only on the Sovereign is there 3 fwd heavy hardpoints(not including the defiant here). Vs. the neg, wich can mount 5 fwd primaries and 2 fwd heavies, the Warbird wich can mount 5 fwd primaries and 3 fwd heavies, or the Sphere prime wich can mount 4 fwd primaries and 2 fwd heavies(not including the slightly off fwd/side heavies). Yet, for mounting on average 2 less primary weapons, there is also no real energy surplus. The neg, sphere, and warbird has plenty of spare power when using the legendary officers. With battlecruisers, its the same deal pretty much.

The fed ships suffer from a lack of power surpluss, less weapon variety, and inferior power to damage conversion. The battlecruisers and dreadnoughts also suffer from lack of fwd weapon mounts. Additional side mounts DON'T make up for this, and really is a disadvantage overall. I tried mounting the side mounts on a fed ship. But with their terrible turn rate, and lack of power, all they did was suck up power from the fwd weapons.

Stronger armor and shields don't make up for this either, because they aren't that much stronger than Klingon equivalents. The advantage translates into maybe 1 to 2 extra shots can be absorbed, but with the most enemy ships, that's not a problem at all.

The patch didn't really hurt the feds too much, it just fixed problems with the romulans, and brought them to an almost equal footing with the Klingons. The problem is that the Federation is just not balanced well at all.

I have played all 4 races extensively online. I know their strengths and weakness's. And the feds are the weakest race I played. The only tactic that really works with the feds is too mount all am mines. Of course, to most of you, I'm just a "whiney" fed. To that, I say, try actually flying fed for awhile. Get a fully loaded sov, then take on a human neg. The only time I won against a neg was when I tractored him and mined him to death. Every other tactic I used failed horribly, most times I couldn't even penetrate the shields before I was down to half a hull.

[Cleaven]

None of this touches on why it should be the Feds who have to have  the weapons systems which are "to be feared". Instead (probably valid) issues of game balance are cited. Is there a valid reason to have a weapon "to be feared" for any race and if so why shouldn't it be the Borg who have it? What are the reasons for choosing a race to receive such a weapon system?  

[Wiz33]

  Borg instill fear just by their presence. Getting jumped by 3 human Sphere Prime will cause fear even if you are in a Sov Fleet, not to mention getting tractor by one of them. Finding youself in the firing arc of Rom Plasma just as they charge up are to be feared. A Klng with Ion and Pol are to be feared. But nobody fear facing a Fed with Quantums.  

 

[SSCF Hooch]

Quote:
None of this touches on why it should be the Feds who have to have  the weapons systems which are "to be feared". Instead (probably valid) issues of game balance are cited. Is there a valid reason to have a weapon "to be feared" for any race and if so why shouldn't it be the Borg who have it? What are the reasons for choosing a race to receive such a weapon system?  

Cleaven,

Please don't over-state my comment.

Gheeesih!

 ALL I meant was this   , I have a healthy respect for plasma so I manuver to aviod it. I have yet to see a human enemy have the slightest concern for photons, prox, normal, or over loaded. They are a joke unless I am lucky enough to catch the cloaked ship in the act of cloaking or un-cloaking and land at least one solid hit with one.

Look, you have yet to even comment on the fact that I did say the patch did good for the game. It's all about balance right? Well I get to have my opionion too, and that one is that Federation ships are now at a dis-advantage.

Either make the Federation a healthy weapon, or make anit-cloak better, or allow blind fire. I will be happy with any one of the three. I would prefer better cloak detection to be honest. A photon that gets my enemy's respect is just another suggestion.

Hooch

Hooch    

[Draco]

Quote:
The battlecruisers and dreadnoughts also suffer from lack of fwd weapon mounts. Additional side mounts DON'T make up for this, and really is a disadvantage overall. I tried mounting the side mounts on a fed ship. But with their terrible turn rate, and lack of power, all they did was suck up power from the fwd weapons.

I feel this is an example of using a ship for something it was not made for. You say that the sov suffers from a lack of forward arcs? Take a look at the rear end of it, 5 primaries and 3 heavies. Put your weapons in the back and make like a porcupine. Lastly with the ships that have the side weapons, load only those and orbit your target. If you keep turning with it you?ll keep the AV relatively low, when you expect to be fired upon make a sharp turn the other way to jack up the AV. They would do well as ships configured to stay away from the actual battle site and bombard the enemy from a distance while someone else goes in close.  

[Cleaven]

Quote:


Cleaven,

Please don't over-state my comment.

Gheeesih!

 ALL I meant was this   , I have a healthy respect for plasma so I manuver to aviod it. I have yet to see a human enemy have the slightest concern for photons, prox, normal, or over loaded. They are a joke unless I am lucky enough to catch the cloaked ship in the act of cloaking or un-cloaking and land at least one solid hit with one.

Look, you have yet to even comment on the fact that I did say the patch did good for the game. It's all about balance right? Well I get to have my opionion too, and that one is that Federation ships are now at a dis-advantage.

Either make the Federation a healthy weapon, or make anit-cloak better, or allow blind fire. I will be happy with any one of the three. I would prefer better cloak detection to be honest. A photon that gets my enemy's respect is just another suggestion.

Hooch

Hooch    

I think there is a bit of a difference between a healthy weapon, and a weapon to be feared, the latter implying that when you face said weapon, if you don't run away you will die. I question why the Feds (or anybody else) should receive such a weapon.

Regarding the patch, I think it's a great improvement just by fixing the cloak bugs. You think the patch needs some more mods to weapons stats and equipment performance, and that is probably correct. This game will do the best with a bit of iterative fine tuning and that takes a lot of time and effort, which we don't seem to have. Fine tuning does not imply that Feds or anybody needs an unstoppable weapon, so if you didn't want photons to be a weapon to be feared then don't cry out for it.  

[SSCF Hooch]

Quote:

Quote:


Cleaven,

Please don't over-state my comment.

Gheeesih!

 ALL I meant was this   , I have a healthy respect for plasma so I manuver to aviod it. I have yet to see a human enemy have the slightest concern for photons, prox, normal, or over loaded. They are a joke unless I am lucky enough to catch the cloaked ship in the act of cloaking or un-cloaking and land at least one solid hit with one.

Look, you have yet to even comment on the fact that I did say the patch did good for the game. It's all about balance right? Well I get to have my opionion too, and that one is that Federation ships are now at a dis-advantage.

Either make the Federation a healthy weapon, or make anit-cloak better, or allow blind fire. I will be happy with any one of the three. I would prefer better cloak detection to be honest. A photon that gets my enemy's respect is just another suggestion.

Hooch

Hooch    

I think there is a bit of a difference between a healthy weapon, and a weapon to be feared, the latter implying that when you face said weapon, if you don't run away you will die. I question why the Feds (or anybody else) should receive such a weapon.

Regarding the patch, I think it's a great improvement just by fixing the cloak bugs. You think the patch needs some more mods to weapons stats and equipment performance, and that is probably correct. This game will do the best with a bit of iterative fine tuning and that takes a lot of time and effort, which we don't seem to have. Fine tuning does not imply that Feds or anybody needs an unstoppable weapon, so if you didn't want photons to be a weapon to be feared then don't cry out for it.    

Fine, I will say I over stated it to begin with. I was not crying, only making a comment. Please don't pull more words in my mouth, my foot is quite enough.

Hooch