Topic: Star Wars Episode III - SPOILERS ALLOWED

[Iceman]

The Sith were not gone with 6.  Mara Jade was around, she's a pseudo-sith, and there's a few more I think.


Of course, this assumes you choose to include the books (as Lucas has, I might point out).

[Darth Sidious]

I wouldnt consider Mara Jade psuedo-sith.  Force attuned, yes.  Able to use the force for some things, sure.  Tapping the Darkside for everything?  Thats stretching it a bit.

The Sith were not gone with 6.  Mara Jade was around, she's a pseudo-sith, and there's a few more I think.


Of course, this assumes you choose to include the books (as Lucas has, I might point out).

[J. Carney]

Well, once we get past the death of the Emperor, things get kinda sticky. For those familiar with the Expanded Universe (as I am slowly becoming) there are LOTS more dark Force users... and even a couple of Dark Jedi.

The Dark Side never really goes away, just as Dark is never really destroyed by Light. When the Light is removed, the Dark returns. It was never removed, just beaten back.

As long as there are Jedi, there will be the danger of Sith returning as each one has to face the Dark Side and either win or loose his battle with himself.

[Iceman]

I wouldnt consider Mara Jade psuedo-sith.  Force attuned, yes.  Able to use the force for some things, sure.  Tapping the Darkside for everything?  Thats stretching it a bit.

The Sith were not gone with 6.  Mara Jade was around, she's a pseudo-sith, and there's a few more I think.


Of course, this assumes you choose to include the books (as Lucas has, I might point out).

She almost killed Luke a few times. Using the Dark Side. What do you call that? lol

[Clark Kent]

Why did yoda decide to end the duel anyway?  He may have been battered a bit, but it seemed like he was overall winning against sidious.  Not to say he would have won, but he was ahead, and he could have won.

[J. Carney]

Why did yoda decide to end the duel anyway?  He may have been battered a bit, but it seemed like he was overall winning against sidious.  Not to say he would have won, but he was ahead, and he could have won.

In the book (keeping in mind that SW books are canon), it says that Yoda realizes that he is overmatched. The Emperor might not be as strong WITH the Force as Yoda, but he is able to use his more limited abilities better in a fight. In short- Yoda might be wise and skilled, but Palpatine is strong and relentless... and in the end, he just plain would have worn Yoda down.

[Darth Sidious]

Using the darkside in and of itself does not a Sith make.

I wouldnt consider Mara Jade psuedo-sith.  Force attuned, yes.  Able to use the force for some things, sure.  Tapping the Darkside for everything?  Thats stretching it a bit.

The Sith were not gone with 6.  Mara Jade was around, she's a pseudo-sith, and there's a few more I think.


Of course, this assumes you choose to include the books (as Lucas has, I might point out).

She almost killed Luke a few times. Using the Dark Side. What do you call that? lol

[J. Carney]

Using the darkside in and of itself does not a Sith make.

True, Sith are a philosophical bent, just like the Jedi.

But if Obi-wan and Qui-Gon and Anikin can manefest as Force Spirits, why can't Palpatine?

A Dark Side spirit could teach a Dark Side force user in the ways of the Sith just as Obi-Wan taught Luke in the ways of the Jedi.

[Dash Jones]

It's in the idea of the item.  The philosophy is as shown in RotS, that the Sith have the ability to enlongate life here...but it is due to their own selfishness and desire for their own power.  The Jedi, in concern for others cannot save others in the end.  In the end the only one they can really grant the extension of life...or at least spirit...is themselves.

Hence the Sith gain a temporary reprieve from death in this life...but not an extension after death.  The Jedi cannot gain a temporary reprieve from death in this life, but can have an afterlife in an extension in this sphere.

Completely opposite, but the philosophy is there.  Those that help others in the end help themselves...but those that look only to help themselves, though they have the ability to help others...in the end lose everything.

[J. Carney]

Hence the Sith gain a temporary reprieve from death in this life...but not an extension after death.  The Jedi cannot gain a temporary reprieve from death in this life, but can have an afterlife in an extension in this sphere.

Dash...

Do some reading up on Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was a Force Spirit that inhabited a Sith temple on Yavin 4. He became so powerful in the ways of the Sith that he just merged with the Force, a'la Yoda and Obi-Wan. Alive during the Great Hyperspace Wars, his spirit remained active until the time of the Rebellion. There were also reports of Feerdon Nod' spirit surviving after death, and the great Marka Ragnos- last Dark Lord of a united Sith- instructed several Jedi in the ways of Darkness after his death.

(p.123, Darkside Sourcebook, Star Wars RPG, WotC)

[Chris Johnson]

Do some reading up on Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was a Force Spirit that inhabited a Sith temple on Yavin 4. He became so powerful in the ways of the Sith that he just merged with the Force, a'la Yoda and Obi-Wan. Alive during the Great Hyperspace Wars, his spirit remained active until the time of the Rebellion. There were also reports of Feerdon Nod' spirit surviving after death, and the great Marka Ragnos- last Dark Lord of a united Sith- instructed several Jedi in the ways of Darkness after his death.

Heh, I'm glad in the realm of the Expanded Universe that the original, true Dark Lord of the Sith from 4,000 years before the SW Trilogies is still remembered from all the crud the became "Darth This" and "Darth That" from simple video games I never played before (but seem somewhat interesting) that became popular.  Reminds me of Enterprise and all the discussions of what should've been tech level for 22nd Century Earth and all that back in 2001, but I digress...

...I actually liked Episode III, despite how dark it is.  I agree that there were some moments that could've improved, like a yell instead of "Nooo!" and stuff like that (although I would've expected Darth Vader not to be the villain he was in the original trilogy, since we're seeing the "birth" of the Vader we know, developing to the guy that'll hunt down the rest of the Jedi, that'll choke every Imperial blockhead that isn't up to Vader's expectations, that has the attitude we've come to expect from him, etc.).  Some things I cringed at were the Jedi dying.  I didn't know if George wanted to show younglings dying in one way or another, as he show the other Jedi dying (Although I like the Felucia forest and planet Kashykk, pretty-looking SW locations IMHO.), or even Anakin burning alive (I almost thought they'd go with the 1983 version of the Episode III script and have Anakin drop in lava.) like that, it made me cringe.  Thank goodness I had no nightmares about that...  Some of my favorite parts include the beginning, it seemed somewhat campy, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship like "brothers," havin' fun, truely SW-like in spirit, IMHO.

Although I'm not brushed up quite that much on EU stories, wasn't Palpatine's way of being Immortal in this "realm of existance" cloning himself and transferring his energetic existance from one body to another?  (That somewhat reminds me of the Asgard from Stargate: SG-1)  I mean in the EU, not the way Episode III contradicted it.  It was something about Palpatine actually absorbing the dark energy of a Sith Holocron, somehow becoming more powerful, and that he aged rapidly since the power of the Dark Side he had ate up his energy, his life, and that from time to time he had to switch bodies from one cloned version of himself to another... I think it was some explination of how Palpatine came to be a Sith Lord or something, and faced Luke as a younger, cloned version of himself, an old story before the Prequels came out, though...

[Iceman]

There was a clone, but he died. Luke and (I think) Mara Jade killed him when he lost control of a giant Force Storm he created. They basically made the storms eat up his ship. Kinda poetic.

[J. Carney]

Do some reading up on Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was a Force Spirit that inhabited a Sith temple on Yavin 4. He became so powerful in the ways of the Sith that he just merged with the Force, a'la Yoda and Obi-Wan. Alive during the Great Hyperspace Wars, his spirit remained active until the time of the Rebellion. There were also reports of Feerdon Nod' spirit surviving after death, and the great Marka Ragnos- last Dark Lord of a united Sith- instructed several Jedi in the ways of Darkness after his death.

Heh, I'm glad in the realm of the Expanded Universe that the original, true Dark Lord of the Sith from 4,000 years before the SW Trilogies is still remembered from all the crud the became "Darth This" and "Darth That" from simple video games I never played before (but seem somewhat interesting) that became popular.  Reminds me of Enterprise and all the discussions of what should've been tech level for 22nd Century Earth and all that back in 2001, but I digress...

Well, the more I read in the EU (and I'm just getting started), I like the EU. It gives a lot of backstory,and allows a lot of potential for more material- like that TV series *prays for Hyperspace Wars era*.

...I actually liked Episode III, despite how dark it is.  I agree that there were some moments that could've improved, like a yell instead of "Nooo!" and stuff like that (although I would've expected Darth Vader not to be the villain he was in the original trilogy, since we're seeing the "birth" of the Vader we know, developing to the guy that'll hunt down the rest of the Jedi, that'll choke every Imperial blockhead that isn't up to Vader's expectations, that has the attitude we've come to expect from him, etc.).  Some things I cringed at were the Jedi dying.  I didn't know if George wanted to show younglings dying in one way or another, as he show the other Jedi dying (Although I like the Felucia forest and planet Kashykk, pretty-looking SW locations IMHO.), or even Anakin burning alive (I almost thought they'd go with the 1983 version of the Episode III script and have Anakin drop in lava.) like that, it made me cringe.  Thank goodness I had no nightmares about that...  Some of my favorite parts include the beginning, it seemed somewhat campy, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship like "brothers," havin' fun, truely SW-like in spirit, IMHO.

I missed a lot of the lines form the book... especially Vader's lines as he slaughtered the leaders of the CIS on Mustafar... they show that he was TRUELY 'born again hard.'

Lucas knew that showing the younglings actually getting cut up would earn him an R... i don't think it was in the plans. Only youngling that you get to see killed is the one on the balcony.

HAving Vader burn where people could see it made the last scene a LOT more convincing- it was like he spontaniously combusted from the heat of the hate inside him. I found it an excellent touch.

Although I'm not brushed up quite that much on EU stories, wasn't Palpatine's way of being Immortal in this "realm of existance" cloning himself and transferring his energetic existance from one body to another?  (That somewhat reminds me of the Asgard from Stargate: SG-1)  I mean in the EU, not the way Episode III contradicted it.  It was something about Palpatine actually absorbing the dark energy of a Sith Holocron, somehow becoming more powerful, and that he aged rapidly since the power of the Dark Side he had ate up his energy, his life, and that from time to time he had to switch bodies from one cloned version of himself to another... I think it was some explination of how Palpatine came to be a Sith Lord or something, and faced Luke as a younger, cloned version of himself, an old story before the Prequels came out, though...

Yeah, he did clone himself.. several times I don't know the story because I'mn not reading those books right now. I'm going to start on the Han Solo stuff and am looking for some of the 'Golden Age of the Sith' material.'

I think that Ep. III's supernatural explination of how Palpatine stayed alive makes it spookier and more magical, bringing the powers of the Force into sharper relief. I like that version better, personally.

[Chris Johnson]

But it doesn't show the definate power of the Force in my opinion (other than "creating life"), like what I heard about using the Force to make stars go supernova and all that (I think I read that a particular Sith Lord was capable of that, I believe Exar Kun was, just as he was capable of staying put as a spirit at Yavin IV in the Massassi Temple for four millenia), or even the Sith "Thought Bomb" that Sith Lord Kaan used against Jedi Lord Hoth and the Jedi Army of Light at the Battle of Ruusan, although also entraping the spirits of 'em and his Brotherhood of Darkness...  I believe it was Darth Bane who managed to escape from the Thought Bomb 1,000 years before the SW trilogies (And "Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight", to which inspired a couple of novels I believe in the late-1990s, before Episode 1 came out), and formed the "one master, one apprentice" idea (and I hear is truely when Sith Lords started giving each other Darth ____ names, which definately contradicts the KotOR games I previously mentioned).

I guess Star Wars is becoming more and more a mixed bag as far as canon and continuity goes (at times, I enjoy continuity, a nice touch in most sci-fi universes in my opinion), a nice emulation of how Trek works in that area, especially when Enterprise came out four years ago, and how everyone freaked out.  But that doesn't mean it's not good entertainment, to which Star Wars is.  Once again, I enjoyed Episode III a lot...

[J. Carney]

All the reasons you said that Palpatine's immortality doesn't show the power of the Dark SIde are the reasons I want to see a Jedi/vs/Sith TV show set in the distant past of Star Wars.

All the cool stuff happened before the 'Darth' BS.

[Darth Sidious]

Rather than get into an argument of canon v non-canon, i'll say this.

To me, canon is the movies/movie scripts/movie novels/movie radiodramas.  The bread and butter of SW, if you will.
Mostly-Canon:  Things like Clone Wars,  Labyrinth of Evil.  Stuff directly relating to the movies.

Everything else is EU.  And some of the EU is better than the 'canon' bits.  Like Zahn's Trillogy that got the SW novels movement going again in the early 90s.  And some i'd just rather forget entirely.  (Truce at Bakura)

That said.  I'd love to see a KOTOR era TV series.

[Commander La'ra]

Some of the EU stuff rocks.  Zahn's trilogy had me humming the music at many, many points, and Mara Jade is a very plausible, very interesting character.

Others stuff, such as the New Jedi Order books or the books by Kevin J. Anderson, I could do without.

[J. Carney]

Others stuff, such as the New Jedi Order books or the books by Kevin J. Anderson, I could do without.

Did anyone else think that the Yuusong Vong was just Star Wars trying to do the Borg? Or did they come before that?

[Commander La'ra]

I thought they were what happens when you hire R.A. Salvatore to write a novel that takes place in a universe where villians cannot summon demons for the heros to fight.

[Chris Johnson]

Rather than get into an argument of canon v non-canon, i'll say this.

To me, canon is the movies/movie scripts/movie novels/movie radiodramas.  The bread and butter of SW, if you will.
Mostly-Canon:  Things like Clone Wars,  Labyrinth of Evil.  Stuff directly relating to the movies.

Everything else is EU.  And some of the EU is better than the 'canon' bits.  Like Zahn's Trillogy that got the SW novels movement going again in the early 90s.  And some i'd just rather forget entirely.  (Truce at Bakura)

That said.  I'd love to see a KOTOR era TV series.

The "levels of Canon" as I saw 'em and understood 'em (albeit could be wrong) are this (and before I go onto 'em, I stress I'm not arguing, just stating my own opinion and will therefore say no further after this on the subject):

The highest form of true "canon" is the movies and only the movies, and the movie novelizations coming second.  If the movie contradicts its novelization, the movie's version is true, the novel's is false.

The second form of canon in which Lucas claims as a "parallel universe" (one I wouldn't mind having fun with if given a lightsaber and Force Powers) are the Expanded Universe novels.  Anything and everything in this area is to be taken with a grain of salt if you want absolute canon, but I believe there's a "canon" of its own due to the stress of continuity, despite some inconsistancies.  The EU canon includes stuff like Ragnos from 5,000 years before the trilogies, people like Exar Kun and Nomi Sunrider 4,000 years ago, the Battle of Ruusan 1,000 years before the Trilogies, Darth ___ and stuff like "one master, one apprentice" from 1,000 years before to the Trilogies themselves, in-between or just-before novels involving people like Darth Maul's adventures before Episode 1, Quinlan Vos stories, the Clone Wars novels, or even the Han Solo trilogy of novels, to beyond the Triology with Luke and "first of the new Jedi" and leading up to the new Jedi Temple at Massassi on Yavin IV, or Thrawn or cloned Emperor Palpatine, Kyle Katarn becoming an EU character from novelizations of the Dark Forces games coming into EU continuity, or even the Yuuzhan Vong (Introduced in 1999), and so on and so fourth.  Whilst seperated from the actual movies that felt free to contradict the EU, it is still very much in continuity.

Here's where my knowledge of Wars canon shaking, especially in recent years, like from 2003-on.  Whether popular or not, most every comic or video game (including KotOR 1/2, or even the Jedi Knight games after Dark Forces II) is of even lesser canon, or even not at all canon.  People like Darth Malak or Revan, events such as "Assaj's death" in the Clone Wars by Anakin Skywalker on Yavin IV, the all-too early introduction of Grievous, the "Valley of the Jedi"'s power once again becoming true (despite the fact that the spirits of Jedi and Sith from the Battle of Ruusan were freed and the Valley's power nullified at the end of the Dark Forces novels) in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast, the Infinities stories, and so on and so fourth... I believe them to be of even a "lesser canon" or even not at all due to how contradicting they are in continuity with the EU.

To summarize, the "absolute canon" are the two trilogies and the novelizations of 'em (The Trilogy standing above the novelizations and contradicting them at times).  The "EU canon" being outside of the Trilogy, but still a level of its own considering the extreme continuity it tries preserving from time to time, and the non-canon being most anything else, from the Christmas Special to KotOR 2.

Again, I stress that you should take my memory with a grain of salt, that you shouldn't view my post as an argument, but rather an belief of mine on this subject through some observation (but not my opinion on canon), and that I could be wrong on these "levels of canon".  Ultimately, I have the same opinion of canon on Star Wars as I do on Star Trek (which is why--on my signature--I quoted Bernd Schneider on the view of Trek canon since I agree with him), even though it's sometimes fun to try and analyze the levels of canon and see how continuity is kept intact in Star Wars EU.