Topic: Star Wars Episode III - SPOILERS ALLOWED

[Darth Sidious]

This is a SPOILERS thread.  If you dont want to read spoilers for SW:EP3 Movie OR Book, dont read the rest of this thread.

[Darth Sidious]

Ok, couple things to start with.

No offense to Natalie - but the acting was horribly wooden.  It's probably just Lucas, but considering the rest of the movie - nobody else gets such crappy lines.
.....


Mace V Sidious.  Ever think that Sids was faking losing to draw Anakin in?  Especially considering how quickly he unleashed hell on Mace after Mace was de-handed by Anakin?
The facemelt scene was cool... even though i think it was done the way it was so that the general audience would get conclusive proof that Palpatine WAS Sidious, hideous face and all.


Obi/Anakin v Dooku.  RUSHED.  VERY RUSHED.  The book gives Dooku a bit of internal monologue describing what was happenind - including being totally faked out by Obi/Anakin's lightsabre styles.  Totally missing from the movie.

Grevious:  Coolness, plain and simple.  Even if he does go out like a punk.

THE DUEL:  Awesome beyond belief.... EXCEPT for Anakin's last jump.  OBI's lines right after Anakin gets de-limbed were by far the best in the entire movie... maybe even the entire 6 movies (save the classic one liners).

Yoda v Sidous:  Close match.  Yoda held his own for the most part - choosing to lose/fall away rather than continue the fight.  The Novel explains this. 

Opening Spacebattle:  I actually prefered the battle over Endor better.  Very pretty, but not much else.

Water Ballet:  Didya catch Lucas as Baron Papanoida?

The Reveal:  Better in the book, even though the circling camera angles was awesome.  Palpatine reveals that he's Sids in the book (by saying... Before I killed him) rather than let Anakin tumble it out for himself.

[AcePylut]

Mace V Sidious. Ever think that Sids was faking losing to draw Anakin in? Especially considering how quickly he unleashed hell on Mace after Mace was de-handed by Anakin?

That’s exactly what I thought.  “Fake” losing, offer up himself to Anni as the only salvation for Padme, forcing Anni to choose.

Grevious: Coolness, plain and simple. Even if he does go out like a punk.

I thought his chronic bronchitis was unnecessary, and his voice was such that it was kinda difficult to hear what he was saying.

Final Battle:  Awesome beyond belief.... EXCEPT for Anakin's last jump. OBI's lines right after Anakin gets de-limbed were by far the best in the entire movie...

I dug Anni’s jump.  Like how Obi squeezed in “I win, I control the high ground, don’t do it” right before it happened.  But here’s what I’m going to have to watch for the next time I see this movie (later tonite).  Anni’s right hand is the one that got cut-off in Attack of the Clones, but wasn’t cut off in Sith.  When anni jumped and got de-limbed, was he holding the light sabre in the right hand or left hand?  If right hand, does the movie show Anni “losing” the lightsabre or was it clutched in the left hand when Obi picked it up.  I can’t remember.

And yes, the “chosen” one speech imho was the best lines and the best acting in the entire series.

I wish the “turning” scene was a little longer.  I kinda felt that scene should have been drawn out a little more.  Lets face it…. Anni turning to the dark side is one of the three or four focal points of the entire series.  Hayden has the acting talent to carry a scene such as that and visibly show the internal conflict before falling to the dark side, I felt it should have been a couple minutes longer of on-screen “decision making” before going bad. 

When Vader cries out at Padme’s death… I didn’t feel there was a lot of emotion in there, when there should have been.  But I dug how the camera panned over to an evilly grinning Emperor.  That really cemented the Emperor being the “all-evil” force of the universe. 

But in a way, this movie kinda took away from vadar being the “ultimate badass” and kinda made him a “confused conflicted dude with a superhigh midichloran count”.  Necessary for his conversion to the Light Side in Jedi, but not exactly the image of a Sith Lord of being inherently evil to the bone.

[Darth Sidious]

The Clone Wars 2nd Season explains Grevious' coughing.  Long story short, Mace crushes his chest with the Force just as the good General is escaping Coruscant with Palpatine.

Grevious: Coolness, plain and simple. Even if he does go out like a punk.

I thought his chronic bronchitis was unnecessary, and his voice was such that it was kinda difficult to hear what he was saying.

[J. Carney]

OK, I WAS NOT impressed with the overall acting in the movie.

Natale Portman has a face that was made for the big screen, but her acting abilities would be more at home in porno. She was TERRIBLE- I've had girlfriends that were more convincing actresses. She didn't fool me into thinking that crying was genuine for one second.

And going down that ramp at a full trot at 9 months? You gotta be kidding me!!!

All in all, C3PO did a FAR better job in the acting department.


Now for the rest of the movie, which is very redeaming in the face of the nightmare that is Ms. Portman.

The lightsaber sequences were absolutely STUNNING. They aren't as good as what you can imagine from reading the book, but then agian your imagination does a better job of setting the scene than human actors with human limitations ever can.

General Grevious was well done, and I liked the fact that he seemed to have been rescued from death's door, and was now lingering on the threshold in that droid body, hoping to finish his task of destroying the Republic. The lightsaber fight was a lot like the book- though far abriviated.

The mass battle scenes- both in space and on land- were awesome. The ships were all well designed, and the Vigilence(?)-class Star Destroyers gave a real sense of design heritage. The fighter combat kinda got lost in the big fight scenes- buit that's a good thing. Small details do get lost in big battles... even if they are what you are TRYING to focus one. Nice attempt at trying to throw the confusion of battle into the movie.


Also, it was nice to get a peak at some of the characters in the original series and how they got to where they were in Ep. IV.


The best lines IMO, got left out. I'll save those particular transgressions for a few days from now when most have seen it. EDIT: Now that we have a spoilers thread, here are those issues:

I couldn't believe that Palpatine's best lines in the book weren't in there. They cut out the WHOLE conversation in the Chansellor's office. When he tells Anikin "You wouldn't kill me over a philosophical difference" or "When I told you you could have anything that you wanted, did you think that excluded my life" really set the stage for Vader's undying (or would that be 'undead') devotion to the Emperor... and strangely a devotion to Vader by Palpatine.

Also, where R2 and 3P0 are talking at the appartment right before Mustafar and you actually get to hear R2 complaingin that "I never get told ANYTHING"... that was one of the funniest parts of the whole book, at least to me. Having that pop up on the starfighter's screen wasn't practical from the angle we were at in that shot, but it woud have been nice.

Also, some of Anikin's best 'born again hard' lines were in the Command Center at Mustafar- and all that was just 'saber slinging in the movie. In the book, he get's some pretty snappy comebacks to a all the whining and begging- like this:

Woman: "The Emperor said that we'd be rewarded handsomely!"
Skywalker: "Don't you find me handsome?" and he beheads her.

All in all, I'm satisfied, but I won't be making a return trip.

[Darth Sidious]

I think the flippant comments from Vader on Mustafar being cut was a good thing.  It really wasnt the time for the audience to be cracking up as each leader of the Confederacy was brutally killed.

That said, the comments were hillarious

[J. Carney]

I think the flippant comments from Vader on Mustafar being cut was a good thing.  It really wasnt the time for the audience to be cracking up as each leader of the Confederacy was brutally killed.

That said, the comments were hillarious

Well, since Vader was supposed to be the worst of the worst, I think that the scene would have been a really good 'fleshing out' of just HOW twisted Anikin had become. He's not only brutally killing these (arguably) innocent people... he's ENJOYING it, and even perhaps trying to make it even more horrible for them, because the worse it is for them, the more he savors it.

For me, it was the equivelent of taking Hannibal Lechter's immortal 'fava beens and a nice chianti' line and reducing it to 'yep, I ate him.'

[Iceman]

Mace V Sidious. Ever think that Sids was faking losing to draw Anakin in? Especially considering how quickly he unleashed hell on Mace after Mace was de-handed by Anakin?

That’s exactly what I thought.  “Fake” losing, offer up himself to Anni as the only salvation for Padme, forcing Anni to choose.

Grevious: Coolness, plain and simple. Even if he does go out like a punk.

I thought his chronic bronchitis was unnecessary, and his voice was such that it was kinda difficult to hear what he was saying.

Final Battle:  Awesome beyond belief.... EXCEPT for Anakin's last jump. OBI's lines right after Anakin gets de-limbed were by far the best in the entire movie...

I dug Anni’s jump.  Like how Obi squeezed in “I win, I control the high ground, don’t do it” right before it happened.  But here’s what I’m going to have to watch for the next time I see this movie (later tonite).  Anni’s right hand is the one that got cut-off in Attack of the Clones, but wasn’t cut off in Sith.  When anni jumped and got de-limbed, was he holding the light sabre in the right hand or left hand?  If right hand, does the movie show Anni “losing” the lightsabre or was it clutched in the left hand when Obi picked it up.  I can’t remember.

Obi-Wan picks it Anakins sabre as he walks away. I'm almost positive I saw it, it was like a 1/2 second shot. More an afterthought. It was on the ground though, Anakin lost it.

[AcePylut]

Ah ya, I think I didn't explain myself clearly.  I saw Obi pick it up, that's not in question.

What I was questioning is was... Anni's "right handed" if I remember correctly... before he jumped, was the lightsabre in his right or left hand?  I don't recall if it was in his right hand or left hand.  If it was in his right hand (the metal one that wasn't cut off), how did the sabre "come loose"?  If it was in his left hand, mystery solved... it came loose when his left arm got chopped.

I'll know by Monday when I see it again this weekend.  I'll be watching for it.  Then again, I might have to wait for the DVD so I can frame advance it. 

Perhaps this is the "Han shot Greedo before Greedo fired" mistake of RotS

[Iceman]

Does it really matter? I mean, getting your legs literally cut out from under me would make me drop what I'm holding.

Kinda interesting though.

[Just plain old Punisher]

I watched it last night, when JAR JAR first appeared in the scene after the battle for corscant everyone in the theatre groaned. lol

[Iceman]

Yeah, same here.

[J. Carney]

Ah ya, I think I didn't explain myself clearly.  I saw Obi pick it up, that's not in question.

What I was questioning is was... Anni's "right handed" if I remember correctly... before he jumped, was the lightsabre in his right or left hand?  I don't recall if it was in his right hand or left hand.  If it was in his right hand (the metal one that wasn't cut off), how did the sabre "come loose"?  If it was in his left hand, mystery solved... it came loose when his left arm got chopped.

I'll know by Monday when I see it again this weekend.  I'll be watching for it.  Then again, I might have to wait for the DVD so I can frame advance it. 

Perhaps this is the "Han shot Greedo before Greedo fired" mistake of RotS

I think that his saber was in his left and hewas using his right to run the little platform he was on. Not sure, but I THINK that was it.

IF not, you can always let reality creep in a bit and say that he was in so much pain that he dropped his saber again, like on Grevious's ship.

[KnightAdvancer]

Perhaps someone can help me understand the last bit at the end? So was Yoda the apprentince that slew Darth Plaguey the 'Wise' or was it Qui Gon Jinn?

Also, this movie convinced me that Vader and Sidious are chump Sith Lords. Malak and Revan, they're some Lord's for ya. When will we get some movies about them? Not that I didn't enjoy this one, but I am eager to explore other timelines and sagas in this universe on the big screen.

[Iceman]

It was Sidious, I believe. I don't think they come right out and say it.

Yeah, I also get the feeling the Jedi of the Star Wars movie series are kinda pansies.

In KOTORII, there's a line like "If you could have seen the Jedi of old battle, you'd realized we are merely children playing with toys." in reference to lightsaber combat. That was 5,000 years before "A New Hope"...so take that for what its worth.

[J. Carney]

Perhaps someone can help me understand the last bit at the end? So was Yoda the apprentince that slew Darth Plaguey the 'Wise' or was it Qui Gon Jinn?

Palpatine was the one that slew Darth Palagious, killing him as he slept to become the Sith Master. Plagious was his Master, and tought Palpatine how to artificially preserve life. Palpatine is in his 60's* in Episode III (IIRC) and this means he's into his 90's by Return of the Jedi. His continued verility at such an advanced age, like his walking fine without his cane when he wishes, or being able to fry a 20-something Jedi with Force Lightening with no real problem, is a result of that knowledge.

*Actually, we're never told how old he is. He could be CENTURIES old, I'm just going on how old he LOOKS.

Also, this movie convinced me that Vader and Sidious are chump Sith Lords. Malak and Revan, they're some Lord's for ya. When will we get some movies about them? Not that I didn't enjoy this one, but I am eager to explore other timelines and sagas in this universe on the big screen.

Malak and Revan aren't chumps?

Revan was captuerd by an upstart of half his power and experience, turned from the Dark Side and then used agianst his old apprentice, COMPLETELY without his own knowledge. And when he DID find out that he had an entire empire he could have ruled- and used to conqure the Galaxy- he decided 'Nah, I think I'll stick it out as a good guy.'

That's pretty easilly manipulated and fairly chumpish, IMHO

Malak... well, he couldn't even kill his own master. Vader manages to do that without even really calling on the Force. Sidious (Palpatine) was smart enough to catch his master sleeping and kill him, thereby negating the chance for failure.


Who's the chumps now.


Note- this wasn't meant to be inflamitory, just to show my opinion. However, since I have a really good suit of "+2 Asbestous Armor of Anti-Flaming", feel free to take offense and rail agianst me if you so choose.

[KnightAdvancer]

In KOTORII, there's a line like "If you could have seen the Jedi of old battle, you'd realized we are merely children playing with toys." in reference to lightsaber combat. That was 5,000 years before "A New Hope"...so take that for what its worth.

Or to the effect of, anyway. Kreia was speaking with regards to Lightsaber skills.

Palpatine was the one that slew Darth Palagious, killing him as he slept to become the Sith Master. Plagious was his Master, and tought Palpatine how to artificially preserve life. Palpatine is in his 60's* in Episode III (IIRC) and this means he's into his 90's by Return of the Jedi. His continued verility at such an advanced age, like his walking fine without his cane when he wishes, or being able to fry a 20-something Jedi with Force Lightening with no real problem, is a result of that knowledge.

*Actually, we're never told how old he is. He could be CENTURIES old, I'm just going on how old he LOOKS.

Ah, thanks. The movie was moving pretty fast, and I haven't read the book (always read the book last.) Guess I got it jumbled up.

Malak and Revan aren't chumps?

Revan was captured by an upstart of half his power and experience, turned from the Dark Side and then used against his old apprentice, COMPLETELY without his own knowledge. And when he DID find out that he had an entire empire he could have ruled- and used to conquer the Galaxy- he decided 'Nah, I think I'll stick it out as a good guy.'

That's pretty easilly manipulated and fairly chumpish, IMHO Roll Eyes

Malak... well, he couldn't even kill his own master. Vader manages to do that without even really calling on the Force. Sidious (Palpatine) was smart enough to catch his master sleeping and kill him, thereby negating the chance for failure.


Who's the chumps now. Wink


Note- this wasn't meant to be inflamitory, just to show my opinion. However, since I have a really good suit of "+2 Asbestous Armor of Anti-Flaming", feel free to take offense and rail agianst me if you so choose. Grin

Sidious feared the Jedi. Hid from them. Talked to Vader in private in how they could potentially destroy them. Tried to flee when Yoda confronted him. Revan did not fear them, never hid from him. He captured them, broke them, made them his followers (the ancient Sith storehouse of knowledge he found on Malachor V probably helped him here in this regard). He crushed the Mandalorians when the Republic gave away before, and then corrupted his own army and began crushing the Republic too. His one mistake was misjudging Malak. He did not expect him to be so bold as to strike against when the Jedi boarded his ship in their desperate last-ditch attempt to stop his onslaught.

Sidious struck down his own master while he was sleeping. Vader toss Sidious into the great black drink, but suffered mortal wounds by doing so. Malak too tried to overthrow his master, using his warship (he knew he couldn't best Revan in personal combat). He took advantage of an opportune moment caused by a last attempt by the Jedi to stop his slaughter. He gets the nod for being decisive, atleast, but it was not Revan's fate to die their. The council needed Revan's power, for his apprentice, Malak, was too strong for them to deal with. They Jedi Council never truely controlled Revan. They gave him a fasle memory, taught him a few things, and set him loose on a road, hoping and praying that this conflict would play out favorably. They knew that they galaxy was in Revan's hands.  In the end, evil Revan lured the Jedi and Republic into a trap at the Star Forge and crushed them, and took Bastila, the sole person, who, due to her Battle Meditation, was able to keep the Republic from being completely overpowered, as his apprentice. Righteous Revan managed to save Bastila from his own corruption, kill Malak at a very heart of the Darkside while feeding off the power of captured Jedi, and then give freedom to the galaxy, even though the galaxy was in his hands. *This* is what makes Revan a truely great Sith Lord, I think.

Kreia, the great Jedi archive keeper, who knew as much as perhaps anyone about the Force and it's histories, declared Revan the greatest Sith Lord that ever lived. In fact, she said, "Revan was power. Looking into his eyes was like looking into the very heart of the force." Sidious hid and plotted like a rat. Vader was a angsty teenager. Revan and Malak were great champions of the Jedi, among their very brightest. They made the Jedi hide from *them.* Revan out-thought and overpowered his enemies (Malak just overpowered), Revan made them his followers (as well as Malak to a lesser degree [he was seemingly more in crushing them]), and Revan had the spirit to resist the darkside (Malak did not, unforunately). Plus, Revan had a really spiffy Darth robe and Malak had his spine-chilling voice. So, yes, Sidious and Vader are chumps.

[J. Carney]

Acrually, I just view Sidious and Vader as a different kind of terrifying. Notice that the Jedi are scared of them, even though they outnumber the Sith several thousand to two.

Both pair are dangerous in their own way.

I'd personally like to see the next movie set in the Golden Age of the Sith... imagine, the Great Hyperspace Wars!!!

[J. Carney]

Ah, thanks. The movie was moving pretty fast, and I haven't read the book (always read the book last.) Guess I got it jumbled up.

Oh, Tremok... READ THE BOOK!!!

IT's FAR better than the movie, there are a lot more cool lines for EVERYONE, especially Anikin/Vader and Palpy in the book... but even Obi-wan gets to play the smartarse on occasion.

[Darth Sidious]

(Book)

Imagine Obi waking up, and the first thing to see is Anakin's behind.

Truely a ROFL moment... especially if you listen to the audiobook reading of it.

[J. Carney]

(Book)

Imagine Obi waking up, and the first thing to see is Anakin's behind.

Truely a ROFL moment... especially if you listen to the audiobook reading of it.

Or at least he THINKS that it's Anikin's butt... having never seen it either that closely or from quite that angle before.

I got a kick out of:

Obi-Wan: "Anikin, where's your lightsaber?'"

Anikin: "Well, master..."

Obi-Wan: "Anikin, you haven't lost it, have you? That lightsaber is your LIFE!"

Anikin: "It's not lost Master, I know exactly where it is." *points at super Jedi-killer battle droid* "He's got it."

[Iceman]

Acrually, I just view Sidious and Vader as a different kind of terrifying. Notice that the Jedi are scared of them, even though they outnumber the Sith several thousand to two.

Both pair are dangerous in their own way.

I'd personally like to see the next movie set in the Golden Age of the Sith... imagine, the Great Hyperspace Wars!!!

I'd pay $20 for a single ticket if they made a movie out of KOTOR. Seriously.

Of others I'd pay good money to see, "I, Jedi" and "Shadows of the Empire"

[J. Carney]

I'd pay $20 for a single ticket if they made a movie out of KOTOR. Seriously.

Of others I'd pay good money to see, "I, Jedi" and "Shadows of the Empire"

Ice, for the theater to get me to pay $20 for a ticket to ANY movie, that cute redhead at the concession stand will have to do something obscenely biological to me when the lights are turned down.

I would consider joining the 'freaks and geeks' squad for a midnight showing of a KOTOR movie, though... as long as I didn't have to work/go to school the next morning. The nutjobs that are in the theater with me had just better remember this when they start waving those Hasbro_(R) lightsbers in my face:
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good Glock at your side."


A 'Golden Age of the Sith' movie- perhaps covering some of the goings-on in the SIth Empire- would also get me in the theater pretty quick. The sight of a batallion of Jedi assaulting the Sith capital... THAT would be a 'WOW' moment!

[jualdeaux]

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good Glock at your side."

Check out my new avatar.

[J. Carney]

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good Glock at your side."

Check out my new avatar.

I caught that... I really like it. Did you do it yourself or find it?

[Jack Morris]

I'd like to see movies made of afterwards, like with Admiral Thrawn, and that other female Admiral who commanded a fleet of four star destroyers. Those were some good books to read while off duty in the field. 

[Iceman]

Isard I believe is the female in question. She had the Lusankya for a while too, before Rogue Squadron an Co. stole it.

Then it got rammed into a Yuzzhan Vong worldship. Kinda cool.

[Firehawk]

I think he means Daala who commanded a group a Star Destroyers guarding the MAW installation and the prototype death star and sun crusher in the Jedi Academy trilogy

[Commander La'ra]

Ah, yeah, I'd already heard the 'Sidious was only setting up Anakin' reasoing.  I don't buy it for the following reasons:

A: I regard Sidious as a smart, effective villian.  Despite the assertion from some posters that he's a 'chump' bad guy, you'll notice that Sidious is the one who actually managed to take over the galaxy.  Sure, he used sneaky, underhanded means to do so, but he succeeded where the other Sith had continually failed.

To accomplish such a goal, he had to be a survivor.  Survivors do not willingly place themselves into a position where random chance can end their existence.  Had a good stiff wind from outside hit Mace as he stood over Sidious half-melted form, the Sith Lords reign would never have come to be.  Same thing if Anakin had gotten stuck in traffic.  Sure the force gives him foresight, but combat situations are fluid; even the Force would not account for all variables that might end up killing the Dark Lord if he deliberately placed himself in a helpless situation.

That's also ruling out Anakin.  Sure, he made the decision to help Sidious, but given the fact that Sidious was the only Sith in the galaxy, I don't think someone as cagey as the future Emperor would be assured enough of Skywalker's decision that he was willing to put himself in front of a bullet to further tempt him when...

B: There was no real advantage in doing so.  Had Sidious killed Mace, he still could've rocked Anakin's world with the phrase 'They just tried to kill me!'  As instantly effective as what happened?  Maybe not, but still a significant victory in the war for Anakin's soul.

Those are the 'motivational' reasons.  The next two are storytelling.

C: The Emperor is more effective as a villian if Mace actually had the advantage.  This is partially related to reason A, but also because it makes the final seduction of Anakin a snap judgement, the immediate and unhesitant exploitation of a situation that dropped into his lap.  If I was the Emperor, I would have been expecting the final victory over Skywalker's good side to take a little longer, and I assume the guy in the movie was moving just as cautiously, which means that, though he did not expect what happened, he immediately took as much benefit from it as he could.

He does the same thing in the Senate chamber, milking his disfigurment for political capital.  Playing possum for Mace kind would ruin the idea that he's so competent, as least as far as I'm concerned.

D: The Emperor learns from his mistakes.  Mace was probably not as powerful as Sidious when it comes to the Force, but he held a key equalizer:  His lightsaber.  Sidious couldn't have been as practiced at swordplay as Windu.  Even with the idea that he was a master lightsaber duelist (and he's clearly good) he's spent the last several years in a situation where it'll be difficult to find time to keep his skills sharp.  Thus, when he is confronted with the bald black man, he loses the sword fight and resorts to his knowledge of the force.  Unfortunately, he does so in a manner than Mace can counter with his lightsaber.

Now here comes the learning part.  Yoda is acknowledged as the Jedi's greatest swordsman.  When Big Evil and Little Green throw down, my general impression is that the Emperor was trying to avoid direct lightsaber action.  Oh sure, they parried and riposted some, but mostly, Sidious tried to turn it into a force duel...a type of conflict he was better equipped to win, as he and Yoda were apparently a nearly-even match in that area.

Hence, he did not repeat the mistake he made with Mace, and fought Yoda to a draw.

I realize of course, that the 'reality' of the situation is entirely up to the viewer, but to me, the Emperor is a much much meaner man looking at it my way.

[J. Carney]

I realize of course, that the 'reality' of the situation is entirely up to the viewer, but to me, the Emperor is a much much meaner man looking at it my way.

'Mean' isn't the word thatI would use to discribe him- 'manipulative' would be better. Palpatine/Sidious is most definately EVIL- and I mean a bottomless pit of undying darkness- but he never really revels in his 'meanness.' If anything, he tries to avoid outright meanness in favor of sneakiness and guile while recognizing that being outright mean will just turn people away from his plans.

[Commander La'ra]

I was using mean in the sense of 'is able to carry out his evil plans successfully' sense...but you're right that I coulda found a better descriptive.

[J. Carney]

I was using mean in the sense of 'is able to carry out his evil plans successfully' sense...but you're right that I coulda found a better descriptive.

Whoops... sorry. *slinks off*

[Commander La'ra]

No, really, you were right...I was just expounding on my word choice.

[Jack Morris]

Not enough attention given to how Anakin gave in so easily to the dark side. I also did not believe the part where Anakin killed Count Dooku (Who surely would have spilled the beans on Palpatine) so easily when he was still on the light side of the force.

The droid General ROCKED, and should have easily been able to kill Obi-Wan, IMO. 4 lightsabers and Jedi training vs 1 lightsaber and a Jedi? Come on George, do better than that.

The killing off of the Jedi, especially the masters, again, come on, they could sense something beforehand I'm sure, I mean you do not get voted to sit on the council for nothing ya know? I would have believed Anakin hunting them down and murdering them more than just a stupid trooper or a couple of them.

Yoda? What can ya say? He always steals the show.

I too was disappointed with Mace's death, again it was the "it's not the Jedi way" thingy, so why did Anakin kill one Sith after telling Palpatine it's not right, yet turn around and tell Mace what he was doing was not right?

All in all, great scenes, but as J.C. and others point out, there is too much info missing. I do not know why, I just do not feel a closeness to the characters as in the very first 3 SW films from years and years ago, except for Obi-Wan and Yoda.

[J. Carney]

Not enough attention given to how Anakin gave in so easily to the dark side. I also did not believe the part where Anakin killed Count Dooku (Who surely would have spilled the beans on Palpatine) so easily when he was still on the light side of the force.

The droid General ROCKED, and should have easily been able to kill Obi-Wan, IMO. 4 lightsabers and Jedi training vs 1 lightsaber and a Jedi? Come on George, do better than that.

The killing off of the Jedi, especially the masters, again, come on, they could sense something beforehand I'm sure, I mean you do not get voted to sit on the council for nothing ya know? I would have believed Anakin hunting them down and murdering them more than just a stupid trooper or a couple of them.

Yoda? What can ya say? He always steals the show.

I too was disappointed with Mace's death, again it was the "it's not the Jedi way" thingy, so why did Anakin kill one Sith after telling Palpatine it's not right, yet turn around and tell Mace what he was doing was not right?

All in all, great scenes, but as J.C. and others point out, there is too much info missing. I do not know why, I just do not feel a closeness to the characters as in the very first 3 SW films from years and years ago, except for Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Read the book, Jack. It'll fill in the blanks. In fact, if it's not too much to get it there (whereever there is), I'll send you my copy. The book shows so much behind the scenes stuff that a movie leaves out in it's limited time frame.

[J. Carney]

OK, as for the "How old is Palpatine/Sidious" and "Was it the fight that scared his face, or the Dark Side" questions, I found this interview- http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=palps8zt.jpg- over on the Star Wars D20 forums.

It basically says that Sidious is playing a part when he's Palpatine, he's not even acting like the person that he was before he became a Sith. It insinuates that Sidious is extremey old and that his face is twisted by his evil.

Just a little FYI for you guys.

[jualdeaux]

I did notice one thing that seemed to not be canon. In Return of the Jedi, when Luke was leaving the group on the ewok planet, he had that conversation with Leia. In it, he asked her if she remembers her mother. She replies yes, but not much. She was very beautiul but always really sad. How could she remember her mother if her mother died in childbirth?

The one place that I noticed that canon was upheld rather nicely, was at the end of Sith when they had C3P0's memory erased. That explains why R2 knew things that 3P0 didn't.

Oh, they took almost 20 years to build the first Death Star, but only 4 to get the second one fully operational, albeit missing half the superstructure.

I know, picky, picky. But as a Star Trek fan aren't we supposed to notice these little things? 

[J. Carney]

I did notice one thing that seemed to not be canon. In Return of the Jedi, when Luke was leaving the group on the ewok planet, he had that conversation with Leia. In it, he asked her if she remembers her mother. She replies yes, but not much. She was very beautiul but always really sad. How could she remember her mother if her mother died in childbirth?

The one place that I noticed that canon was upheld rather nicely, was at the end of Sith when they had C3P0's memory erased. That explains why R2 knew things that 3P0 didn't.

Oh, they took almost 20 years to build the first Death Star, but only 4 to get the second one fully operational, albeit missing half the superstructure.

I know, picky, picky. But as a Star Trek fan aren't we supposed to notice these little things? 

Well to quote Yoda "Strong with the Force, this one is." Perhaps she has this little 'flashbulb memory' that was left as some kind of imprint because of the strong emotions Padme was sending out at that moment. Vader and Luke seem to be able to reed each other's moods like that; why can't it work for girls, too?

The 3P0 memory wipe does explain a lot; how R2 knew which way to go to get towards civilization on Tatooine (he just got busted before he got there), or how R2 knows Obi-Wan. I do agree with them wiping his memory, though... Vader would have found out about the kids in a microsecond if they didn't shut his yap.

And who's to say that they weren't working on BOTH Death Stars simultaniously, one was started, worked on, flaws were found, and then another was started built with improvements and corrections included while the first was being completed.

[Iceman]

I did notice one thing that seemed to not be canon. In Return of the Jedi, when Luke was leaving the group on the ewok planet, he had that conversation with Leia. In it, he asked her if she remembers her mother. She replies yes, but not much. She was very beautiul but always really sad. How could she remember her mother if her mother died in childbirth?

I always took it as she was talking about her adopted mother. That's my take on it. That's why Luke never had any recollection, either.

[jualdeaux]

Since you are trying to come up with possible explainations for things, if R2 and 3PO were known very well by Obi-Wan, why did Obi-an not recognize them in A new Hope when Luke was recused by Ben from the Sand People? Huh, huh? Explain that one all knowing J. Carney! LOL

 

I did notice one thing that seemed to not be canon. In Return of the Jedi, when Luke was leaving the group on the ewok planet, he had that conversation with Leia. In it, he asked her if she remembers her mother. She replies yes, but not much. She was very beautiul but always really sad. How could she remember her mother if her mother died in childbirth?

I always took it as she was talking about her adopted mother. That's my take on it. That's why Luke never had any recollection, either.

But why would Luke be asking about Leia's step mother?

[J. Carney]

Since you are trying to come up with possible explainations for things, if R2 and 3PO were known very well by Obi-Wan, why did Obi-an not recognize them in A new Hope when Luke was recused by Ben from the Sand People? Huh, huh? Explain that one all knowing J. Carney! LOL

In the book, Obi-Wan displays a little more depth, and that depth includes a trait that the original character in the first trilogy displayed, almost in spades- Droids are just objects. They are tools, and certianly useful ones, but nothing to be overly concerned about.


I mean, you don't remember every different firearm that you've handled in the course of your life, or every wrench, rachet, socket, or attachment that it takes to work on the engine in your car.

There are kids that you went to school with for a decade that you smooth forget 25 years down the road.


That's what happened to Obi-Wan. Oh, I'm sure if you poked and prodded and made him dig around in his brain he'd remember that Anikin always had this opinonated, loud-mouthed astromech that he treated like a sentient being which constantly followed him around... but I doubt that he could pick IT out of a lineup, anymore than I could pick my first M-16 out of a lineup.


There's your logical explination...TAKE THAT!!!

[Harlax]

I will take the advice given many times and read the book.

You know this made more sense with LOTR where books were turned into a movie.  But when a movie is made into a book and you have to read the book to have the movie make sense.........   

[J. Carney]

I will take the advice given many times and read the book.

You know this made more sense with LOTR where books were turned into a movie.  But when a movie is made into a book and you have to read the book to have the movie make sense.........   

Actually, the book was released a month or so BEFORE the movie, and it was written BASED ON the script, not TAKEN FROM the script. The author takes osme liberties with the book, adding in things that the more stringent time limits of a movie couldn't handle.

But since in the Star Wars Universe (as opposed to Trek) the books are canon as well, the book becomes a sort of 'behind the scenes documentary.'

[Dash Jones]

I thought in the SW universe the books were canon...unless contradicted by Lucas...and as far as canon...you have 'official' canon which is everything that Lucas puts in the movies...and the EU canon which includes movies, TV and books?

[J. Carney]

I thought in the SW universe the books were canon...unless contradicted by Lucas...and as far as canon...you have 'official' canon which is everything that Lucas puts in the movies...and the EU canon which includes movies, TV and books?

That's precisely what I said, Dash- they are canon UNLIKE Trek books.:

But since in the Star Wars Universe (as opposed to Trek) the books are canon as well, the book becomes a sort of 'behind the scenes documentary.'

[jualdeaux]

Sheesh. You guys will go to any lengths to make something coherent. Just to continue the devils advocate position here. You mentioned that you woulndn't remember, and Obi-Wan as well, things from 25 years ago. Even if that same droid pulled your chestnuts out of the fire as many times as R2 did? Let alone having the same name, appearence and personality of the droid in the past? I would remember something like that. And as a jedi, I'm sure Ben had a very good memory.

[Dash Jones]

Ah, but Ben never said he didn't know R2 if I recall...he just said..."I never remember owning a droid."  Which technically is correct, since R2 was Padme's...though Annakin used him from time to time.

[Dash Jones]

Here's something that I've thought about.  Palpatine said that the Sith had figured out how to direct the Midichlorians in order to create life...and preserve it.  Is it possible then, that it was in fact Palpatine who instigated the Birth of Annakin through the force?

Addendum to clarify:  Hence it wasn't really part of the prophecy at all, or wasn't his intention...even if it turned out something like it?

[Tus-XC]

he actually said his master knew how, and specifically mentioned that was so in touch w/ the force that he created life (or somthing along them lines)...   makes ya wonder now don't it

o and as for the proficy bit, i thought it cleared it up quite well when they were talking to yoda about annakin and that they could be wrong (which would make sense, it didn't appear like the force was all that out of balance during the first 2, but once we get darth and the jedi are all but wiped out , well then i would say that is way out wack and thus we get luke to correct that problem)

[AcePylut]

Here's something that I've thought about.  Palpatine said that the Sith had figured out how to direct the Midichlorians in order to create life...and preserve it.  Is it possible then, that it was in fact Palpatine who instigated the Birth of Annakin through the force?

Addendum to clarify:  Hence it wasn't really part of the prophecy at all, or wasn't his intention...even if it turned out something like it?

There must be balance bewteen good and evil, and the ol balance scales were tipped to "good" until Anni came along.

Too bad the Jedi Council didn't realize what balance actually was... from a certain point of view.

[Jack Morris]

You did catch the final words of Yoda to Obi-Wan, saying his old Jedi trainer had figured out a way to communicate to living beings from beyond death? That gives explanation as to how Obi-Wan really did not give up the fight between him and Anakin on the Death Star, but instead knew he would be of better use to Luke by having and using that power.

All in all a good movie, I'm not sure if it was the best of them all, I think it would have been if they had made it 4 hours long and done a bit more explaining, also some of the scenes between Anakin and Padme could have been skipped, if I had known about those scenes I would have used them for a quick run to the restroom. 

Winner of all time Sci-Fi? Star Wars so far, definately. For storyline and characters in Sci-Fi? Star Trek. Winner of Fantasy and having a more feel for the characters along the story in the movies? LOTR, no competition. IMO...

[J. Carney]

it didn't appear like the force was all that out of balance during the first 2,

REALLY?

Not out of balance? Thousands of good Jedi running around and only two Sith?
Can two pounds of lead ever balance out a ton of gold?

When Luke faces Vader, there is perfect balance to the force:

2 good Force users- Luke and Leia (she uses the Force, though she's unaware of doing so: "He's not dead, I can feel it")

2 evil Force users- Vader and Palpatine

In that final competition, the scales are perfectly matched, and balance is brought to the Force through Anikin's actions (having children and killing the rest of the Jedi).

[Commander La'ra]

Obi-Wan never seemed to like to lie.  When faced with an uncomfortable situation most people would lie about, he'd evade the issue by either speaking the literal truth without any expounding on his part or say how he saw things which might not be the more usual interpretation.

So, when he says 'I don't recall owning a Droid', he says it so he doesn't have to say to Luke 'Oh yes, that droid belonged to your mother and father, and is the only non-Jedi in the galaxy that knows the full truth behind your father turning to evil and that we plan to have you kill him'.

Least that's how I read it.

[J. Carney]

Obi-Wan never seemed to like to lie.  When faced with an uncomfortable situation most people would lie about, he'd... say how he saw things which might not be the more usual interpretation.

Sound like any pointy-eared science officers that we know?

[Commander La'ra]

Yes it does, actually.

Fascinating...*raises eyebrow*

[Iceman]

Someone was talking about the Sith being able to generate life...I think that was just Palpatine making crap up to seduce Anakin. That's just my thought. I mean, really, if Sidious could live forever, what would he need Anakin for?

[J. Carney]

Someone was talking about the Sith being able to generate life...I think that was just Palpatine making crap up to seduce Anakin. That's just my thought. I mean, really, if Sidious could live forever, what would he need Anakin for?

Well, what if someone sneaks up on the Emperor and kills him while he is asleep?

Or uses a Droid, which doesn't regester any real intent through the Force, just a little *twinge* of danger. Palpatine might miss that just as HIS master did, and where would the Sith be then?


Why did he need an apprentice? Stuff happens.

[AcePylut]

Sith generate life,,, aka, Sidius raped Shmi to produce Anni, and used the force to do so.

Generate does not equal sustain.


Saw it again last night.  Couldn't figure out the lightsabre hand at the end.

And yes, Samual Jackson sucked ass as Mace Windu. 

[Commander La'ra]

Sidious needs an apprentice so he can send him out to do the dangerous stuff.

Which makes me think that Marlin Perkins was a Sith.

[GE-Raven]

It is my understanding that "balance" is the force only used for selfeless and helpful purposes.  In other words balance is not Good vs. Evil.  It is a "balanced" use of the force.  Used only to help all, and never to help one gain power.  This balance is what anakin achieves only by becoming the darkside and ensuring its eradication by killing his master while ending his own tortured existance.  (aided by his child that he should NEVER have had by Jedi code). 

The end of 6 brings balance with the removal of the sith and therefore the darkside of the force.

MHO

GE-Raven

[Iceman]

The Sith were not gone with 6.  Mara Jade was around, she's a pseudo-sith, and there's a few more I think.


Of course, this assumes you choose to include the books (as Lucas has, I might point out).

[Darth Sidious]

I wouldnt consider Mara Jade psuedo-sith.  Force attuned, yes.  Able to use the force for some things, sure.  Tapping the Darkside for everything?  Thats stretching it a bit.

The Sith were not gone with 6.  Mara Jade was around, she's a pseudo-sith, and there's a few more I think.


Of course, this assumes you choose to include the books (as Lucas has, I might point out).

[J. Carney]

Well, once we get past the death of the Emperor, things get kinda sticky. For those familiar with the Expanded Universe (as I am slowly becoming) there are LOTS more dark Force users... and even a couple of Dark Jedi.

The Dark Side never really goes away, just as Dark is never really destroyed by Light. When the Light is removed, the Dark returns. It was never removed, just beaten back.

As long as there are Jedi, there will be the danger of Sith returning as each one has to face the Dark Side and either win or loose his battle with himself.

[Iceman]

I wouldnt consider Mara Jade psuedo-sith.  Force attuned, yes.  Able to use the force for some things, sure.  Tapping the Darkside for everything?  Thats stretching it a bit.

The Sith were not gone with 6.  Mara Jade was around, she's a pseudo-sith, and there's a few more I think.


Of course, this assumes you choose to include the books (as Lucas has, I might point out).

She almost killed Luke a few times. Using the Dark Side. What do you call that? lol

[Clark Kent]

Why did yoda decide to end the duel anyway?  He may have been battered a bit, but it seemed like he was overall winning against sidious.  Not to say he would have won, but he was ahead, and he could have won.

[J. Carney]

Why did yoda decide to end the duel anyway?  He may have been battered a bit, but it seemed like he was overall winning against sidious.  Not to say he would have won, but he was ahead, and he could have won.

In the book (keeping in mind that SW books are canon), it says that Yoda realizes that he is overmatched. The Emperor might not be as strong WITH the Force as Yoda, but he is able to use his more limited abilities better in a fight. In short- Yoda might be wise and skilled, but Palpatine is strong and relentless... and in the end, he just plain would have worn Yoda down.

[Darth Sidious]

Using the darkside in and of itself does not a Sith make.

I wouldnt consider Mara Jade psuedo-sith.  Force attuned, yes.  Able to use the force for some things, sure.  Tapping the Darkside for everything?  Thats stretching it a bit.

The Sith were not gone with 6.  Mara Jade was around, she's a pseudo-sith, and there's a few more I think.


Of course, this assumes you choose to include the books (as Lucas has, I might point out).

She almost killed Luke a few times. Using the Dark Side. What do you call that? lol

[J. Carney]

Using the darkside in and of itself does not a Sith make.

True, Sith are a philosophical bent, just like the Jedi.

But if Obi-wan and Qui-Gon and Anikin can manefest as Force Spirits, why can't Palpatine?

A Dark Side spirit could teach a Dark Side force user in the ways of the Sith just as Obi-Wan taught Luke in the ways of the Jedi.

[Dash Jones]

It's in the idea of the item.  The philosophy is as shown in RotS, that the Sith have the ability to enlongate life here...but it is due to their own selfishness and desire for their own power.  The Jedi, in concern for others cannot save others in the end.  In the end the only one they can really grant the extension of life...or at least spirit...is themselves.

Hence the Sith gain a temporary reprieve from death in this life...but not an extension after death.  The Jedi cannot gain a temporary reprieve from death in this life, but can have an afterlife in an extension in this sphere.

Completely opposite, but the philosophy is there.  Those that help others in the end help themselves...but those that look only to help themselves, though they have the ability to help others...in the end lose everything.

[J. Carney]

Hence the Sith gain a temporary reprieve from death in this life...but not an extension after death.  The Jedi cannot gain a temporary reprieve from death in this life, but can have an afterlife in an extension in this sphere.

Dash...

Do some reading up on Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was a Force Spirit that inhabited a Sith temple on Yavin 4. He became so powerful in the ways of the Sith that he just merged with the Force, a'la Yoda and Obi-Wan. Alive during the Great Hyperspace Wars, his spirit remained active until the time of the Rebellion. There were also reports of Feerdon Nod' spirit surviving after death, and the great Marka Ragnos- last Dark Lord of a united Sith- instructed several Jedi in the ways of Darkness after his death.

(p.123, Darkside Sourcebook, Star Wars RPG, WotC)

[Chris Johnson]

Do some reading up on Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was a Force Spirit that inhabited a Sith temple on Yavin 4. He became so powerful in the ways of the Sith that he just merged with the Force, a'la Yoda and Obi-Wan. Alive during the Great Hyperspace Wars, his spirit remained active until the time of the Rebellion. There were also reports of Feerdon Nod' spirit surviving after death, and the great Marka Ragnos- last Dark Lord of a united Sith- instructed several Jedi in the ways of Darkness after his death.

Heh, I'm glad in the realm of the Expanded Universe that the original, true Dark Lord of the Sith from 4,000 years before the SW Trilogies is still remembered from all the crud the became "Darth This" and "Darth That" from simple video games I never played before (but seem somewhat interesting) that became popular.  Reminds me of Enterprise and all the discussions of what should've been tech level for 22nd Century Earth and all that back in 2001, but I digress...

...I actually liked Episode III, despite how dark it is.  I agree that there were some moments that could've improved, like a yell instead of "Nooo!" and stuff like that (although I would've expected Darth Vader not to be the villain he was in the original trilogy, since we're seeing the "birth" of the Vader we know, developing to the guy that'll hunt down the rest of the Jedi, that'll choke every Imperial blockhead that isn't up to Vader's expectations, that has the attitude we've come to expect from him, etc.).  Some things I cringed at were the Jedi dying.  I didn't know if George wanted to show younglings dying in one way or another, as he show the other Jedi dying (Although I like the Felucia forest and planet Kashykk, pretty-looking SW locations IMHO.), or even Anakin burning alive (I almost thought they'd go with the 1983 version of the Episode III script and have Anakin drop in lava.) like that, it made me cringe.  Thank goodness I had no nightmares about that...  Some of my favorite parts include the beginning, it seemed somewhat campy, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship like "brothers," havin' fun, truely SW-like in spirit, IMHO.

Although I'm not brushed up quite that much on EU stories, wasn't Palpatine's way of being Immortal in this "realm of existance" cloning himself and transferring his energetic existance from one body to another?  (That somewhat reminds me of the Asgard from Stargate: SG-1)  I mean in the EU, not the way Episode III contradicted it.  It was something about Palpatine actually absorbing the dark energy of a Sith Holocron, somehow becoming more powerful, and that he aged rapidly since the power of the Dark Side he had ate up his energy, his life, and that from time to time he had to switch bodies from one cloned version of himself to another... I think it was some explination of how Palpatine came to be a Sith Lord or something, and faced Luke as a younger, cloned version of himself, an old story before the Prequels came out, though...

[Iceman]

There was a clone, but he died. Luke and (I think) Mara Jade killed him when he lost control of a giant Force Storm he created. They basically made the storms eat up his ship. Kinda poetic.

[J. Carney]

Do some reading up on Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was a Force Spirit that inhabited a Sith temple on Yavin 4. He became so powerful in the ways of the Sith that he just merged with the Force, a'la Yoda and Obi-Wan. Alive during the Great Hyperspace Wars, his spirit remained active until the time of the Rebellion. There were also reports of Feerdon Nod' spirit surviving after death, and the great Marka Ragnos- last Dark Lord of a united Sith- instructed several Jedi in the ways of Darkness after his death.

Heh, I'm glad in the realm of the Expanded Universe that the original, true Dark Lord of the Sith from 4,000 years before the SW Trilogies is still remembered from all the crud the became "Darth This" and "Darth That" from simple video games I never played before (but seem somewhat interesting) that became popular.  Reminds me of Enterprise and all the discussions of what should've been tech level for 22nd Century Earth and all that back in 2001, but I digress...

Well, the more I read in the EU (and I'm just getting started), I like the EU. It gives a lot of backstory,and allows a lot of potential for more material- like that TV series *prays for Hyperspace Wars era*.

...I actually liked Episode III, despite how dark it is.  I agree that there were some moments that could've improved, like a yell instead of "Nooo!" and stuff like that (although I would've expected Darth Vader not to be the villain he was in the original trilogy, since we're seeing the "birth" of the Vader we know, developing to the guy that'll hunt down the rest of the Jedi, that'll choke every Imperial blockhead that isn't up to Vader's expectations, that has the attitude we've come to expect from him, etc.).  Some things I cringed at were the Jedi dying.  I didn't know if George wanted to show younglings dying in one way or another, as he show the other Jedi dying (Although I like the Felucia forest and planet Kashykk, pretty-looking SW locations IMHO.), or even Anakin burning alive (I almost thought they'd go with the 1983 version of the Episode III script and have Anakin drop in lava.) like that, it made me cringe.  Thank goodness I had no nightmares about that...  Some of my favorite parts include the beginning, it seemed somewhat campy, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship like "brothers," havin' fun, truely SW-like in spirit, IMHO.

I missed a lot of the lines form the book... especially Vader's lines as he slaughtered the leaders of the CIS on Mustafar... they show that he was TRUELY 'born again hard.'

Lucas knew that showing the younglings actually getting cut up would earn him an R... i don't think it was in the plans. Only youngling that you get to see killed is the one on the balcony.

HAving Vader burn where people could see it made the last scene a LOT more convincing- it was like he spontaniously combusted from the heat of the hate inside him. I found it an excellent touch.

Although I'm not brushed up quite that much on EU stories, wasn't Palpatine's way of being Immortal in this "realm of existance" cloning himself and transferring his energetic existance from one body to another?  (That somewhat reminds me of the Asgard from Stargate: SG-1)  I mean in the EU, not the way Episode III contradicted it.  It was something about Palpatine actually absorbing the dark energy of a Sith Holocron, somehow becoming more powerful, and that he aged rapidly since the power of the Dark Side he had ate up his energy, his life, and that from time to time he had to switch bodies from one cloned version of himself to another... I think it was some explination of how Palpatine came to be a Sith Lord or something, and faced Luke as a younger, cloned version of himself, an old story before the Prequels came out, though...

Yeah, he did clone himself.. several times I don't know the story because I'mn not reading those books right now. I'm going to start on the Han Solo stuff and am looking for some of the 'Golden Age of the Sith' material.'

I think that Ep. III's supernatural explination of how Palpatine stayed alive makes it spookier and more magical, bringing the powers of the Force into sharper relief. I like that version better, personally.

[Chris Johnson]

But it doesn't show the definate power of the Force in my opinion (other than "creating life"), like what I heard about using the Force to make stars go supernova and all that (I think I read that a particular Sith Lord was capable of that, I believe Exar Kun was, just as he was capable of staying put as a spirit at Yavin IV in the Massassi Temple for four millenia), or even the Sith "Thought Bomb" that Sith Lord Kaan used against Jedi Lord Hoth and the Jedi Army of Light at the Battle of Ruusan, although also entraping the spirits of 'em and his Brotherhood of Darkness...  I believe it was Darth Bane who managed to escape from the Thought Bomb 1,000 years before the SW trilogies (And "Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight", to which inspired a couple of novels I believe in the late-1990s, before Episode 1 came out), and formed the "one master, one apprentice" idea (and I hear is truely when Sith Lords started giving each other Darth ____ names, which definately contradicts the KotOR games I previously mentioned).

I guess Star Wars is becoming more and more a mixed bag as far as canon and continuity goes (at times, I enjoy continuity, a nice touch in most sci-fi universes in my opinion), a nice emulation of how Trek works in that area, especially when Enterprise came out four years ago, and how everyone freaked out.  But that doesn't mean it's not good entertainment, to which Star Wars is.  Once again, I enjoyed Episode III a lot...

[J. Carney]

All the reasons you said that Palpatine's immortality doesn't show the power of the Dark SIde are the reasons I want to see a Jedi/vs/Sith TV show set in the distant past of Star Wars.

All the cool stuff happened before the 'Darth' BS.

[Darth Sidious]

Rather than get into an argument of canon v non-canon, i'll say this.

To me, canon is the movies/movie scripts/movie novels/movie radiodramas.  The bread and butter of SW, if you will.
Mostly-Canon:  Things like Clone Wars,  Labyrinth of Evil.  Stuff directly relating to the movies.

Everything else is EU.  And some of the EU is better than the 'canon' bits.  Like Zahn's Trillogy that got the SW novels movement going again in the early 90s.  And some i'd just rather forget entirely.  (Truce at Bakura)

That said.  I'd love to see a KOTOR era TV series.

[Commander La'ra]

Some of the EU stuff rocks.  Zahn's trilogy had me humming the music at many, many points, and Mara Jade is a very plausible, very interesting character.

Others stuff, such as the New Jedi Order books or the books by Kevin J. Anderson, I could do without.

[J. Carney]

Others stuff, such as the New Jedi Order books or the books by Kevin J. Anderson, I could do without.

Did anyone else think that the Yuusong Vong was just Star Wars trying to do the Borg? Or did they come before that?

[Commander La'ra]

I thought they were what happens when you hire R.A. Salvatore to write a novel that takes place in a universe where villians cannot summon demons for the heros to fight.

[Chris Johnson]

Rather than get into an argument of canon v non-canon, i'll say this.

To me, canon is the movies/movie scripts/movie novels/movie radiodramas.  The bread and butter of SW, if you will.
Mostly-Canon:  Things like Clone Wars,  Labyrinth of Evil.  Stuff directly relating to the movies.

Everything else is EU.  And some of the EU is better than the 'canon' bits.  Like Zahn's Trillogy that got the SW novels movement going again in the early 90s.  And some i'd just rather forget entirely.  (Truce at Bakura)

That said.  I'd love to see a KOTOR era TV series.

The "levels of Canon" as I saw 'em and understood 'em (albeit could be wrong) are this (and before I go onto 'em, I stress I'm not arguing, just stating my own opinion and will therefore say no further after this on the subject):

The highest form of true "canon" is the movies and only the movies, and the movie novelizations coming second.  If the movie contradicts its novelization, the movie's version is true, the novel's is false.

The second form of canon in which Lucas claims as a "parallel universe" (one I wouldn't mind having fun with if given a lightsaber and Force Powers) are the Expanded Universe novels.  Anything and everything in this area is to be taken with a grain of salt if you want absolute canon, but I believe there's a "canon" of its own due to the stress of continuity, despite some inconsistancies.  The EU canon includes stuff like Ragnos from 5,000 years before the trilogies, people like Exar Kun and Nomi Sunrider 4,000 years ago, the Battle of Ruusan 1,000 years before the Trilogies, Darth ___ and stuff like "one master, one apprentice" from 1,000 years before to the Trilogies themselves, in-between or just-before novels involving people like Darth Maul's adventures before Episode 1, Quinlan Vos stories, the Clone Wars novels, or even the Han Solo trilogy of novels, to beyond the Triology with Luke and "first of the new Jedi" and leading up to the new Jedi Temple at Massassi on Yavin IV, or Thrawn or cloned Emperor Palpatine, Kyle Katarn becoming an EU character from novelizations of the Dark Forces games coming into EU continuity, or even the Yuuzhan Vong (Introduced in 1999), and so on and so fourth.  Whilst seperated from the actual movies that felt free to contradict the EU, it is still very much in continuity.

Here's where my knowledge of Wars canon shaking, especially in recent years, like from 2003-on.  Whether popular or not, most every comic or video game (including KotOR 1/2, or even the Jedi Knight games after Dark Forces II) is of even lesser canon, or even not at all canon.  People like Darth Malak or Revan, events such as "Assaj's death" in the Clone Wars by Anakin Skywalker on Yavin IV, the all-too early introduction of Grievous, the "Valley of the Jedi"'s power once again becoming true (despite the fact that the spirits of Jedi and Sith from the Battle of Ruusan were freed and the Valley's power nullified at the end of the Dark Forces novels) in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast, the Infinities stories, and so on and so fourth... I believe them to be of even a "lesser canon" or even not at all due to how contradicting they are in continuity with the EU.

To summarize, the "absolute canon" are the two trilogies and the novelizations of 'em (The Trilogy standing above the novelizations and contradicting them at times).  The "EU canon" being outside of the Trilogy, but still a level of its own considering the extreme continuity it tries preserving from time to time, and the non-canon being most anything else, from the Christmas Special to KotOR 2.

Again, I stress that you should take my memory with a grain of salt, that you shouldn't view my post as an argument, but rather an belief of mine on this subject through some observation (but not my opinion on canon), and that I could be wrong on these "levels of canon".  Ultimately, I have the same opinion of canon on Star Wars as I do on Star Trek (which is why--on my signature--I quoted Bernd Schneider on the view of Trek canon since I agree with him), even though it's sometimes fun to try and analyze the levels of canon and see how continuity is kept intact in Star Wars EU.

[Iceman]

Just an FYI, "The Clone Wars" series is not a secondary source, its straight from Lucas. It's as canon as the movies.

Also, the Yuzzhang Vong are quite different from the Borg in their motives. The Borg assimilated to learn more, be more powerful, that kinda thing. The Vong kill just to kill, with no real gain besides land. It's  like Italy invading Ethiopia, they did it just cause they could.

[Chris Johnson]

Any quote from Lucas indicating that the Clone Wars cartoons aren't a part of EU/the "parallel universe", that he describes it in his canon?  I'm just curious as I haven't heard much of that issue in Canon.

[J. Carney]

Also, the Yuzzhang Vong are quite different from the Borg in their motives.

I was just talking about the "unstopable super-race that appears just to give our heros someone new to fight" aspect of them.

[Iceman]

About the Vong, yeah sorta. It was time for something new though. Granted, they're a walking plot device, but the writers have pulled it off, giving them their own history with twists and turns. I'm about -200 pages from finishing "The Unifying Force" (the last book in the New Jedi Order) so I'll let you know how it turns out.

CJ,
I not sure I understand what you're trying to say, could ya rephrase that?
From what I gather, the Clone Wars animated series is the official story of what Anakin and Obi-Wan and everyone involved went through during the Clone Wars. It's as canon as the movies.

[KBF-Angel Slayer]

Well, finally got the time off to go see it.  I'll have an opinion by the time I get home.  If it sucks, I'll bill you.

[Javora]

It didn’t seem to matter to Obi-Wan that he didn’t have the high ground in the first movie.  When Obi-Wan was hanging on for his life in that seemingly bottomless pit with Darth Maul gloating over Obi-Wan after Qui Gon was killed.

Other than that glaring misstep I thought the movie was ok.

[Clark Kent]

Obi wan had no choice, so he took the risk.  Also, Obi wan didn't know it at the time, but had greater skill than Darth Maul.
As for Ep. III, I'd say it was say to say that Obi Wan and Anikan were closely matched (more so than the other duel), and Obi Wan had one advantage: Anikan was too arrogant.  If anikan would have been more prudent, he probably could have won, but he didn't, and made a stupid move.

[J. Carney]

It didn’t seem to matter to Obi-Wan that he didn’t have the high ground in the first movie.

Obi-Wan was acting out of desperation while attacking an over-confident opponent that had no idea what was coming.

Vader was trying to attack a calm, well-disciplined opponent that was sure of his position and the options open to his attacker.


BIG difference.

[Commander La'ra]

You could even argue that Obi-Wan knew exactly what his former Padawan was about to try because he'd once been in a similar position.

Maul just made the mistake of being too focused on killing Obi-Wan and of underestimating him, which, as we saw, was fatal.

[Javora]

He could just as easily have landed on the other side of the pit away from Darth Maul and then continued the fight.  A good fighter doesn't take on risk unnecessarily, the force can't anticipate everything in a fight.  Someone earlier in this thread said something to the same effect in regards to Palpatine.

IMHO this was a case of limited time in the movie making process, and I guess that someone hoped that we all had a short memory.

[Commander La'ra]

Maybe he could've, but people in tense situations don't always think of the best solution.  It just happened to work out for Obi-Wan in Episode I, but didn't for Anakin in III.

[KBF-Angel Slayer]

Enjoyed the movie, and have little to say about Politics, other than, you could apply the so called messages to any political party over the last thousand years. 
   Best actors by character, in order?

   Obi-Wan.  I'd have to give him credit for the best acting of the entire movie.  Close, but he won.
   Yoda.  The little green guy gave his best performance yet.  You actually forgot he'd leave the set and go home to his wife and kids, didn't you?  Very good job.
   R2-D2.  As usual, R2 performs great, and gives great humor.  Rumor has it, they considered him for the role of Moe in the Three Stooges movie, but couldn't reach an agreement on the hydraulic fluid in the break room.
   Palpatine.  He did a very good job playing the manipulator.  I really liked the way he'd twist words to get his way.
   Padme.  This is the only woman I've ever seen that makes one think of a good laxative rather than heartbreak when she is supposedly upset.  Very bad.
   Anakin.  This was just horrible.  He looked pissed the entire movie. 
   
   I did enjoy the movie, and liked the basic story.  Lucas redeemed himself with this one, to a good degree.  I liked it.
   

[Elvis]

Characters that were introduced in the trilogy that I wished we'd have seen more of:

Darth Maul -- What planet did he come from? Maul was cool too bad he was short lived, more Maul less Binks. That simply would have made the first movie better--focus on the stalking of Queen Amidala on Tatooine by Maul. I could have skipped the whole pod racer thing also --more Maul being evil with his twin bladed saber, hell have him kill Jar Jar.

Count Dooku -- There is a missed opportunity, make him the trainer/master of Maul, with Sidious as his master. I know that wouldn't be "canon" but it would fit better, imo. Why ascribe the clone army to some unknown Jedi, just admiit it was Dooku.

General Grievious -- What the hell did I miss, who was the droid general in the first movie? He should have been introduced in the first movie, him along with more Maul and less Binks and the first movie woud be Oscar bound. j/k/k I mean come on.

Lucas wanted this to be "epic" but he made it too epic, covering too much time and space. All we really cared about was seeing Anakin, the young Jedi apprentice and his turn to the dark side. We didn't need an immaculate conception, pod racing  and the whole discussion of mitochlorians(sp?).  Everybody wanted to be a jedi when I was growing up, I guarantee that had we know about mitochlorians in the 4th episode we wouldn't have given a damn. Now we have Anakin turning to the dark side and if his resume just includes:killing younglings, getting mutilated by Obi Wan on the volcano planet, being unsuccessful in tracking down the plans to the first Death Star when stolen by the rebellion, not being able to stop the rebellion in destroying the first death star,  letting the rebellion escape Hoth, the snow planet(you can only blame so many things on underlings), losing the Falcon in asteroid field and then falling for the oldest one in the book, escaping with the garbage, not delivering Skywalker the first time, and then on the second confrontation  with Skywalker giving in to the light side and helping to destroy the Emperor. What kind of evil resume is that? What reason do I have to fear Vader, he's not been succeessful at anything hes attempted, on either side. Lucas has made the main character of two trilogies a complete and utter loser and that is laughable.  Now my recollection of Vader is him breaking bonds like Frankenstein and screaming "NOOOOOO!!!" Give me a break.

[el-Karnak]

Count Dooku -- There is a missed opportunity, make him the trainer/master of Maul, with Sidious as his master. I know that wouldn't be "canon" but it would fit better, imo. Why ascribe the clone army to some unknown Jedi, just admiit it was Dooku.

The  Labyrinth of Evil novel provides some back story on the origin of the Clone Army.  Apparently, Sifo-Di-yass became disenchanted with the Jedi when Qui Quon Jinn died and started looking for ulterior ways to save the Republic from itself.  Dooku also started looking and became an easy target for Darth Sidious to corrupt.  Before his untimely demise, Qui Quonn was a leader of a Jedi faction that was more far-sighted than the current Jedi Council including discovering how to merge with the force after death. Yoda did not realize that Qui Quonn was correct is asserting that the Jedi were stagnating in fossilized practices, that would eventually allow the Sith to overtake them, until the Emporer proved in his duel with Yoda that the Sith had evolved to the point that they were more powerful than the Jedi masters, like...Yoda. After losing his duel with the Emporer, Yoda became Qui Quonn Jinn ghost's apprentice in order to find new unconventional ways to eventually defeat the Sith.

Anyway, when Dooku found out about Sifo-Di-Yass probing the Kaminoans about making a Clone Army, he told Palpatine and the Sith Lord gave as his first task to kill Sifo, but only after the Clone Army idea was well underway.  Then Dooku went and found the clone template by hiring the bounty hunter Jango Fett.  Palpatine also had ex-Chancellor Valorum bumped off in a mysterious shuttle accident in Labyrinth of Evil.   The Old Republic Intelligence services also manage to link the warehouse used at the end of Attack of the Clones to someone in the high levels of the Republic gov't. But, when they arrived at Palpatine's door a couple of Genosian guards waxed the investigators with Palpatine smugly walking over their dead bodies on his way to the "kidnapping" rendezvous with Grevious.

Lucas wanted this to be "epic" but he made it too epic, covering too much time and space. All we really cared about was seeing Anakin, the young Jedi apprentice and his turn to the dark side. We didn't need an immaculate conception, pod racing  and the whole discussion of mitochlorians(sp?).  Everybody wanted to be a jedi when I was growing up, I guarantee that had we know about mitochlorians in the 4th episode we wouldn't have given a damn. Now we have Anakin turning to the dark side and if his resume just includes:killing younglings, getting mutilated by Obi Wan on the volcano planet, being unsuccessful in tracking down the plans to the first Death Star when stolen by the rebellion, not being able to stop the rebellion in destroying the first death star,  letting the rebellion escape Hoth, the snow planet(you can only blame so many things on underlings), losing the Falcon in asteroid field and then falling for the oldest one in the book, escaping with the garbage, not delivering Skywalker the first time, and then on the second confrontation  with Skywalker giving in to the light side and helping to destroy the Emperor. What kind of evil resume is that? What reason do I have to fear Vader, he's not been succeessful at anything hes attempted, on either side. Lucas has made the main character of two trilogies a complete and utter loser and that is laughable.  Now my recollection of Vader is him breaking bonds like Frankenstein and screaming "NOOOOOO!!!" Give me a break.

The Sith were basically having everything go their way for close to 32 years from Episode I until right up to the moment Luke destroys the Death Star. Only when the ghost of Obi-wan Kenobi, using skills taught by his own master Qui Quonn, instructed Luke on how to destroy the Death Star and with some vital unlooked-for help from his friend Han Solo, did the Sith start losing. Basically, Lucas was big on how friendship and love can always overcome evil, because evil, in the end, is all about being selfish.  Not until people started giving up their old ways (ie. the Jedi Council opposing Qui Quonn Jinn's teachings), and the selfish corruption of the Old Republic gave way to people freely giving their lives for others, did the Sith start losing. Finally, when Anakin finally grew up and gave up his life to save his own son did Darth Sidious die.  But before the first Dearth Star blew up,  the Sith had a pretty good run:  engineered the Clone Wars as a vehicle to kill Jedi and dilute their numbers in preparation for the Jedi Purge, Jedi Temple destroyed, Galactic Empire handed to them for 3 plus decades, Alderaan destroyed, etc.  Actually, about the only thing missing from Lucas' careful re-construction of past RL intriques in the ancient Roman Empire is Jar Jar Binks mimicing Emporer Claudius, who as playing the fool survived all the back-stabbings of the Augustus dynasty, to eventually become Emporer of the Roman Empire, ruler of 1/4 of the ancient world's population, and conquerer of Britain in the 50s AD. :O

BTW, does anyone find it interesting that the coming out of "Deep Throat", who was the vital source in the FBI to fuel the Watergate Scandal investigation, the informant that displayed the corruption of the Nixon Administration and its misuse of the CIA, FBI and US Dept. of Justice to the world, occurs when ROTS comes out? Lucas always said Star Wars was a reflection of the times during the Vietnam/Watergate scandal era in addition to his probing on why the Roman Republic and the French Republic of 1790s eventually became empires.  Corruption kills democracy indeed...

[Sirgod]

I finally saw It yesterday, and I have to say, I got a chuckle out of Franken Vader at the End.


"NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!"

Stephen

[Iceman]

Count Dooku -- There is a missed opportunity, make him the trainer/master of Maul, with Sidious as his master. I know that wouldn't be "canon" but it would fit better, imo. Why ascribe the clone army to some unknown Jedi, just admiit it was Dooku.

The  Labyrinth of Evil novel provides some back story on the origin of the Clone Army.  Apparently, Sifo-Di-yass became disenchanted with the Jedi when Qui Quon Jinn died and started looking for ulterior ways to save the Republic from itself.  Dooku also started looking and became an easy target for Darth Sidious to corrupt.  Before his untimely demise, Qui Quonn was a leader of a Jedi faction that was more far-sighted than the current Jedi Council including discovering how to merge with the force after death. Yoda did not realize that Qui Quonn was correct is asserting that the Jedi were stagnating in fossilized practices, that would eventually allow the Sith to overtake them, until the Emporer proved in his duel with Yoda that the Sith had evolved to the point that they were more powerful than the Jedi masters, like...Yoda. After losing his duel with the Emporer, Yoda became Qui Quonn Jinn ghost's apprentice in order to find new unconventional ways to eventually defeat the Sith.

Anyway, when Dooku found out about Sifo-Di-Yass probing the Kaminoans about making a Clone Army, he told Palpatine and the Sith Lord gave as his first task to kill Sifo, but only after the Clone Army idea was well underway.  Then Dooku went and found the clone template by hiring the bounty hunter Jango Fett.  Palpatine also had ex-Chancellor Valorum bumped off in a mysterious shuttle accident in Labyrinth of Evil.   The Old Republic Intelligence services also manage to link the warehouse used at the end of Attack of the Clones to someone in the high levels of the Republic gov't. But, when they arrived at Palpatine's door a couple of Genosian guards waxed the investigators with Palpatine smugly walking over their dead bodies on his way to the "kidnapping" rendezvous with Grevious.

Lucas wanted this to be "epic" but he made it too epic, covering too much time and space. All we really cared about was seeing Anakin, the young Jedi apprentice and his turn to the dark side. We didn't need an immaculate conception, pod racing  and the whole discussion of mitochlorians(sp?).  Everybody wanted to be a jedi when I was growing up, I guarantee that had we know about mitochlorians in the 4th episode we wouldn't have given a damn. Now we have Anakin turning to the dark side and if his resume just includes:killing younglings, getting mutilated by Obi Wan on the volcano planet, being unsuccessful in tracking down the plans to the first Death Star when stolen by the rebellion, not being able to stop the rebellion in destroying the first death star,  letting the rebellion escape Hoth, the snow planet(you can only blame so many things on underlings), losing the Falcon in asteroid field and then falling for the oldest one in the book, escaping with the garbage, not delivering Skywalker the first time, and then on the second confrontation  with Skywalker giving in to the light side and helping to destroy the Emperor. What kind of evil resume is that? What reason do I have to fear Vader, he's not been succeessful at anything hes attempted, on either side. Lucas has made the main character of two trilogies a complete and utter loser and that is laughable.  Now my recollection of Vader is him breaking bonds like Frankenstein and screaming "NOOOOOO!!!" Give me a break.

The Sith were basically having everything go their way for close to 32 years from Episode I until right up to the moment Luke destroys the Death Star. Only when the ghost of Obi-wan Kenobi, using skills taught by his own master Qui Quonn, instructed Luke on how to destroy the Death Star and with some vital unlooked-for help from his friend Han Solo, did the Sith start losing. Basically, Lucas was big on how friendship and love can always overcome evil, because evil, in the end, is all about being selfish.  Not until people started giving up their old ways (ie. the Jedi Council opposing Qui Quonn Jinn's teachings), and the selfish corruption of the Old Republic gave way to people freely giving their lives for others, did the Sith start losing. Finally, when Anakin finally grew up and gave up his life to save his own son did Darth Sidious die.  But before the first Dearth Star blew up,  the Sith had a pretty good run:  engineered the Clone Wars as a vehicle to kill Jedi and dilute their numbers in preparation for the Jedi Purge, Jedi Temple destroyed, Galactic Empire handed to them for 3 plus decades, Alderaan destroyed, etc.  Actually, about the only thing missing from Lucas' careful re-construction of past RL intriques in the ancient Roman Empire is Jar Jar Binks mimicing Emporer Claudius, who as playing the fool survived all the back-stabbings of the Augustus dynasty, to eventually become Emporer of the Roman Empire, ruler of 1/4 of the ancient world's population, and conquerer of Britain in the 50s AD. :O

BTW, does anyone find it interesting that the coming out of "Deep Throat", who was the vital source in the FBI to fuel the Watergate Scandal investigation, the informant that displayed the corruption of the Nixon Administration and its misuse of the CIA, FBI and US Dept. of Justice to the world, occurs when ROTS comes out? Lucas always said Star Wars was a reflection of the times during the Vietnam/Watergate scandal era in addition to his probing on why the Roman Republic and the French Republic of 1790s eventually became empires.  Corruption kills democracy indeed...

I just learned SO much.

Thank you.

[Elvis]

Ok so the Sith had a 'good' run of 32 years, most people who walked into RotS will never pick up a Star Wars novel. Darth Vader was an "ALL PRO" as a villain, his villainy was legendary. Now what is he? George Lucas has undone his evil creation. We never see Anakin as really good, we see him as rebellious and arrogant. And then we see him turn to the Dark Side; then he just becomes a silly caricature. I'm just not satisfied with the story Lucas told, but it is told and there is no changing it so I guess I'll have to live with that.

View the next two links with IE(won't work with FF)

http://darthno.ytmnd.com/   

http://padme.ytmnd.com/

[J. Carney]

Worked just fine for me, Elvis... the only problem is YOU DIDN'T SAY WHICH NATALIE PORTMAN MOVIE THAT IS!!!

A stripping Padme with pink hair... Now THAT'S entertainment!

[Sirgod]

Worked just fine for me, Elvis... the only problem is YOU DIDN'T SAY WHICH NATALIE PORTMAN MOVIE THAT IS!!!

A stripping Padme with pink hair... Now THAT'S entertainment!

OK show of hands, ( man I'm going to hell), who first noticed Natalie in the Professional?

I knew when I saw her that she would grow up into a beautifull young women.

Stephen

[J. Carney]

OK show of hands, ( man I'm going to hell), who first noticed Natalie in the Professional?

I did...

J, who is NOT going to Hell, because he was like, 16 when he saw the Professional- so he wasn't old enough to be her father...

[Sirgod]

OK show of hands, ( man I'm going to hell), who first noticed Natalie in the Professional?

I did...

J, who is NOT going to Hell, because he was like, 16 when he saw the Professional- so he wasn't old enough to be her father...

GRR!!! I was like 21 and in the Corp. That being said, I offer this in my defence. Her parents where on the set everyday also, Because there was alot of sexual overtones in that film. Personaly, I think she has alot of potential to becoming as Great an actress as she is a beauty. Because of her work in the Proffesional, and her later work also. To me, she seems to be on the fast track towards being a Classic type actress.

Stephen

[J. Carney]

She IS definitely more than just hot... she's a classic beauty like Audrey Hepburn.

[Iceman]

Whoa lets not say things we can't take back here folks....


You just elevated someone whos latest performace could have been outdone by ME with a cut-out of her face, to the status of Audry Hepburn? I gotta call BS on that. She'll be great, but she needs time.

[Elvis]

The shots of Natalie stripping are from the movie "Closer". With Natalie and Star Wars if your written a bogus part there is not much to be done.

[Commander La'ra]

*raises his hand* I noticed her.  Acting and looks wise.  She was good then, she's better now.

Honestly, I don't like comparing her to Audrey Hepburn because...well...I never really liked Audrey Hepburn.  Me thinking Natalie Portman is a better actress isn't much of a stretch.

That said, everything I've seen her in, she's impressed me.  In Episode III, she had a very limited, very poorly written part...possibly the weakest part of the whole movie.  Despite that, I loved the dark cynicism she packed into that one memorable line in the senate chamber...

Speaking of 'The Professional', I really loved that movie.  It'd have been even more interesting had Besson been able to use all the material from the original script...