Topic: OT: Challenge for you Canon Watch dogs. . .

[intermech]

I am trying to disprove the theory that the Steamrunner, Sabre, and Norway classes are not starfleet but Marque. Here are some of the interesting points:

They do not follow standard Starfleet ship configuration or coloring.
They are never (to my knowledge) seen close up to see markings.
They are only involved in battles where humanity is at stake, ie, Borg invasion, latter part of the Dominion War.

I need canon proof, no commentaries, no books, no websites, no games, nor scripts, I am looking for Series or Movie proof that they are indeed starfleet. This could be a scene showing markings that I have missed, characters mentioning these classes of ships as starfleet ships, a shot of one of these ships in a starfleet shipyard, or an extremely logical argument based on imperical data.

Any takers?

[CC22]

Um this seems a little crazy for a theory lol but certainly original. The CGI models did infact have Starfleet markings, and these can be readily found on the net. It is harder to find decent pics of the Norway though as they lost the original model not long after filming. I'd be happy to provide you with pictures of the models used but im not on my own pc at the moment. Im not sure how much use this info is for you but its fact.
The Star Trek ships of the line calander 2002 I think had an image of the Utopia Planetia yards with certainly a Steamrunner present under construction. It is an official publication. Basically you are not going to find decent close ups of the ships in question on screen. They were made for background ships in the battle with the borg in FC, and only the Akira was made to a good enough a standard to be able to be shown in any detail. It seems in limiting this argument to such peramiters you are making it harder for you to disprove.
You talk of 'non standard colourings' etc... what ARE standard colourings for Starfleet? standard configurations? with each generaton of ships we have different styles of hull plating/colouring and design flourishs. Does this mean that the aztec panneling and greeny/blue areas of TMP constitutions indicate a different race/faction constructed them other than the TOS era starfleet with there smooth hulls and grey overall colour? Indeed the Sabre Norway and more notably the Steamrunner have many traits shared with the Enterprise E and Akira. A new era of design=a new look.
Also think of this; If the Maquisi had such cutting edge designs (as can be claimed in the fact that when E-E showed up against the borg, the only ships seen left were these, a Nebula, Defiant and a few other strays not withstanding) they would have been a much more potent force against the cardassians, and also the dominion would not have been able to wipe them out with such ease. Obviously hardy and versatile ships to be able to remain in the frey for the long time it would have taken for the E to get there, against the might of the borg.
Moreover these ships would have been wiped out with the rest of the maquis and not have been present in the battles mentioned.
They ARE Starfleet ships, Federation designs. In real life this is what they were made to be, and in ST Universe it is what they are.
Who thought this up, if I may ask?

[ModelsPlease]

Proof you say ? How about Screen captures of the CGI models from the actual movies ?

Akira
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/akira-cgi.jpg
On the right nacelle you can make out the Fed symbol.
http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GAkira4.jpg
Another screen capture and again the Fed logo on the inside of the right nacelle is visable

Sabre
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/stmagazine/saber-cgi2.jpg
http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GSabGenral1.jpg
CGI screen captures Again marking visible on secondary hull

Steamrunner
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/stmagazine/steamrunner-cgi2.jpg
http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GStmGenral1.jpg
http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GSteamrunner2.jpg
Anothe set ofr CGI screen captures

Norway
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/other/norway-cgi.jpg
From the TNG Sketchbook: The Movies
http://www.stguardian.to/fed/norway/norwaywallplaque.jpg
Screen Capture from Voyager

Whether posted on a website or not. Screen captures are pretty definitive.
-MP

[CC22]

Exactly.. pics of the cgi models used. Doesnt matter if you cant make it out on screen when you have access to the original models eh.

[Chrystoff]

And if you look at the pics MP posted, you'll also notice that these vessels have "NCC" registrations. Why would Maquis ships have standard Starfleet hull registies?

[intermech]

Akira: nice shots, but I was pretty sure that was Starfleet

Sabre: Can't see the first shot, Second shot . . . I am not sure that is a screenshot from a movie or series, if it is, it will work.

Steamrunner: Can't see first picture, Second shot . . . well not real sure that is a movie or series screenshot either, third shot is too far away to see the markings. I think I see a Norway Class in the background there.

Norway: Can't see the first one. The second one definitely proves the Norway is Starfleet especially displayed on a plaque labled "Starfleet Ships." Unless of course, that display was attempting to show a scale difference between Starfleet ships and their enemies. But I will give you that one.

Norway is knocked out, Sabre and Steamrunner, I need to see other onscreen proof or need to know what show or movie those screenshots with the definitive markings came from.

Thanks for humoring me folks....

Interstellar Machine

[Captain Pierce]

You can't link directly to images at Ex Astris anymore, but all of these ships are on the same gallery page: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/firstcontact1.htm

As for the shots that aren't screencaps from the movie... they're the exact same models as used in the movie.  It's not like somebody went to all the trouble of retexutring the CG models just to post a render in the old Star Trek Magazine...

[Sochin]

Just to ask a contensious question who thought they where not Star Fleet in origin?

[Sochin]

If you go to the linked page and select the class it will tell you what ship was seen in what series and episode.

http://www.neutralzone.de/database/Federation/StarFleet/index.html

[Victory]

One thing I have to meantion on this. Isn't virtually all Maquis ships stolen from Starfleet? I don't recall the Maquis having a shipyard where they can build their own ships.

[Major A Payne]

Aside fromt he physical imagery evidence why should starfleet follow the same look and colouring for all its vessel classes??

[FedRebel]

I am trying to disprove the theory that the Steamrunner, Sabre, and Norway classes are not starfleet but Marque.

 

Who in the Hell came up with that idea?

You have to point out to this mentally ill individual that the Maquis use Federation ships they don't build their own.

Also point out that the Maquis and Feds aren't exactly freinds, The Feds essentailly handed over their homes to the Cardassians without getting their opinions fiirst, Hell the colonists didn't know there was a treaty til Picard told them they have to pack up and leave or be subjugated by the Cardassians

Here are some of the interesting points:

They do not follow standard Starfleet ship configuration or coloring.

OMG! The Defiant must be of Maquis origin be cause it doesn't follow standard Fed hull design![/sarcasam]

They are never (to my knowledge) seen close up to see markings.

So then every Fed ship that we see but can't make out the registry on must be a Maquis vessel

[Wicked Zombie]

Those ships were only seen in the Borg attack and Dominion War because, well, they hadn't been created before then. The FX people needed ships that didn't look like the Enterprise for First Contact so the audience wouldn't lose the ship in the rest of the battle. They then reused the models for long/mid-distance shots during the Dominion War on DS9 to break up the monotony of using Galaxies, Mirandas, and Excelsiors all the time.

Just because these Federation ships don't look like Constitution rip-offs doesn't mean they aren't Feds. The biggest ship the Maquis have ever used was the attack ship from Voyager, and even it was of Federation origin. They don't have the resources or shipyards to build new, advanced warships. If they did, they certainly wouldn't send them to the other side of the quadrant to help the Feds defend Earth after they'd handed their land over to the Cardassians. It's generally accepted as canon that they are Federation ships and it's never been said otherwise. Even without visible proof of hull markings and details, the simple logic behind it is enough to disprove this odd theory.

If one is going to ignore close-up shots of the models themselves then they're out of luck because the CGI for those ships wasn't meant for close views onscreen and were basically used for background filler. The best one can get are behind-the-scenes pictures of the models, and they definitely wouldn't change the markings or registries - they didn't even do that for the 2 Defiants in "Message in a Bottle", they simply shot them at angles that didn't highlight the USS Defiant registry.

As someone already pointed out, the Defiant doesn't follow traditional design/color lineage for Federation ships either, nor do the NX era Earth ships (even if there's a 200 year difference). Now, if someone wanted to come up with the idea of the Maquis stealing a few of these ships, that'd be much more plausible. They managed to 'borrow' the Defiant and take her on a rampage so slipping into a shipyard or two and flying off with a Steamrunner or Saber (Sabre) wouldn't be too far-fetched (as long as it's creatively handled).

[Chris Johnson]

I was amused by the theory, but I believe WZ and FedRebel have good points, although FedRebel was probably over the top in sarcasm, in my opinion.  It's a rediculous theory, yes, but that doesn't mean the people who made it are stupid and need to be counter-attacked...

[Mr_Tricorder]

If you want someone to prove or disprove something, you have to let them use proper resources to do it.  You can't just limit everyone to what was shown on the shows and movies.  It's rediculous to accept a fuzzy screenshot as canon, but not accept closeup shots of the models used in those shots as canon.  Also, I can see not allowing some of the books to be used, but resources like the Deep Space Nine Technical Manual and the Star Trek Encyclopedia, which both mention these vessels, were made by people who work very closely with Star Trek.  I'm a "canon watch dog", as you put it, and I rely heavily on these resources.  It's very easy to tell if a book is canon or not.  Just look for the author's name, the publishing information, the Paramount seal, and the aknowlegements.  That should give you a good idea of whether the information in that book came from the people who determine canon Trek or just straight out of some Trekkie's head.

[S33K100]

It is of course widely accepted that the DS9TM is complete and utter bantha fodder, it's not official, it's licensed, which means non-canon and just going by the huge number of innacuracies and inconsistencies it's probably for the best to just disregard most of the info in the DS9TM, the Encyclopedia is at least in agreement with the show about what it says.

[Mr_Tricorder]

To be honest, I've never really given the ds9 tech manual a good look-through as I have only recently aquired it.  I do, however, use the Star Trek Encyclopedia and the Star Trek Chronology for just about everything.  I only refer to technical manuals when the information I need is not covered by the first two sources or by any movies or episodes that I can recall.