Topic: OT : What should a Federation Mine Layer look like ? (Read 8553 times)

ModelsPlease · « **on:** May 13, 2005, 09:35:08 pm »

Ok folks time to put your thinking caps on. What should a Fed Mine Layer look like ? I want everyones opinion

Hull :BB, DN, BC, CA, CL, DD, FF, AuxClass :Connie, Miranda, Excelsior, yada yada yada
Subsequently I'll be doing a mine sweeper as well. I'm gonna start with the Feds but eventually I'm going to do these for ALL the races so input for ALL species is welcome. If someone wants to bash/model either of these even better. Otherwise whatever is decided I may retexture as needed.
-MP

Tus-XC · « **Reply #1 on:** May 13, 2005, 10:14:27 pm »

dd or cl, i would imgaine the miranda filling this claass as you could swap out shuttle bays for mines...

Magnum357 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 13, 2005, 10:32:51 pm »

I agree, some sort of Miranda varient perhaps. I have always invisioned a ship similar to the Norway Class for TNG. At least, a design similar to it.

Garath9 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 13, 2005, 11:16:58 pm »

actually minelayer's and minesweeper's are considered auxillary vessel's not intended for combat and would be smaller than a CL or DD. That's not to say it can't look like a Miranda just not as
big. just my 2cents

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2005, 02:38:37 am »

Ya know I was thinking Miranda myself. Perhaps something like one of these ?
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/frigate_miramichi.jpg
or
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/frigate_knox.jpg
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/frigate_kiri.jpg
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/fastfrigate_daran.jpg
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/fastfrigate_brooke.jpg

The other train of thought I had was the Ranger
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/scout_ranger.jpg

But ultimately it's up to the community. SO keep the ideas comin'
-MP

Sochin · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2005, 04:31:03 am »

Defiant, shes even shown too do it on screen.

Magnum357 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2005, 12:44:40 pm »

I like that idea of a Modified Oberth Class with some other stuff added.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2005, 02:31:39 pm »

Ok so far we're down to CL or DD or Aux for Hull. BTW did I mention I'm trying to stay as true as I can to an SFB style ship.

Sweeper
Some sort of Miranda varient

Layer

Quote

how about a new kitbash
the rear miranda hull the forward section of the oberth with its nacelles retextured to look like the nacelle space is a dual mine bay on either side of the ship and a single mianda nacelle running on the underside of the ship.Minelayers and sweepers are supposed to be notoriously slow (that and i like oberth saucers)

Ya know MIles if it's gonna be a "slow" ship why not just do way with the nacelles all together( ie retexture them) and just go with impulse drive. There's a few oberth w/o pod over at Battleclinic,with a retexture anyone of them would do.
Defiant (TNG era)
Norway Class (TNG era)

More ideas please

I should have the final stats ready by tomorrow for the other races as well. NOw all we need are the ships LOL.

Ya know Mackie's really good at coming up with some unique designs maybe he'll read this and come up with something as well.
-MP

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2005, 06:11:11 pm »

Easy

Sweepers
TOS = Schtupp's Pegasus
TMP = Oberth
TLE = My Hawkeye and Oberth
TNG = Oberth
VOY = Oberth / Nova

Layers
TOS = Ptolemy
TMP = Oberth
TLE = Miranda
TNG = Miranda / an excel-style tug
VOY = Miranda / Intrepid

Sapharite · « **Reply #9 on:** May 15, 2005, 03:58:34 am »

I would use Maquis Raiders as Layers

They're fast they can be modified to hold more cargo. The other concept was to use Danube class Runabouts because they've got 4 interchangable modules which in my opinion can be adapted to lay mines

Sapharite · « **Reply #10 on:** May 15, 2005, 04:02:27 am »

Such Danube Modules can contain living quarters, labs, diplomatic facilities etc. Why couldn't they contain cargo and devices to lay mines?

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2005, 06:42:48 am »

Well, i dont think the raider or the danube has the cargo room for it. Yes they have enough to be used in a pinch - but wouldnt it be better to have an AUX ship filled with them?

Garath9 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 15, 2005, 07:02:52 am »

Quote from: Furyofaseraph on May 15, 2005, 06:42:48 am

Well, i dont think the raider or the danube has the cargo room for it. Yes they have enough to be used in a pinch - but wouldnt it be better to have an AUX ship filled with them?

Fury's right runabout's wouldn't have the cargoroom needed. Think of flleet tug's they would be
the right size with the room to hold a sh*t load of mine's and slow.

Captain Pierce · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2005, 08:35:25 am »

One thing to consider, though, is that at least in the TNG era, you don't have to carry the mines--just the raw material to replicate them from...

And it must not take much raw material to make a mine if a mine can replicate itself...

Personally, i tend to see Starfleet minelayers as modifications of existing, older ships. For example, in StressPuppy's TOS Homeworld mod, we used the Daedalus as a minelayer, under the assumption that a good portion of the secondary hull was hangar space where mine racks could be installed. Similarly, as mentioned before, the Miranda in TMP or later eras would be a good choice. In the Cardassian War or TNG eras, the Curry might work...

Sapharite · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2005, 08:42:58 am »

Pierce Your're right as well

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2005, 11:51:27 am »

The Oberth won't work as a Sweeper.........no room for drones. Other classes to consider............

Remora-TMP(LAYER)
Abbe-TMP(SWEEPER)
Larson-TOS(LAYER)
Nebula-TNG (SWEEPER)
Burke(SWEEPER)
New Orleans(Mid TNG SWEEPER)
Challanger(Mid TNG LAYER)
Centaur(Early TNG)
Trident(Early TNG)

I'm not even consider runabouts or fighters/shuttles.....way to small. Corvettes/Monitors are the smallest i'll consider.

The one that's for sure is the TNG layerer.... Defiant it's cannon so case closed there.
-MP

Victory · « **Reply #16 on:** May 15, 2005, 01:32:59 pm »

Just so you know, MP, we at alternate Universe actually put into our current mod minelayers for each race. We call them CSV (Combat Support Vessels) and they come stock with 6 antimater mine layers that you can't refit.

Captain Pierce · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2005, 05:28:01 pm »

Actually, on further thought, with replicator & transporter technology, in TNG, any ship could be a minelayer. Just replicate & beam, replicate & beam...

And I'm not sure that any era would need a dedicated minesweeper; the average phaser bank seems like a pretty good anti-mine weapon to me...

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2005, 07:35:48 pm »

Quote

And I'm not sure that any era would need a dedicated minesweeper; the average phaser bank seems like a pretty good anti-mine weapon to me...

They are but.......the mine layer I'm designing can dump 120 mines on the field of battle. No phaser ships gonna be able to deal with that, and fight other ships at the same time. Hence the choice for drones instead of photons.

Here's an example of the Fed TOS/TMP sweeper weapons.As everyone knows there are 6 ball turrets on the saucer grouped in pairs so........

3 sets 2X Ph2

1) 2X Ph2 FH arc
2) 2X Ph2 LS arc
3) 2X Ph2 RS arc

2 sets 1X Ph3 (point defense)

1) 1XPh3 LS
2) 1XPh3 RS

5 missile racks (haven't decided what type of drone yet)
*Obviously the key to using them will be how the mines are layed out. In clusters you want to use FIRE ALL MODE if the mines are spaced out FIRE ONE mode will work better. SO you'll have anywhere from 5 to 30 missiles firing at one time.
TOS will have 2 reloads
TMP and later ships will have 3 reloads.
Power is not a problem since the minesweeper must be nearly at a dead stop to sweep mines anyway.

For the Gorn I'm going with the Heavy Destroyer Hull for both sweeper/layer.
For the Roms I'm going withthe N8 (layer) and MR's Merlin for the sweeper so far.
*Both utilizing the Plasma F in a shotgun mode to distribute 6 mini plasma burst (ala drone missiles) to destroy mines. You can read how this works in the OP manual

Kzinti And Hydran....same as the Gorn, some medium sized ship.

That's what's swimming around in my head so far if that helps everyone see where I'm heading with this.
-MP

Victory · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2005, 07:51:12 pm »

Any ship can be a minesweeper............ once

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2005, 08:08:03 pm »

ROFL

Nice!

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2005, 08:24:35 pm »

Quote from: Victory on May 15, 2005, 07:51:12 pm

Any ship can be a minesweeper............ once

Very true

FPF-Wanderer · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2005, 04:55:09 am »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on May 14, 2005, 02:31:39 pm

Ok so far we're down to CL or DD or Aux for Hull. BTW did I mention I'm trying to stay as true as I can to an SFB style ship.

Well, if you want to go SFB...the original Fed minesweeper was the F-MS, based off the old workhorse Texas-Class CL. I'm sure you know what those look like. During the General War they also produced the F-NMS, based off of the new war cruiser (NCL) design. They also produced a frigate minehunter, the FFM, but it was an unpopular ship.

Anywhos, my two cents.

Pestalence_XC · « **Reply #23 on:** May 17, 2005, 12:49:15 am »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on May 15, 2005, 07:35:48 pm

Quote
And I'm not sure that any era would need a dedicated minesweeper; the average phaser bank seems like a pretty good anti-mine weapon to me...

They are but.......the mine layer I'm designing can dump 120 mines on the field of battle. No phaser ships gonna be able to deal with that, and fight other ships at the same time. Hence the choice for drones instead of photons.

Here's an example of the Fed TOS/TMP sweeper weapons.As everyone knows there are 6 ball turrets on the saucer grouped in pairs so........

3 sets 2X Ph2

1) 2X Ph2 FH arc
2) 2X Ph2 LS arc
3) 2X Ph2 RS arc

2 sets 1X Ph3 (point defense)

1) 1XPh3 LS
2) 1XPh3 RS

5 missile racks (haven't decided what type of drone yet)
*Obviously the key to using them will be how the mines are layed out. In clusters you want to use FIRE ALL MODE if the mines are spaced out FIRE ONE mode will work better. SO you'll have anywhere from 5 to 30 missiles firing at one time.
TOS will have 2 reloads
TMP and later ships will have 3 reloads.
Power is not a problem since the minesweeper must be nearly at a dead stop to sweep mines anyway.

For the Gorn I'm going with the Heavy Destroyer Hull for both sweeper/layer.
For the Roms I'm going withthe N8 (layer) and MR's Merlin for the sweeper so far.
*Both utilizing the Plasma F in a shotgun mode to distribute 6 mini plasma burst (ala drone missiles) to destroy mines. You can read how this works in the OP manual
Kzinti And Hydran....same as the Gorn, some medium sized ship.

That's what's swimming around in my head so far if that helps everyone see where I'm heading with this.
-MP

MP,

The only problem I forsee with your line of thought is that in Orion Pirates, you can not target a mine, you either have to target something on the other side of a mine and use a missle or shuttle to detonate the mine, or ram the mine with your ship..

My suggestion of a mine sweeper is a ship with tremendous Forward shield power for taking out mines, the rest of the shields remain normal power for the ship... maybe boost engine power for shield reinforcement of the #1, and keep weapon count on the ship low.. maybe arm it with 1 photon or 1 plas F or 1 Hellbore or 1 disruptor (only 1 of the heavy weapons, leaving out ESG and Fusion and PPD)and 4 PH 1's and a couple of 3's just for defensive purposes and forget the drones (Otherwise people will use it as a tactical ship for combat instead of the intended purpose of the ship). Lyrans should not have ESG on Mine Sweepers as it is also a formitable weapon on it's own.. they should use shields like everyone else.. Gorn should only have 1 Plas F, same as Roms and ISC.. Klinks, Lyr and Mirak should have 1 Disruptor on their ships.. Feds should have only 1 Photon, Hydran should have only 1 hellbore.. Etc.... this keeps the ship only useful forthe purpose intended.. to ram mines like crazy, but not be able to offer much of a fight otherwise..

Think the forward shield having 120 points, the rest have about 18-24 points power.. this makes the ship vulnerable from the sides and the rear.. This is due to the basically overloaded forward shield that is taking the 10 Pts damage from each mine.. 120 mines / 10 pts damage each = 12 mines rammed before shield drops (without reinforcement or time for shield to regenerate)... [ Not counting the 40 Pts damage when hitting a Nuclear Space Mine (Rom mine.. only 1 per ship per mission if it is available for the NSM, most ships do not have NSM in the Rom list by default)].

The ship would also have a lot of labs to help shield regeneration.. the more labs the faster shields regenerate.. as such, a Mine Sweeper would have about 10 to 15 labs for shield regen.

A ship like this would require escorts to defend it.

This makes the ship designed to take out mines and not mix it up in combat.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #24 on:** May 17, 2005, 01:01:23 am »

I'm starting not to like this game LOL J/K. Thanks for that heads up. I do like your concept of the sweeeper. Basically any ship will do as long as I boost the forward shielding and adjust the power accordingly. Dang I was looking forward to the chaos of a screen filled with mines and another ship trying to eradicate them. Oh well back to shipedit LOL. Oh one other question.

When I do create the mine layer, will the AI recognize it as such and start pumping out mines?

Pestalence_XC · « **Reply #25 on:** May 17, 2005, 01:05:19 am »

Unfortunately, no.. AI usually Tbombs the heck out of the nearest enemy and drops mines out the shuttle bay if enemy is coming directly at it within range 10... other than that, AI ignores the usage of mines..

Also Mine Layers would have many Transporters, but few marines... (T Bomb shower)

I also edited my above post, so you may want to check for context changes.

Rod ONeal · « **Reply #26 on:** May 17, 2005, 01:09:31 am »

There are two opposite trains of thought on mine layers/sweepers. One, old school, is that mining is dirty work and generally you take old obsolete designs. The other is that mine work is best accomlpished by a highly sophisticated specialised design. Thus, the early minelayers in SFB were refitted old designs and auxiliaries. during the General War though, the brand new NCL-class was fitted specially for the job.

None of the mine rules, as mentioned, are incorperated into SFC though. Except for some of the T-bomb rules. That said, the one real prerequisite for your minelayer is space. Space for mines as well as the drones.

There are specs for CWs with mine racks and their heavy weapons. They're designated NMZ. It'll take me a while to remember where I saw them though.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #27 on:** May 17, 2005, 01:19:01 am »

Thanks Pestalance, I'm getting a much better understanding of how this game works.And taking your thought process one step further, perhaps we can get someone to build a starship with a saucer protrusion similar to todays military mine sweeping tanks

. Just a thought.

Quote

There are specs for CWs with mine racks and their heavy weapons. They're designated NMZ. It'll take me a while to remember where I saw them though

Thanks Rod, got them already

. There's a few SFB/NCL's over at Battleclinic, mabye I'll grab one of them and experiment (though personally i don't dig the design) I'll make several types and put 'em in a ZIP and let everyone choose which they want to use.

Magnum357 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 17, 2005, 02:13:22 am »

I still like the idea of a Modified Oberth as a Light Minesweeper/layer. And it wouldn't be completely like an Oberth, extensive modifications would probably be in order for a Minelayer. Not sure if an Oberth would be an ideal minesweeper though.

I thought recalled that in SFB, Phasers could be used to destroy mines. I might have to look that up in the manual.

Rod ONeal · « **Reply #29 on:** May 17, 2005, 03:00:34 am »

Yes, you have to:

1, Mines in SFB are hidden. You must find the mine with special systems that the minesweeper has. (In a pinch you can use a scout for this, but fleet scouts are too valuable to use to groupe around for mines.) 2, Get in close without setting it off. 3, Stop and grab it with your tractor. 4, destroy it with a phaser.

Generally the base (or whatever installation that the mines are protecting) and it's support ships are targeting as much bad karma as possible at the minesweeper while it's doing this.

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #30 on:** May 17, 2005, 11:53:29 am »

Is there anyway to get the ships in SFC to be able to target mines with any weapons ?

Pestalence_XC · « **Reply #31 on:** May 17, 2005, 12:54:28 pm »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on May 17, 2005, 11:53:29 am

Is there anyway to get the ships in SFC to be able to target mines with any weapons ?

Unfortunately no.. If there was a way, people would do it all the time.. you can not target mines in SFC.. You can in SFB, It is a system never put into the real time enviroment of SFC... basically a mine in SFC is a drop and forget weapon, or actually used best as T-Bombs within range 5 of your target using F1 view to ensure accuracy.. Holding Shift and press B.. keep holding shift will keep your cursor locked in T-Bomb mode until you release it.. this way you can rapidly drop mines up to the numbet of transporters your ship has.. so if 7 Transporters.. 7 mines on target within 3 to 4 seconds.. then do it again after transporters are ready.. + 1 mine every 1.5 min out the shuttle bay (game speed 8).

Magnum357 · « **Reply #32 on:** May 17, 2005, 05:27:11 pm »

I guess the only type of "weapon" in SFC that could be used for Minesweeiping is the Heavy Forward Sheild method. But I do agree with others, you got to make the Minesweeper have heavy weaknesses in other areas otherwise everyone would pick that ship as its forward sheild would be almost unpeneratable to standard warships. And if the Minesweeper has Lots of T-bombs and Transporters as Pestelance has suggested... ouch!

Kana · « **Reply #33 on:** May 20, 2005, 01:06:01 am »

So far the ideas sound great...I like the idea of the heavy shield sweeper...agreed it would need weaknesses so it doesn't become and offensive juggernaut. In SFB...Minelayers, Sweepers, and mines in general...other than T-bombs...are usually only used in a defensive enviornment...IE Base/Planet Defense. 100 BPV will buy 15 Nuclear Space Mines (large t-bomb), 40 small (t-bomb), 3 large captor, 7 small captor, 4 sensor mines. Of course captor mines aren't covered in SFC...Minesweeping is a very important and annoying part of base assaults in SFB...

As for mine layers...the Fed CL minesweeper has 6 mine racks, which hold 4 large, or 8 small mines each. The Fed NCL has only 4 mine racks...also the mine sweeper is also usually the mine layer but this isn't always true...Only phasers and seeking weapons can be used to destroy mines...if they can achieve a lock on. Non-Minesweeper ships recieve a 6 point ECM penalty when shooting at mines with phasers or seeking weapons. BPV of the minesweeper/layer does not include the cost of its mines. There are twoshuttles that can lay mines MRS and MLS. There is also a MSS (Mine Sweeping Shuttle), think remote control robot mine probe. There is also usually a Mine sweeper/layer version of PF's

Well there is my 2 cents,

Kana

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #34 on:** May 22, 2005, 11:07:56 am »

Is it possible to have shuttles lay mines in SFC II/OP ?

Kana · « **Reply #35 on:** May 24, 2005, 11:51:24 pm »

Nope...at least not that I'm aware of...I do believe that some fighters have drones? Maybe a mine could be a zero movement drone launch...I don't know much about the SFC2 code. SFC2/OP like many other great games always have some limitations when trying to emulate another game system....

Kana

Magnum357 · « **Reply #36 on:** May 25, 2005, 12:42:30 am »

Man, I forgot that PF's in SFB where converted to Minelayers. I wonder if its possible to add this to SFC OP? Is it even in the 4.0 shiplist of OP?

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #37 on:** May 27, 2005, 12:31:05 am »

Ok decided on the Fed ship and got permissions. Now mt only question for everyone is............

Would you rather have the ship basically look normal ?

or

Should I redo the saucer textures to give it a more amored appearance ?

-MP

Chrystoff · « **Reply #38 on:** May 27, 2005, 08:46:53 am »

Quote from: Magnum357 on May 25, 2005, 12:42:30 am

Man, I forgot that PF's in SFB where converted to Minelayers. I wonder if its possible to add this to SFC OP? Is it even in the 4.0 shiplist of OP?

That's not a bad idea. Beef up the power a bit, remove all of the weapons, and just have all of it's power going to the sweeper-sheilds and propulsion...

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #39 on:** May 27, 2005, 10:15:26 am »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on May 27, 2005, 12:31:05 am

Ok decided on the Fed ship and got permissions. Now mt only question for everyone is............

Would you rather have the ship basically look normal ?

or

Should I redo the saucer textures to give it a more amored appearance ?

-MP

I would think that you would want the model to look unique so definitely #2, especially if your going to combine the function of minelayer and sweeper in one ship, since in SFC the only sweeping method is the "runoverthemine" method. In fact if your willing to do a little meshwork, it would be fairly simple to add Choabam or reactive type armor in the form of tightly conforming boxes to the front of the hull. Anyway only an idea.

Some examples of this:

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #40 on:** May 27, 2005, 09:16:08 pm »

Quote from: Lord Schtupp on May 27, 2005, 10:15:26 am

Quote from: ModelsPlease on May 27, 2005, 12:31:05 am
Ok decided on the Fed ship and got permissions. Now mt only question for everyone is............

Would you rather have the ship basically look normal ?

or

Should I redo the saucer textures to give it a more amored appearance ?

-MP

I would think that you would want the model to look unique so definitely #2, especially if your going to combine the function of minelayer and sweeper in one ship, since in SFC the only sweeping method is the "runoverthemine" method. In fact if your willing to do a little meshwork, it would be fairly simple to add Choabam or reactive type armor in the form of tightly conforming boxes to the front of the hull. Anyway only an idea.

Some examples of this:

Yeah great idea. 'Cept I can't mesh

, Do you think I could get away with trying to texture that armoour than mabye adding a 3d effect to it ? Or would that not do it justice ?

Mackie · « **Reply #41 on:** May 27, 2005, 10:02:17 pm »

ill see if i can bash together something :p

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #42 on:** May 28, 2005, 12:02:17 am »

Quote from: ModelsPlease on May 27, 2005, 09:16:08 pm

Yeah great idea. 'Cept I can't mesh , Do you think I could get away with trying to texture that armoour than mabye adding a 3d effect to it ? Or would that not do it justice ?

Sure I think texture only would look just fine, the M113 in the third pic is a good example. Im thinking that the additional armor would be dark bluish grey kind of color to contrast with the normal hull color, and the armor plates wold be thickest in the center-front of the saucer then get progessivly thinner farther out to the sides. So the top view of the saucer for example the armor belt would look like a blocky crescent shape. How about that?

What ship are you going to convert?

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #43 on:** May 28, 2005, 12:31:07 am »

Quote

What ship are you going to convert?

I was going to use Firesouls FEDEX for the TOS and TMP ships.

Quote

ill see if i can bash together something :p

That would be cool Mackie, thanks.

In the meantiime I'll start experimenting with textures and take your advice on color/thickness/placement and see hhow it turns out. I'll get a WIP up soon.

-MP

USS Mariner · « **Reply #44 on:** May 28, 2005, 09:58:26 am »

Quote from: Lord Schtupp on May 28, 2005, 12:02:17 am

Quote from: ModelsPlease on May 27, 2005, 09:16:08 pm

Yeah great idea. 'Cept I can't mesh , Do you think I could get away with trying to texture that armoour than mabye adding a 3d effect to it ? Or would that not do it justice ?

Sure I think texture only would look just fine, the M113 in the third pic is a good example. Im thinking that the additional armor would be dark bluish grey kind of color to contrast with the normal hull color, and the armor plates wold be thickest in the center-front of the saucer then get progessivly thinner farther out to the sides. So the top view of the saucer for example the armor belt would look like a blocky crescent shape. How about that?

What ship are you going to convert?

Actually, it might be better to have armour all around, as the mines might come in from the sides if they're targeting a heat or energy source, like the Romulan mines did in "Minefield."

ModelsPlease · « **Reply #45 on:** May 28, 2005, 04:25:22 pm »

Quote from: Fallen_Warrior on May 28, 2005, 12:53:14 pm

Quote
In the meantiime I'll start experimenting with textures and take your advice on color/thickness/placement and see hhow it turns out. I'll get a WIP up soon.

-MP

MP ive got some good armour textures for various races that can be mixed together if you want even armoured windows

Sweet Bro, I'll try to get MSN working . If not just send 'em to my email.

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Topic: OT : What should a Federation Mine Layer look like ? (Read 8553 times)