Topic: PPD never hits cloaked ships in OP v2.5.5.2

[Joku]

Hi

I tried with my friend to fire PPDs against a cloaked Romulan ship at range 4-5 and none of them hit. This shouldn't be a coincidence, since I fired at least 100 PPDs. There was also no attack shift. So do you think this is a bug and if it is, will it be fixed anymore?  ???

[Magnum357]

Well... if you had no attack shift, did you allocate any points torward ECCM?  Myabe I misunderstood your post.

[3dot14]

Hi

I tried with my friend to fire PPDs against a cloaked Romulan ship at range 4-5 and none of them hit. This shouldn't be a coincidence, since I fired at least 100 PPDs. There was also no attack shift. So do you think this is a bug and if it is, will it be fixed anymore?  ???

Ahhh, this has been so long ago... I used to know how these things work. Well, somebody please correct me if I am wrong:

But I thought that is the correct behaviour: Cloak=no fire control lock-on=no wavelock= no PPD hits, but PPD being a direct fire weapon, you can still fire/waste them if you wish...

[Pestalence_XC]

Cloak gives a shift of 3 to the cloaked ship, it does not show up on the display.. using ECCM at 6 poionts power will negate 2 of the shift, that is if the cloaking ship is not using ECM itself...

Now a cloaked ship can have a net of 5 shift if using 6 points power in ECM, and can even get to 8 shift us also using Eratic Manuvers (but giving the cloaked ship a - 3 shift to hit.. but since it is cloaked, that is cancelled out with the inability for fire anyways..

as such, it is hard to get Direct Fire heavy weapons to actually hit when they are hard pressed to hit anyways.. take Photons.. Normal Torps will miss 1 in 4 at range 4 with 0 shift... with a 2 shift, maybe 1 torp in 4 will hit at range 4, and that is only a 68% chance of doing so.. forget it with a cloaked ship and torps.. you may get 1 in 25 to hit at range 0 with ECCM at 6 on a cloaked ship using ECM...

it is not a bug, it is game design..

And even if the weapon hits.. the damage bracket is 33% chance for full damage, 33% chance for 1/2 damage and 33% chance for 1/4 damage....needless to say your shooting at the wind and hoping to hurt it.

[Joku]

When we tested it, cloaked ship didn't use ECM, ECCM or erratic maneuveurs but ISC ship had ECCM at full. And we fired at least 100 PPDs.

[Bonk]

But I thought that is the correct behaviour: Cloak=no fire control lock-on=no wavelock= no PPD hits, but PPD being a direct fire weapon, you can still fire/waste them if you wish...

Correct, no lockon - no wavelock - no hit. Sneaky Roms! 

[RazalYllib]

+ Double range and Add 5 once fully cloaked.

This can put outside OL range also

Try to flash rom, it will break cloak allowing a shot for the briefest of times and then there is a roll to retain lock on IIRC, after the effect of the "flash" has subsided, I think once wave lock is acheived after the initial lock, the other pulses will hit been awhile since I PvP ISC.

If the Electronic Warfare equation changes, I belive there is another lock on roll though, even if there are pulses to go.

[Joku]

My friend and I retested with ECCM at 6 and romulan not using ECM or erratic maneuveurs, so attack shift should be 1. We fired hundreds of PPDs at range 4 and they still didn't make a single hit. Range for hit should be about 2x4+5=13, so at least some of them should have hit.  ???

[Corbomite]

The PPD will not hit without a Lock On. Period. Nature of the beast. Other HW don't have this limitation. They can fire "blind".

[Joku]

But manual says about this matter only that each PPD pulse must hit independently when target is cloaked.. It doesn't say that PPD couldn't hit a cloaked target. 

[Corbomite]

This is correct if you can manage to get a Lock On. If you can tell me how you can flash a ship with a mine from range 4 without help from another unit you will have your solution. Also, as stated above, you will have to re-roll to retain the Lock On after flash subsides and the conditions change. The re-roll chances are pretty low.

[Joku]

At least at this thread is said that PPD should lock onto a cloaked ship:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163150414.0.html

[Corbomite]

Look at the patch number in the title. That was during testing working up to the 2552 patch which we use now. Lepton was pointing out that it was an error that it hit.

[Joku]

Perhaps I am then wrong. Though being able to fire PPDs at cloaked target (without lock-on and chance to hit) is still a small glitch.. it would be better if it couldn't fire and there would be a message saying that like with seeking weapons.

[Corbomite]

Well nobody ever said it wouldn't fire at a cloaked target, just that it wouldn't hit it. When you fire, the PPD wave tries to Lock On, but can't, so it misses.

[Joku]

Yes, I know that nobody said that it wouldn't fire, I just meant that if it can't hit, it would be better if it wouldn't even fire. This would remove some misunderstandings. (like in my case)

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Perhaps I am then wrong. Though being able to fire PPDs at cloaked target (without lock-on and chance to hit) is still a small glitch.. it would be better if it couldn't fire and there would be a message saying that like with seeking weapons.

Unlike other direct fire weapons, the PPD does not fire all at once.  The PPD fires in a number of pulses.  If something happens that exposes the cloaked vessel while you are firing, (Like your t-bomb going off) then I think your remaining pulses will hit.  (At least they will in the boardgame).

-S'Cipio

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

PPD is a direct fire weapon.  So it can hit.  Cloak is based on range displacement (I always thought) and not ECm but it can work in conjunction with ECM.  Speed also has something to do with it but only the speed of the ROM.

ISC XCA vs ROM XCA...

The game was at speed 11...so I figured it was a bug due to the high speed of the game.  Unfortinately more and more dudes are coming online camping on ridiculous speed 11 games but there are so few players left these days us vets are forced to play these stupid terms if we want a game.  My understyanding is that speed 11 is supposed to be bugged because it was really there as a debug feature and not meant for serious play. 

I played a dude online and nearly lost due to the cloak playing advanced ships.  Every time I would turn to fire he would have his ship starcastled and cloaked...I managed to get maybe one pulse through after about 8 passes.  Shift was usually at zero since I allways had ECCM at 6.    There is no way he could have used EM (erratic manuevers) on my passes to any effect in conjunction with the cloak because EM is supposed to negate the cloak (ahem). But at the game speed we were playing it is conceivable that he slipped the Em button on after I turned...we were playing in the rocks  and I didnt have time to check my shift during the pass because I had to calculate a safe trajectory away from his return X plamsa shot and still avoid rocks.

This would be something worth testing.  Not much we can do about it though.  The guy who programmed the last patch was basically a ROM (thats all I ever saw him fly when he came on line a few times) and I have so,me suspisions he left the ROMS with a little "bump" when he "fixed" the cloak.

O well.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

My friend and I retested with ECCM at 6 and romulan not using ECM or erratic maneuveurs, so attack shift should be 1. We fired hundreds of PPDs at range 4 and they still didn't make a single hit. Range for hit should be about 2x4+5=13, so at least some of them should have hit.  ???

Yup.  Most certainly. 

Bugged.

Like I said before that last patch...

Now that I think of it that one pulse that hit may have been due only to lag.

[RazalYllib]

David would never intentionally put a bonus to any race in the game...to suggest otherwise is dishonorable

This bug was known and reported, one of many that could not be fixed.

Perhaps when the source code is released, the problem will be solved, along with the other remaining issues.

In the interim there are counter-measures that work against the exploit, just ask around.