Topic: PPD never hits cloaked ships in OP v2.5.5.2

[Joku]

Hi

I tried with my friend to fire PPDs against a cloaked Romulan ship at range 4-5 and none of them hit. This shouldn't be a coincidence, since I fired at least 100 PPDs. There was also no attack shift. So do you think this is a bug and if it is, will it be fixed anymore?  ???

[Magnum357]

Well... if you had no attack shift, did you allocate any points torward ECCM?  Myabe I misunderstood your post.

[3dot14]

Hi

I tried with my friend to fire PPDs against a cloaked Romulan ship at range 4-5 and none of them hit. This shouldn't be a coincidence, since I fired at least 100 PPDs. There was also no attack shift. So do you think this is a bug and if it is, will it be fixed anymore?  ???

Ahhh, this has been so long ago... I used to know how these things work. Well, somebody please correct me if I am wrong:

But I thought that is the correct behaviour: Cloak=no fire control lock-on=no wavelock= no PPD hits, but PPD being a direct fire weapon, you can still fire/waste them if you wish...

[Pestalence_XC]

Cloak gives a shift of 3 to the cloaked ship, it does not show up on the display.. using ECCM at 6 poionts power will negate 2 of the shift, that is if the cloaking ship is not using ECM itself...

Now a cloaked ship can have a net of 5 shift if using 6 points power in ECM, and can even get to 8 shift us also using Eratic Manuvers (but giving the cloaked ship a - 3 shift to hit.. but since it is cloaked, that is cancelled out with the inability for fire anyways..

as such, it is hard to get Direct Fire heavy weapons to actually hit when they are hard pressed to hit anyways.. take Photons.. Normal Torps will miss 1 in 4 at range 4 with 0 shift... with a 2 shift, maybe 1 torp in 4 will hit at range 4, and that is only a 68% chance of doing so.. forget it with a cloaked ship and torps.. you may get 1 in 25 to hit at range 0 with ECCM at 6 on a cloaked ship using ECM...

it is not a bug, it is game design..

And even if the weapon hits.. the damage bracket is 33% chance for full damage, 33% chance for 1/2 damage and 33% chance for 1/4 damage....needless to say your shooting at the wind and hoping to hurt it.

[Joku]

When we tested it, cloaked ship didn't use ECM, ECCM or erratic maneuveurs but ISC ship had ECCM at full. And we fired at least 100 PPDs.

[Bonk]

But I thought that is the correct behaviour: Cloak=no fire control lock-on=no wavelock= no PPD hits, but PPD being a direct fire weapon, you can still fire/waste them if you wish...

Correct, no lockon - no wavelock - no hit. Sneaky Roms! 

[RazalYllib]

+ Double range and Add 5 once fully cloaked.

This can put outside OL range also

Try to flash rom, it will break cloak allowing a shot for the briefest of times and then there is a roll to retain lock on IIRC, after the effect of the "flash" has subsided, I think once wave lock is acheived after the initial lock, the other pulses will hit been awhile since I PvP ISC.

If the Electronic Warfare equation changes, I belive there is another lock on roll though, even if there are pulses to go.

[Joku]

My friend and I retested with ECCM at 6 and romulan not using ECM or erratic maneuveurs, so attack shift should be 1. We fired hundreds of PPDs at range 4 and they still didn't make a single hit. Range for hit should be about 2x4+5=13, so at least some of them should have hit.  ???

[Corbomite]

The PPD will not hit without a Lock On. Period. Nature of the beast. Other HW don't have this limitation. They can fire "blind".

[Joku]

But manual says about this matter only that each PPD pulse must hit independently when target is cloaked.. It doesn't say that PPD couldn't hit a cloaked target. 

[Corbomite]

This is correct if you can manage to get a Lock On. If you can tell me how you can flash a ship with a mine from range 4 without help from another unit you will have your solution. Also, as stated above, you will have to re-roll to retain the Lock On after flash subsides and the conditions change. The re-roll chances are pretty low.

[Joku]

At least at this thread is said that PPD should lock onto a cloaked ship:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163150414.0.html

[Corbomite]

Look at the patch number in the title. That was during testing working up to the 2552 patch which we use now. Lepton was pointing out that it was an error that it hit.

[Joku]

Perhaps I am then wrong. Though being able to fire PPDs at cloaked target (without lock-on and chance to hit) is still a small glitch.. it would be better if it couldn't fire and there would be a message saying that like with seeking weapons.

[Corbomite]

Well nobody ever said it wouldn't fire at a cloaked target, just that it wouldn't hit it. When you fire, the PPD wave tries to Lock On, but can't, so it misses.

[Joku]

Yes, I know that nobody said that it wouldn't fire, I just meant that if it can't hit, it would be better if it wouldn't even fire. This would remove some misunderstandings. (like in my case)

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Perhaps I am then wrong. Though being able to fire PPDs at cloaked target (without lock-on and chance to hit) is still a small glitch.. it would be better if it couldn't fire and there would be a message saying that like with seeking weapons.

Unlike other direct fire weapons, the PPD does not fire all at once.  The PPD fires in a number of pulses.  If something happens that exposes the cloaked vessel while you are firing, (Like your t-bomb going off) then I think your remaining pulses will hit.  (At least they will in the boardgame).

-S'Cipio

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

PPD is a direct fire weapon.  So it can hit.  Cloak is based on range displacement (I always thought) and not ECm but it can work in conjunction with ECM.  Speed also has something to do with it but only the speed of the ROM.

ISC XCA vs ROM XCA...

The game was at speed 11...so I figured it was a bug due to the high speed of the game.  Unfortinately more and more dudes are coming online camping on ridiculous speed 11 games but there are so few players left these days us vets are forced to play these stupid terms if we want a game.  My understyanding is that speed 11 is supposed to be bugged because it was really there as a debug feature and not meant for serious play. 

I played a dude online and nearly lost due to the cloak playing advanced ships.  Every time I would turn to fire he would have his ship starcastled and cloaked...I managed to get maybe one pulse through after about 8 passes.  Shift was usually at zero since I allways had ECCM at 6.    There is no way he could have used EM (erratic manuevers) on my passes to any effect in conjunction with the cloak because EM is supposed to negate the cloak (ahem). But at the game speed we were playing it is conceivable that he slipped the Em button on after I turned...we were playing in the rocks  and I didnt have time to check my shift during the pass because I had to calculate a safe trajectory away from his return X plamsa shot and still avoid rocks.

This would be something worth testing.  Not much we can do about it though.  The guy who programmed the last patch was basically a ROM (thats all I ever saw him fly when he came on line a few times) and I have so,me suspisions he left the ROMS with a little "bump" when he "fixed" the cloak.

O well.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

My friend and I retested with ECCM at 6 and romulan not using ECM or erratic maneuveurs, so attack shift should be 1. We fired hundreds of PPDs at range 4 and they still didn't make a single hit. Range for hit should be about 2x4+5=13, so at least some of them should have hit.  ???

Yup.  Most certainly. 

Bugged.

Like I said before that last patch...

Now that I think of it that one pulse that hit may have been due only to lag.

[RazalYllib]

David would never intentionally put a bonus to any race in the game...to suggest otherwise is dishonorable

This bug was known and reported, one of many that could not be fixed.

Perhaps when the source code is released, the problem will be solved, along with the other remaining issues.

In the interim there are counter-measures that work against the exploit, just ask around.

[Corbomite]

IT IS NOT A BUG! THE PPD WILL NOT HIT WITHOUT A LOCK ON! YOU MUST ROLE FOR LOCK ON TO A CLOAKED SHIP AND AT LOW SPEEDS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT  IT BECAUSE THE NUMBER NEEDED IS TOO LOW.

The equation to (re)aquire a Lock On is:


P = S - (EW) - RF + SF - 10

Where:

P = Probability of aquiring a Lock On

S = Sensor rating of ship trying to Lock On (max sensor rating is 6 in SFC, no Scout functions)

EW = Electronic Warfare adjustment

RF = Range Adjustment Factor

SF = Speed Adjustment Factor

You must role equal to or less than the result of this equation.


So for example if the target is going speed 0 and is at range 4 from the PPD ship the equation looks like this (assuming no EW shift):


P = 6 - (0) - 0 + (-2) - 10

Your chance to Lock On is negative 6 on a six sided die.



If the target is going speed 1 - 4 the equation looks like this:


P = 6 - (0) - 0 + 0 - 10

Your chance to Lock On is negative 4 on a six sided die.



If the target is going max cloaked speed without setting off mines (speed 6) the equation looks like this:

P = 6 - (0) - 0 + 1 - 10

Your chance to Lock On is negative 3 on a six sided die.


If the target is going the max speed (or faster) that the chart allows which is 19+ the equation looks like this:


P = 6 - (0) - 0 + 6 - 10

Your chance to Lock On is 2 on a six sided die.


Now please stop saying its a bug.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

David would never intentionally put a bonus to any race in the game...to suggest otherwise is dishonorable

This bug was known and reported, one of many that could not be fixed.

Perhaps when the source code is released, the problem will be solved, along with the other remaining issues.

In the interim there are counter-measures that work against the exploit, just ask around.

Thank you Imperial Romulan Information Service-senior ...  I can't of a better place to ask than here, on the main community forum, on a thread focused on this very topic.

How do you beat the bug?

[Corbomite]

How do you beat the bug?

By cheating and I'm not going to tell you how since it isn't a bug.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

How do you beat the bug?

By cheating and I'm not going to tell you how since it isn't a bug.

O Poo...I was hoping it was a legitimate tactic...or do you know? hmm?

Anyway what you are saying is that if I'm flying a ROM X ship and going speed 31 the PPD still only has a 33% chance of hitting...correct?

[Corbomite]

Correct although it has a 33% chance of gaining a Lock On to be able to hit, then you must roll To Hit. Now if you manage to flash the ship, thereby automatically gaining a Lock On, the formula for retaining a Lock On is much more liberal. In fact at range 4 and speed 1 - 4 you will automatically retain it and hit with all four pulses, assuming you make the To Hit roll.

I am probably only one of two people who know the cheat and I never use it, but it does exsist.

[Joku]

We tested PPD against cloaked ship going at speed 20+ and none of the PPDs made a single hit at range 4. Romulan didn't use ECM or erratic maneuveurs and ISC's ECCM was at full. And we fired a lot of them.

PPD's also always lost lock-on when ship recloaked after mine flash and remaining pulses didn't hit.

[Corbomite]

What range? There is a chance you just rolled badly a lot. Did the ship go closer than 4 at all? I have had the PPD retain Lock On after cloaking. As I said, you still have to roll To Hit. 83% is not 100%. I guess I'll have to get in there and test it again. I suppose it is possible they used the attain formula only for both instances. Keep in mind that each pulse must make the roll(s) independantly. I'd forgotten that when I posted earlier.

[Corbomite]

OK I just tested it and I had one pulse hit after cloaking (out of about 30 shots). I do believe they are not using the correct retaining formula as it should have hit more at the range I was at. The aquring formula seems to be working correctly, but I don't have a live player right now to do specific things. Be that as it may, the PPD still won't hit without a Lock On, whatever system they use to get/lose the Lock On. Dave may have indeed left it a little tight to help improve the cloak. Look at it this way, it makes up for the fact that MIRV submunitions ignore the cloak entirely.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

OK I just tested it and I had one pulse hit after cloaking (out of about 30 shots). I do believe they are not using the correct retaining formula as it should have hit more at the range I was at. The aquring formula seems to be working correctly, but I don't have a live player right now to do specific things. Be that as it may, the PPD still won't hit without a Lock On, whatever system they use to get/lose the Lock On. Dave may have indeed left it a little tight to help improve the cloak. Look at it this way, it makes up for the fact that MIRV submunitions ignore the cloak entirely.

Not unless the ISC acquire MIRVs I would think.

Anyway I noticed the cloak works really well now against plasma but less well against drones in general, epecially a whole mess of them. 

[Pestalence_XC]

OK I just tested it and I had one pulse hit after cloaking (out of about 30 shots). I do believe they are not using the correct retaining formula as it should have hit more at the range I was at. The aquring formula seems to be working correctly, but I don't have a live player right now to do specific things. Be that as it may, the PPD still won't hit without a Lock On, whatever system they use to get/lose the Lock On. Dave may have indeed left it a little tight to help improve the cloak. Look at it this way, it makes up for the fact that MIRV submunitions ignore the cloak entirely.

Not unless the ISC acquire MIRVs I would think.

Anyway I noticed the cloak works really well now against plasma but less well against drones in general, epecially a whole mess of them.

Incorrect.. If you slow your ship to speed 4 while cloaked.. 98% of the missles will lose lock immediately.. the rest will lose lock 1 to 5 seconds later... and even then they hit acording to the damage chart that effects cloak as stated in patch 2552 readme :

6) While under cloak, Weapons damage is reduced according to the following chart:
   33.3% chance weapon does normal damage.
   33.3% chance weapon does 1/2 damage.
   33.3% chance weapon does 1/4 damage.

This makes drones even less effective against cloak..

To be honest with you.. on GW 5, I've had more luck getting a Plas F to hit on a suicidal overrun than I did firing 12 missles at my target.. 6 of them hit from a Scatter Pack (launched right over my target) for a lousy 10 pts damage and that was through a down shield and I heard all 6 hit.. Yet I had 2 Plas F hit in a different match on a cloaked ship through a downed rear shield and they did 18 pts damage...

Speed is a critical factor when concerned with Cloak.. the faster you go, the less effective your cloak is.

and as Corb stated.. the rolls that the game makes effect things alot as well.

[Rod ONeal]

No, you didn't drop a SP on a cloaking ship @ range zero! ...and you said that you don't cheat.

That's another bug. Seeking shuttles don't use a control channel and don't loose lock on to a cloaked target.

You mentioned that the plasmas were more effective against the cloak. That sounds correct since plasma has a +3 ECCM. Does OP give plasma the ECCM, to your knowledge?

[Pestalence_XC]

No, you didn't drop a SP on a cloaking ship @ range zero! ...and you said that you don't cheat.

That's another bug. Seeking shuttles don't use a control channel and don't loose lock on to a cloaked target.

You mentioned that the plasmas were more effective against the cloak. That sounds correct since plasma has a +3 ECCM. Does OP give plasma the ECCM, to your knowledge?

No.. SP was dropped before ship went to cloak, but ship cloaked while SP was in air (I ate 2 Plas s before he cloaked)... they all (6) plus 2 normal missles (rest lost lock on) hit for 10 pts. through down shield.. Rom speed was 3...

Same goes for the 2 plas F I fired in different match... He fired Plas R (which I ate) and I fired 2 Plas F.. he cloaked to negate plas F but still had speed 6 going (and slowing) and the Plas F hit thru down shield.. this got 18 Pts damage.

No Cheat or exploit used.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Well I just had a nightmare game last night.

Lasted two hours into a stalmate.  ISC BB vs KCN (my opponnent)

Two hours and we both called it quits.  After my mines were gone I had no way to hit this guy except with innumerable fly bys and phaser shots.  The occasional pulse I managed to slip by at the rate I could manage it probably didn't even keep ahead of his regen rate.  He couldn't hit me and I could hit him but barely...so I suppose i would have won in 6 or 7 hours.  But the KCn is fairly immune to that kind of tactic, especially against a DN class ship with only 11 phaser 1's.  He had PF's and I had fighters as well.  Buit thjey were used up and countered.

My real objection to this "new cloak" is that the full effects oftentimes take place before the ship is completely cloaked.

I don't know what SFB says.  The way I see it if I guy can make you miss at will simply by tapping his cloak button  the game suffers baddly.    Add that to the fact that you cannot hit and run the cloak once out of mines you can sometimes just be out of luck. 

Nothing is worse than spending a whole lot of time manuevering and calculating a damage exchange (I am going speed 26 and firing an S torp at range 7 against a return R torp shot) only to find out that one impulse into his "cloaking" transition your S torp is completely gone after it leaves your ship against a ship not even fully cloaked.

So my question is...

What are the rules in SFB.  When a ship is in the process of cloaking what are the percentages of the "cloak" having an effect?   How many impusles does it take to transition?   Is it a set amount or a gradient or should it have no effect until the cloak is completely set?

These things need to be tested for I do not trust what I am seeing.

[Rod ONeal]

In SFB it takes 5 impulses to completely cloak/uncloak. During this "fade" period the effective range increases by +1 per impulse. At full cloak range is double whatever the actual range is (assuming lock-on is lost) +5.

With that said, as has already been pointed out, the PPD won't hit period without a lock-on in SFB.

[kiloton]

You should not lose lock-on to the cloaking ship until it is fully cloaked.  As mentioned before, the effective range to the target should increase by one per impulse until 5 impulses later, when a check for retaining lock-on should be made.  If lock on is lost, then seeking weapons go away.  If not, then they continue to the target.

I am confused.  Is there really a difference here between SFC and SFB?  Can you just tap the cloak button and make stuff go away without waiting for the entire fade period?

Anyone?

Ken

[Corbomite]

You should not lose lock-on to the cloaking ship until it is fully cloaked.  As mentioned before, the effective range to the target should increase by one per impulse until 5 impulses later, when a check for retaining lock-on should be made.  If lock on is lost, then seeking weapons go away.  If not, then they continue to the target.

I am confused.  Is there really a difference here between SFC and SFB?  Can you just tap the cloak button and make stuff go away without waiting for the entire fade period?

Anyone?

Ken

No. The fade period is in effect.