Topic: Are YOU ready for a hybrid?

[Jack Morris]

Man o man, Toyota is going to release a hybrid Camry Solara convertible? Yippie! 

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_17/b3930138_mz070.htm

[J. Carney]

When Ford or Chevy starts making a ^1_/2-ton that can tow a Ford 4000 tractor with a disc/bushhog/planter/_____ (insert attachment here) and enough seed/fretilizer/diesel/etc for us to plant gardens/cut paperwood/haul gravel for driveways... THEN AND ONLY THEN will I connsider a hybrid.


People are catering to the wrong crowd. It's not the ecofreaks that need hybrids- they just go to the mall and their civil disorder meetings.

The working man needs a hybrid/fuel cell/ethenol-powered vehicle to drive. THAT's the way to cut oil consumption.

[Jack Morris]

I agree on the ethanol issue, and one day, possibly within a few years we shall see corn farmers becoming the new "oil money makers class." 

Too bad Mexico is monopolized, PEMEX rules the land, and they are as corrupt as they come, otherwise Mexicans could start increasing their disposable income and lifestyle because of their HUGE corn production.

[J. Carney]

I agree on the ethanol issue, and one day, possibly within a few years we shall see corn farmers becoming the new "oil money makers class." 

I have NO CLUE why Detroit don't go with alcohol as their primary fuel.

Case in point:

Put two shot glasses on a table beside each other. Fill one with gasoline; fill the other with grain alcohol. Now decide which one you want to set on fire first:

If you light the alcohol first, then the fumes from the gas are gonna flash and singe off your eyebrows.
If you light the gasoline first, then the fumes from the gas are gonna flash and singe off your eyebrows.


OK, maybe that wasn't such a good example, lets try it agian.

Fill a shot glass with alcohol. Set it on fire. Watch it burn nice and evenly.
Now fill a shot glass with gasoline. Set it on fire. Since you've already singed off your eyebrows, you've got nothing left to loose by trying it.


I know itwould take a little work to swap our standard ICE designs over to ethanol, but it would be FAR cheaper- and just about as clean- as any of the other alternatives. They could keep the same production methods and assembly plants. They'd have to do a fair to midling amount of work on engine design, bu it's cheaper than coming up with a whole new type of car.

[Jack Morris]

Diesels can typically run 300k plus without an overhaul, you might get 200k nowadays from gas powered. It's been scientifically proven that ethanol combustion combined with proper maintenance (I ALWAYS use synthetic motor oil) can easily meet or beat the current diesel engine lifespan before needing an overhaul.

[Brush Wolf]

J. Carney, one issue that the automakers would have to overcome would be starting during cold weather. Not the twenty above that is generally considered cold in the southern parts of the US but the forty below that is not uncommon in the northern parts of the continent because of the low vapor pressure of alcohol at such low temperatures. Another and less critical issue with alcohol would be the lower fuel mileage which could be at least partically overcome by using larger fuel tanks. A very positive upside to alcohol would be the 115 octane.

[J. Carney]

J. Carney, one issue that the automakers would have to overcome would be starting during cold weather. Not the twenty above that is generally considered cold in the southern parts of the US but the forty below that is not uncommon in the northern parts of the continent because of the low vapor pressure of alcohol at such low temperatures. Another and less critical issue with alcohol would be the lower fuel mileage which could be at least partically overcome by using larger fuel tanks. A very positive upside to alcohol would be the 115 octane.

You could partially solve the cold-start problem with glow plugs similar to those used in diesel engines, couldn't you? Alcohol doesn't freeze till it get's a lot colder that January in even MN or WI. If you can make diesels start there and in Alaxka and Siberia, you can make an ethanol engine start.

If we would start to make ethanol in quantity, the mileage wouldn't really be a problem. Alcohol-powered cars do have to tank up every 150 miles or so, but so did a '55 Chevrolet. Bigger feul tanks would be one solution. Another- which would coincidentally help the economy a bit- would be simply opening more fuel stations. You'd not only be helping to solve the feul mileage problem, youd be making a lot of new jobs.

Till then, though, my Silverado is getting about 17 city/20 highway. I'm not complaining.

[Brush Wolf]

Actually some form of fuel heater would probably be better than the glow plug as that wouldn't require a redesign of the head(s) and could also be retrofitted to carbureted engines which would be more affected by the cold when using alcohol.

17/20! I would have killed to be able to get even 15 with my old F150 which go a steady 9/9.  My current '90 Bonneville gets 18-20 city and 24-26 highway so I really can't complaineither.

[J. Carney]

Actually some form of fuel heater would probably be better than the glow plug as that wouldn't require a redesign of the head(s) and could also be retrofitted to carbureted engines which would be more affected by the cold when using alcohol.

17/20! I would have killed to be able to get even 15 with my old F150 which go a steady 9/9.  My current '90 Bonneville gets 18-20 city and 24-26 highway so I really can't complaineither.

LOL... my first truck was an '80 C10 with a 307 Olds in it to replace a diesel that blew up. She got about 8 MPG, so i can understand that. My current lady was showroom new when I got her, a week ago last year. That's why it does so good on gas, these new 327's sip gas like a 4-banger with double the horses and more torque than I'll need for a while.

[Commander La'ra]

I'd be happy if Toyota came out with a hybrid Tundra.  I drive one with a V8 in it.  The gas mileage is better than the v6 Ford car I was driving before.  I don't use it so much for hauling really heavy loads, but the practicality of a pickup truck is part of what makes it so hard to go back to cars once you've owned one, especially since I have an extended cab and don't lose the ability to haul around my misbegoten friends.

I have to disagree though, that little cars with hybrid engines are a wasted effort; when I lived 'in town', the Camry I owned then got much reduced gas mileage than it did when I lived where the driving was more open and highwayish.  The difference was enough that, before I was told the difference in highway and city mileage, I thought something was bad wrong with my car.  That, given that the hybrid's out so far are fairly cheap, makes me think they're targetting the right people:  Low/middle income urban dwellers who want a practical car that's cheap to keep gassed up.

I do agree with Carney that we should've been running on alcohol a long time ago.  It's renewable, and any problems with it would be easily solved with a little time and effort.

[Dracho]

Alcohol is a land-intensive solution.  Are you willing to tell the ecologists to shut-up when they are complaining about more and more land being cleared to raise crops that will be burned in our engines?  There is always going to be a down-side to any alternative fuel. 

[Commander La'ra]

There are ways to reduce the land-area required.  For one thing, there's a lot of waste food and organic garbage that can be allowed to ferment and produce alcohol. For another, there are hydroponics and other technologies that might allow us to grow a lot of grain in much less space.

We also live in a country that pays farmers NOT to grow things, at times.

[Dracho]

Can it be made from something other than corn?  Corn crops deplete nutrients in the soil at an astounding rate, and generally, the land must be fallowed for a while after a corn crop.

[J. Carney]

Can it be made from something other than corn?  Corn crops deplete nutrients in the soil at an astounding rate, and generally, the land must be fallowed for a while after a corn crop.

Dracho, what can you make whiskey out of?

corn
barley
wheet
potatos
grapes (of, vermouth isn't really whiskey, but...)
rice

ANYTHING that ferments can be used to make ethanoll, some things just require more distilation to make the pure stuff.

[Dracho]

Ahhh... forgot about that..

Potatos are good.. the Germans made a lot of fuel from potatos near the end of the war..

[Jack Morris]

Trembles and remembers the time Jack tried Saki at an oriental restaurant, it was served warm and tastes really bad. 

[KBF-Angel Slayer]

There are ways to reduce the land-area required.  For one thing, there's a lot of waste food and organic garbage that can be allowed to ferment and produce alcohol. For another, there are hydroponics and other technologies that might allow us to grow a lot of grain in much less space.

We also live in a country that pays farmers NOT to grow things, at times.

What are you trying to do, put Boones' Farm and MD 20-20 out of business?  Or merely make them expand?  Give me a six pack of coke and a tank full of Mad Dog, please.

[Clark Kent]

I agree on the ethanol issue, and one day, possibly within a few years we shall see corn farmers becoming the new "oil money makers class." 

Too bad Mexico is monopolized, PEMEX rules the land, and they are as corrupt as they come, otherwise Mexicans could start increasing their disposable income and lifestyle because of their HUGE corn production.

Ethanol is great, it's just that you have to put in tons of water to grow the crops to create ethanol .  In the end you trade the benefits of getting off the dependancy for oil for a loss in water.  Not a big deal for the us up here in the land of 10,000 lakes, but a huge deal elsewhere in the country.  Methanol is a better choice, as it can be found in natural deposits and can be produced easier than ethanol without tyhe waste of so much water.

[KBF-Angel Slayer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it also burn at a higher temp?

[Clark Kent]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it also burn at a higher temp?

You're correct, the alcohol burns at a higher temp, and many engines are not capable of operating with temperatures like that.  Most cars made since 2001 are capable of running E85 or M85, though.  Just make sure you're car is labelled as a FFV (Flexible Fuel Vehicle)