Topic: OK her is the deal on GW5 contining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kroma BaSyl]

What does LB have to do with leaders and players agreeing to the rules as they were finalized and presenting with, with regard to the draft for KCW?

Ok...so the rules were finallized...

Absolutely nothing. The rules weren't changed, they were still being discussed and then Hooch decided to do it his way.

Ok...so the rules were not in fact finalized....

Are you being deliberately obtuse?  When Hooch decided to go with the draft afterall, it was BEFORE anyone signed up for the server. Thus at that point in time the rules were still a work in progress, just because it was being considered to allow the KBF to field a team of their own up until that time doesn't mean any "mid-server" rules change occurred. At that point, BEFORE anyone signed up for the server Hooch decided to stick to his original plan of going with a straight draft. The KBF obviously disagreed with that decision, yet still signed up for the server under the condition of submitting to a full draft.

When Hooch announced his decision and created a draft sign up thread the rules regarding the server sign up and draft were finalized.

Do you understand now?

Not keeping my word?....collusion?

I signed up under the thread as intended...in order to play...it was a requirement....

Either trades were legal or they were not....no two ways about it...

Trades were allowed. Trades never even occurred. Because 2 of the three teams decided to circumvent the draft and rig it by colluding pre-draft. It even went as far as a team captian attempting to coerce Jinn into revealing the means of the draft mechanics and asking him to advise as to the best way to circumvent it so as to assure that the admins (Hooch's) intention of a full draft was not respected.

How you ican nterpret these actions as having anything to do with potential post draft trading (which never even occurred) is beyond comprehension.

Well....then what did LB have to do with KCW at all?....why go 100% draft as a result of LB as Jeff said?

I'm aware there was going originally to be a draft....then there wasnt....then a partial draft....then a full draft...

What I'm saying is...this didnt happen in a vacume....there is clear cause and effect...

The end effect being to give many players the collective finger....wether they actually did anything wrong or not...

Again...I have no quarrel with you...so please dont infer that I am cheater....or do not keep my word.

Ok first I will apologise, as didn't mean you personally were involved in the cheating. I used the word "you" inclusively, but really meant just the race leaders involved with the pre-draft collusion and cohesion. I have no reason to believe any KBF or other player had anything to do with it. You seemed to be at least partially aware of what was attempted though, so I may have wrongly assumed you were either involved or condoned the cheating.

As to giving the players the finger, it just doesn't hold water. It was Hooch's server, Hooch's effort, he made the final decision as to the conditions. He made those public knowledge to the players before they signed up on the thread for the draft. If they didn't want to play under those conditions then they shouldn't have signed up.

The race leaders involved also understood the conditions, but instead of adhering to them attempted to circumvent the draft and create an all KBF team against the wishes and setup of the admin. And was an affront to all the players that signed up for the server with a full draft in good faith.

Any reference to Hooch's final decision on how to run his server having anything to do with LB, can be nothing more than rationalization for the cheating that then occurred, as those involved in the cheating, new the rules they ultimately agreed to abide by, yet didn't follow. They could have simply not played or volunteered to lead a team if they felt that Hooch had broken some promise to them, instead they took the dishonorable route of trying to rig it so they would get their way, and in doing so cheated on all the players that signed up for the draft and server under the FINAL conditions posted.

You are correct in there beng a clear cause and effect though. The cause is if certian race leaders don't get their way (and I am not just referring to coalition race leaders), then the effect is for them to cheat. You mention the back and forth on the draft decision, but seem to only latch onto the position you supported as the one that was taken away unfairly from player, but that wasn't even the original intent. It was a matter being discussed, and in the end not the one that won out. No rug was pulled out from anyones feet as at the time the FINAL decision on how to handle it was made no one had yet to even sign up for the server.

[FPF-Wanderer]

<sigh>

Ya wanna know why Hooch wanted a draft?  It had nothing to do with LB or punishment or spite.  Hooch wanted a draft so that players who normally flew on opposing sides (read Klinks and Feds) would be forced to fly together.  They could get to know each other a bit, have some fun on voice comms, wing together, and maybe, just maybe, the animus that has plagued this community for so very long might be lessened, if even only by a little.

Oh, the irony...

[Kroma BaSyl]

<sigh>

Ya wanna know why Hooch wanted a draft?  It had nothing to do with LB or punishment or spite.  Hooch wanted a draft so that players who normally flew on opposing sides (read Klinks and Feds) would be forced to fly together.  They could get to know each other a bit, have some fun on voice comms, wing together, and maybe, just maybe, the animus that has plagued this community for so very long might be lessened, if even only by a little.

Oh, the irony...

Absolutely true, this was the whole premise of the server originally, they will never believe it though as it takes the steam out of their hate.

And now by deliberately setting out to demoralize the few Alliance player that showed up and stuck it out against the odds in order to at least make the server somewhat fun and worth playing on, they have completed the task of driving off the last vestiges of anyone to play the game against. Oh well, it had to happen sometime. Well actually it didn't have to happen (Hooch realized this at least), but with such attitudes it was bound to.

[WarSears]

<sigh>

Ya wanna know why Hooch wanted a draft?  It had nothing to do with LB or punishment or spite.  Hooch wanted a draft so that players who normally flew on opposing sides (read Klinks and Feds) would be forced to fly together.  They could get to know each other a bit, have some fun on voice comms, wing together, and maybe, just maybe, the animus that has plagued this community for so very long might be lessened, if even only by a little.

Oh, the irony...

I have a hard time believing that when the SSCF flew Klingon on what ever server a long time ago they used there own Voice coms and wouldn't join ares.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I have a hard time believing that when the SSCF flew Klingon on what ever server a long time ago they used there own Voice coms and wouldn't join ares.

That is insane paranoia Sears. Hooch had publically posted this several times about his desire for the KCW server, and before any of the back and forth over whether to do a draft or not.

If you think Hooch was lying about this and had some other sinester reason for wanting a draft, please share it with us. What other possible rational would he have had for wanting a full draft originally on KCW, other than what he stated?

I find it hard to believe he put all the effort into the server, then said he wanted a draft to help bring the community together, all as some part of secrete plot to strike at the KBF. Even if Hooch were that vindictive, which he is not, he is hardly that subtle.

Instead it was the final olive branch from the last remaining large scale Alliance fleet thrown in their face. You are all still holding grudges against Feds long after they stopped caring about whatever it was you were mad at each other about. In fact I think the individuals you were actually the madest at had left the game years prior, but folks just can't put it behind them and move forward. Hooch attempted to do that himself, only to be rebuffed. I can't blame him for giving up and moving on, as I am rapidly coming to that same point over a game I love to play.

[Capt Jeff]

WS,

when the SSCF was a large group, like they were for IDSL, they often were on their own voice comms.   This was their way no matter if they flew Fed or Klingon.

It was the mere FACT that they chose to fly against the federation and with the Klingons that should of been appreciated, not what comms they used as being on seperate voice comms was the norm for them.

[TheJudge]

SSCF almost always uses their own comms.  They did that on every SFC3 server I can remember, only occasionally joining the rest of us...

[KBF-Crim]

I have a hard time believing that when the SSCF flew Klingon on what ever server a long time ago they used there own Voice coms and wouldn't join ares.

That is insane paranoia Sears. Hooch had publically posted this several times about his desire for the KCW server, and before any of the back and forth over whether to do a draft or not.

If you think Hooch was lying about this and had some other sinester reason for wanting a draft, please share it with us. What other possible rational would he have had for wanting a full draft originally on KCW, other than what he stated?

I find it hard to believe he put all the effort into the server, then said he wanted a draft to help bring the community together, all as some part of secrete plot to strike at the KBF. Even if Hooch were that vindictive, which he is not, he is hardly that subtle.

Instead it was the final olive branch from the last remaining large scale Alliance fleet thrown in their face. You are all still holding grudges against Feds long after they stopped caring about whatever it was you were mad at each other about. In fact I think the individuals you were actually the madest at had left the game years prior, but folks just can't put it behind them and move forward. Hooch attempted to do that himself, only to be rebuffed. I can't blame him for giving up and moving on, as I am rapidly coming to that same point over a game I love to play.

Well...yes it was hoochies server...and like I said...yes...he was very nogotiable to the two on one..or even a partial draft...all through planning...

But he didnt make the post I referenced either...Jeff did...maybe it is my own perspective as to the meaning of it...but he said 100% draft...and that's exactly how things went down.....so I can only rightly assume it had something to do with it...

Also...as I said..I had a quite pleasant visit to Ann Arbor to meet Moggy Jeff and Mav and we actually discussed the topic for a while without any of that comming up......(left quite chinese eyed too) ....so I was pretty shocked to see Jeff's post....

You may also remember that the Klingon Mercinary Force reared it's lumpy head...from what I saw at least 7 pilots were ready to go zorro and fly mercinary anonymously for any[/b] house...but it was deemed by some in command that this act might in it self appear to be dishonorable in some way and twisted from the original intent...to allow a vehicle for klink regulars to do battle to the death with brothers and still remain guilt free...( I know the notion that blasting a former wingman to pieces is ok to many...but for some...it is not...)...

You may rightly assume that I was one of those KMF pilots.

So while I now rightly admit that I may not know all the inner workings of what happened....this bit of information should illustrate that you dont either...

Since this information was independant of KBF fleet business.....I felt I could rightfully share it with you...

IMHO...the only way a full 3 way draft will work is to be blind draw, random numbers...period....no trades...dont like the team your on?...dont play...

It's the only way that any one faction , or any individual, wont be able to claim bias in selection...

I would even go so far as to suggest that people sign up with psuedonyms and use one unified fleet tag per house to keep any past redress off the server...

Look..I'm just as guilty for bringing it up as anyone...but we really need to settle this crap....I'm tired of seeing three server old complaints used to complain about a server that isnt even up yet...

At some time...it's time for a complete break from the past...or we may never see our collective future...

[Mazeppa]

I was an Deputy House leader under TraceyG (I cant believe I just typed that) and I thought the draft was going GREAT. 

The draft was fine, it was the back room dealings and trades that tanked the server.

What specific back room dealings and trades tanked the server?  Shall we publish the inintial draft list and the list after the trades?  Might prove enlightening.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I was an Deputy House leader under TraceyG (I cant believe I just typed that) and I thought the draft was going GREAT. 

The draft was fine, it was the back room dealings and trades that tanked the server.

What specific back room dealings and trades tanked the server?  Shall we publish the inintial draft list and the list after the trades?  Might prove enlightening.

No trades were ever actually made. The initial draft lists are inlightening though as they show the improbablilty of the draft result without accounting for 2 teams colluding and cheating. Collusion that was later confirmed to me directly from the perpetrators, even with the rationalizations attached. I have saved all of those corospondence in a CYA file.

In stead of attempting to hide your actions why not just tell folks what you did as you were directly involved?

[WarSears]

WS,

when the SSCF was a large group, like they were for IDSL, they often were on their own voice comms.   This was their way no matter if they flew Fed or Klingon.

It was the mere FACT that they chose to fly against the federation and with the Klingons that should of been appreciated, not what comms they used as being on seperate voice comms was the norm for them.

I'm just stating a fact they chose not to interact whit the coallition. About them flying against the Feds most of the time they were hitting meanless hexs and I never seen them on the front line.

[Julin Eurthyr]

You know, all this Alliance / Coalition stuff is fast surpassing the level of Hatred I put up with as a Red Sox fan in the Sox / Yankees rivalry.

Too bad this isn't a professional league, at least then we can force trades of highly disgruntled players...

On the other subject in this mess, KCW, I'll come forth with my involvement.  Hexx was, at the time, rubberstamping any decisions that I made, so anything that came out of Kinshaya was strictly my decision...

1.  Upon my selection as house leader, my initial draft order called for me to draft KBF aces first, then "generic aces", followed by the rest of the KBF, closing with my selections from the remainder of the pilot list.  This was decided because there was to be no fleet drafting at all, a process I volunteered to help bring about, if desired.

2.  When I was asked to help unite as much KBF as possible, I agreed, as the initial terms of the agreement looked proper (while I was losing the KBF, I believed that I would get enough "generic aces" to make up for it.)  and I was of a like mind to let the KBF get their wishes to fly as a fleet.  I amended the draft order to put all KBF pilots first, then the aces etc...  To this point, I had not discussed draft methodology etc. with anyone else outside of Hexx, who was still rubberstamping away.

3.  Upon receipt of the draft results, I was shocked to say the least.  Consider this post House Kinshaya's permission to release the initial draft results, I will not do so (if I even kept them cause I put this behind me) without permission of the remaining house leaders.

4.  I proceeded to begin preliminary talks on consumating the trade.  This took a while, which meant that there was at least 24-36 hours of trade talks where any "aggrieved houses" could complain.  I recall sitting on the completed deal for a little while, so there was at least 48 hours from draft release till I announced the finalized trade.  Continued silence at that point led me to believe the initial draft results were accepted by all.

5.  Within hours of the trade going off, the proverbial **** hit the fan.  I attempted to find a solution that would be agreeable to all, even revising the trade in such a manner to include all parties.  However, we could not find a solution that worked in a timeframe that could be considered reasonable to get a server launch, therefore the server was scrapped.

Kroma:  To this day, I don't understand about House Kinshaya's (and therefore my) "major involvement" in this grand conspiracy to rig the draft.  If you consider my accepting the offered deal and attempts to consumate the deal as the grand collusion, then please say so.  Otherwise, look to the draft results themselves to find the source of the conspiracy.  If I still have it, I'll send you a copy of the draft list I sent J'inn, to show you my draft order and allow you to compare what I got to what I asked for.  I did not send a single private message to anyone not involved in my house or the pre-draft trade until it was time to submit actual results, which, IIRC, were done by E-mail, not PM...

I'd rather this be washed under the bridge, letting the lessions learned become part of the D2's experiences so we can learn from our mistakes.  If we have to air it out publically to let a still festering sore become healed, then so be it.

[Kroma BaSyl]

If what you say is true Julin, then the other house leader lied to me, as I was told that they conspired with you on the secrete draft to coordinate your lists so as to make sure that your 2 teams aquired all KBF members out of the gate, thus allowing your teams to trade between yourselves inorder to insure the KBF end up on the same team.

Further more I was told first hand from the admin running the draft that the leader of the other house contacted him directly inquiring the best way to rig or manipulate the draft so as to assure this outcome.

For the record I believe that you Julin, thought you were doing little more than agreeing to trade excusively KBF to the other team and were more of a dup in this scheme than active participant in the seedier aspects of it.

The main lesson I learned from the experience was that certian individual in leadership positions, both Alliance and Coalition were wiling to do anything to circumvent the intent and letter of the admins rules and setup, if their personnal desires for how it should have been run were not followed.

So far I have heard the arguement from Crim that 2 teams arranging the draft ahead of time is equal somehow to POST-draft trading and that even if it was illegal it was justified because of something that occurred on another server. Thus I can only conclude that it is the position of certian KBF leaders and members that 2 wrongs make a right.

[FPF-DieHard]

This is un-resolvable.  Just accept it.  Too many morons will never forget about issues they had with people who don't even play the game anymore.

[Capt Jeff]

WS,

when the SSCF was a large group, like they were for IDSL, they often were on their own voice comms.   This was their way no matter if they flew Fed or Klingon.

It was the mere FACT that they chose to fly against the federation and with the Klingons that should of been appreciated, not what comms they used as being on seperate voice comms was the norm for them.

I'm just stating a fact they chose not to interact whit the coallition.

They never chose to interact much with the Fed and alliance when they flew Fed.   There's no difference.   The point is that they offered the olive branch by playing Klingon, but because of other people not knowing how they handled their voice comm affairs, their gesture of good will went un-appreciated.

[WarSears]

WS,

when the SSCF was a large group, like they were for IDSL, they often were on their own voice comms.   This was their way no matter if they flew Fed or Klingon.

It was the mere FACT that they chose to fly against the federation and with the Klingons that should of been appreciated, not what comms they used as being on seperate voice comms was the norm for them.

I'm just stating a fact they chose not to interact whit the coallition.

They never chose to interact much with the Fed and alliance when they flew Fed.   There's no difference.   The point is that they offered the olive branch by playing Klingon, but because of other people not knowing how they handled their voice comm affairs, their gesture of good will went un-appreciated.

I guess it wasn't when one of them forfits his way up the map to make sure the Fed Mirak treaty doesn't get broken.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'm just stating a fact they chose not to interact whit the coallition. About them flying against the Feds most of the time they were hitting meanless hexs and I never seen them on the front line.

Justfor the record I saw more SSCF on the front lines than any other group during IDSL, they were there and in numbers.  The only pilot I saw more than some of their members was Maverick.  It seems likely that they spent much of their time on the Kzinti/Hydran front thus anyone on the Federation/Gorn front might not have seen them as much.

[FPF-DieHard]

WS,

when the SSCF was a large group, like they were for IDSL, they often were on their own voice comms.   This was their way no matter if they flew Fed or Klingon.

It was the mere FACT that they chose to fly against the federation and with the Klingons that should of been appreciated, not what comms they used as being on seperate voice comms was the norm for them.

I'm just stating a fact they chose not to interact whit the coallition.

They never chose to interact much with the Fed and alliance when they flew Fed.   There's no difference.   The point is that they offered the olive branch by playing Klingon, but because of other people not knowing how they handled their voice comm affairs, their gesture of good will went un-appreciated.

I guess it wasn't when one of them forfits his way up the map to make sure the Fed Mirak treaty doesn't get broken.

Dude, even if they poured sugar in your gas tank and raped you dog, why does it matter?  They don't play anymore

[Kroma BaSyl]

WS,

when the SSCF was a large group, like they were for IDSL, they often were on their own voice comms.   This was their way no matter if they flew Fed or Klingon.

It was the mere FACT that they chose to fly against the federation and with the Klingons that should of been appreciated, not what comms they used as being on seperate voice comms was the norm for them.

I'm just stating a fact they chose not to interact whit the coallition.

They never chose to interact much with the Fed and alliance when they flew Fed.   There's no difference.   The point is that they offered the olive branch by playing Klingon, but because of other people not knowing how they handled their voice comm affairs, their gesture of good will went un-appreciated.

I guess it wasn't when one of them forfits his way up the map to make sure the Fed Mirak treaty doesn't get broken.

Dude, even if they poured sugar in your gas tank and raped you dog, why does it matter?  They don't play anymore

Because it helps to full the anomosity towards the "evil" Feds. It also helps to rationalise and justify continued poor behavior. A tit-for-tat arguement, unfortunatley directed at the wrong people.

The Alliance players that have shown up on the most recent servers had nothing to do with it, and shouldn't have been treated so shabably for trying to give at least a little good game, but it is easier to act unsportsman like if you villify your target. It isn't really necessary for the actual target to have actually done you a wrong for this type of rationalization to be effective and make the perpatrators feel their actions are justified though.

[WarSears]

WS,

when the SSCF was a large group, like they were for IDSL, they often were on their own voice comms.   This was their way no matter if they flew Fed or Klingon.

It was the mere FACT that they chose to fly against the federation and with the Klingons that should of been appreciated, not what comms they used as being on seperate voice comms was the norm for them.

I'm just stating a fact they chose not to interact whit the coallition.

They never chose to interact much with the Fed and alliance when they flew Fed.   There's no difference.   The point is that they offered the olive branch by playing Klingon, but because of other people not knowing how they handled their voice comm affairs, their gesture of good will went un-appreciated.

I guess it wasn't when one of them forfits his way up the map to make sure the Fed Mirak treaty doesn't get broken.

Dude, even if they poured sugar in your gas tank and raped you dog, why does it matter?  They don't play anymore

Because it helps to full the anomosity towards the "evil" Feds. It also helps to rationalise and justify continued poor behavior. A tit-for-tat arguement, unfortunatley directed at the wrong people.

The Alliance players that have shown up on the most recent servers had nothing to do with it, and shouldn't have been treated so shabably for trying to give at least a little good game, but it is easier to act unsportsman like if you villify your target. It isn't really necessary for the actual target to have actually done you a wrong for this type of rationalization to be effective and make the perpatrators feel their actions are justified though.

I brought this up because you said that Hooch only wanted to bring the D2 community closer. I'm just showing that they had there chance and took a pass.

About vilifying the Feds thats got to be a joke I cant think of one Fed I dislike. I can tell you I dislike the way you try to bate people in, and I dislike some of the post about unsportsmanship dishonorable acts just because we had a plan to take the Feds out of GW5 and it worked betten than we thought.