Topic: Why I no longer play this game.....

[Kroma BaSyl]

You are correct in that point Kroma that none of the non heavy OOB severs have had the promotion or diligent attention to detail that would make for a major server in the recent past.  But is it any wonder that those who prefer a more casual dyna environment are also the ones who are less technically oriented while those who prefer lots of little details tend to be those with the computer expertise?  I think the personality type of the various players might have something to do with it, with the player not lacking in a willingness but rather in an ableness. 

That is also the type of individual drawn to arcane statistical games like SFB, which is why you see such servers from the last remaining die hards.   However, that ain't their problem or responsibility. They are responsible only for creating servers for their own enjoyment.

Claiming to not be able to run a server for lack of technical expertise is funny though, considering that Jinn has done it. <snicker>

I also don't completely buy the fact that only OOB servers of late is due to tech people preferring them over non-tech people and tech people being the only ones able. There are several tech folks that have directly stated their distain for OOB, yet no alternative servers have been forthcoming.

My whole point was this (as I agree that a non-OOB server would be fun, and we could use more of all types of servers):

1) OOB servers didn't drive people away that prefer non-OOB. Lack of non-OOB servers did. There is a sutle difference here. One implies that admins of OOB servers are responsible for the decline of players, the other blames no one.

2) It is not necessarily the responsibility of those that prefer OOB servers to cater to those that don't just because they have proven capable of running a server.  As you can see it is a pet peeve of mine when people can't take responsibility for their own delimas, and insist it is someone else fault, just because they followed their own course.

Kroma,

PS, would be happy to help you in any server creation, with tech or web site creation. The map editor is really easy to use too. There are a few things I believe you need to know though, like having allied races and such, but I am sure Jinn can give you the list of don't do's as I think he has tried them all. <snicker>

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Thanks for your kind offer Kroma, I may very well take you up on it.

A few comments:

However, that ain't their problem or responsibility. They are responsible only for creating servers for their own enjoyment.

I think more player makes more fun first and foremost, therefore an admin can't be too sensitive to comments of players with different views if he wants bigger turnout.  Yeah the complaints may be off base and/or undeserved but when you don the admin role you just have to suck it up if you want to keep people involved despite wanting to lash out at times.  You have my sympathies here.

Claiming to not be able to run a server for lack of technical expertise is funny though, considering that Jinn has done it. <snicker>

Are you telling me that J'inn actually does any of the work on "his" servers?  I thought Die Hard was doing it all?

<Snicker>




Now as for these people:

There are several tech folks that have directly stated their distain for OOB, yet no alternative servers have been forthcoming.

Please PM me and lets brainstorm whoever you may be.  Kroma if you have any names please pass em on to me.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I wasn't too worried about the phone bill.   I've found it rather cheap if I just have the person call me.  Free in fact.  I love how that works.

Yeah the phone thingy might work after all, just remembered something called the collect call......

<Snicker>

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Hey J'inn
Rather than have you do the map for mirror mirror if you just post your
home and cell numbers here (I don't know when Ill be able to call) I'll give you a shout and you can tell me how
to do it as well..

Woot!  yes just talk to Hexx and I'll get him to do any maps I need, no work and a natural scapegoat who could ask for more!   

[kbf-jd]

And about nobody playing them,  Primetime Sunday night, 18 people on GW5, compaired to a year ago, hardly anyone on GW5.  Please don't take that as a knock on the server, it's just a fact.  And beleave you me, I'm not too happy about it either.  Nothing would make me happier than to see 30+ on a server, any server...

If we were running PP farming servers like you suggest the number of plyers would be no greater. I have no desire to waste hours upon hours fighting AI to get to by a bigger ship.

I am a bit suprised that Krueg makes you beg for ships though, Hexx I could see, but not Krueg.

Well, if you had bothered to read my idea above, you would know I was not just wanting to run a PVP farming server.  Some OOB and rules are needed.

And yes, it someone kills your Heavy Cruser, you should take a hit in the wallet and you might need to earn the right(PP) to buy another one...

The way things are going, the people who get assigned restricted ships can just meet up on Gamespy and duke it out....  Winner take all.  Or best 3 out of 5.

And while you are at it, can you name the last server you flew on where you did not have a restricted ship?

That's not a slap, but you have a different point of view.  That's cool....

jd

[Kroma BaSyl]

Well, if you had bothered to read my idea above, you would know I was not just wanting to run a PVP farming server.  Some OOB and rules are needed.

I read your post and the reason I ain't interested in your idea isn't because I thought you wanted no OOB, but because PP farming doesn't appeal to me. I fly Gorn and farming PP in early or mid is work, not fun.

And while you are at it, can you name the last server you flew on where you did not have a restricted ship?

GW2. The first OOB ship I ever flew was on GW3, I flew the Kzin BCH for a night. Flew a specialty ship F-CF on GW4 and eventually a BCV.

That's not a slap, but you have a different point of view.  That's cool....

Not sure why this should be taken as a slap. I didn't sleep with anyone to get the opportunity to fly them, I didn't beg or degrade myself either. I ASKED, and they gave it to me. The docks were overflowing with them too. Not sure how it works in the Coalition camp, but in the alliance all I had to do was ask. This is the first server where I have anything to do with the assigning, and the same conditions remain. Just ask, no need to be so fearful of rejection.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I think more player makes more fun first and foremost, therefore an admin can't be too sensitive to comments of players with different views if he wants bigger turnout.  Yeah the complaints may be off base and/or undeserved but when you don the admin role you just have to suck it up if you want to keep people involved despite wanting to lash out at times.  You have my sympathies here.

Actually the admins don't have to do anything they don't want to. If players can't express their desires without degrading the efforts of others then they aren't worth the effort, and aren't really people I want to play with anyway. More is not always better.

You seem to be still under the impression that I have an issue with different views on server setup, I don't, I like them all, and think we need a less restrictive server again. But as an example a better way to title such a thread as this might have been to say "What I would like to see in the D2 again..." instead of disparaging those that have differing ideas of what is fun and the gumption to see them to fruition. Their is a positive way to express your ideas for a server, that doesn't involve degrading the efforts of others or blaming them for your lack of fun.  People just can't take responsibility for themselves anymore and always expect others to do it for them.

Basically with the lack of server variety it is the admins not the few whiners you should be coddling.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I said the admins had my sympathies, what do I have to do come tuck you in to make you feel better?   


Well this KAT is smart enough to stay away from your bed, persons have gone missing for days there only to return limping and strangely silent about the whole affair   

I just happen to sympathize with both sides of the issue not feeling that either is wrong.  No reason that players can't express their views as they please, nor that admins can't do their settings as they please.  If the players should whine about the server settings a bit so be it, and if the admins should whine about being underappreciated a bit so be it.  I agree that the tone could use some improvement, and I think that applies to both sides, likely more could get discussed that way rather than spending so much time dealing with peoples hurt feelings and their masturbation of their bruised egos. 

[Kroma BaSyl]

I just happen to sympathize with both sides of the issue not feeling that either is wrong. 

You think that disparaging someone and expressing your desires from the premise of negativity isn't wrong? Or do you still not understand what I am actually on about?

No reason that players can't express their views as they please, nor that admins can't do their settings as they please.  If the players should whine about the server settings a bit so be it,  and if the admins should whine about being underappreciated a bit so be it.

Let me explain it to you one more time. It isn't an issue with differing views or the expression of them. It is an issue with how they are expressed. " If the players should whine about the server settings a bit so be it,," what it "be" is no servers at all to to play on as the few admins left and "able"will leave, and then there will be no servers.

I agree that the tone could use some improvement, and I think that applies to both sides, likely more could get discussed that way rather than spending so much time dealing with peoples hurt feelings and their masturbation of their bruised egos. 

You are hopelessly clueless Chuut. It ain't about anyones ego being bruised. It isme explaining to you how you as a player you can more effectively get you ideas across and influence an admin to incorporate your ideas. You take the position that the admins owe something to the players and I take the reverse position. Because as you have stated they are the ones "able" to run servers. You need to learn that there is a difference between not showing appreciation (which this isn't about) and using negativity and derision to express your point when attempting to influence someone to your position.

[Hexx]

Getting a ship from the coallition is fairly easy as well.. all you have to do is write a 500 word essay on why I'm the best.

Anyways somethings mentioned above I agree with, some I don't.

The idea of "If I fly and earn the PP I should be able to buy it" is fine , but some people simply don't have the
time or ability to be able to afford hugely expensive ships. Should they be excluded due to their limited playing times?
I remember some of the first servers I logged into, players who had been on for a week were flying around in Multi-CVA /DN fleets.
Maybe people have forgotten how many new players were turned off in those days because the first "real" ships you could afford (CA's around 9k)
weren't even remotely competitive, let alone the FF you started out in
Also- (although perhaps I'm wrong) "allowed to buy whatever ship I want" inevitably turns into "allowed to buy whatever I want" and again we have 3 droneboat fleets running around, with their users claiming that "three Lyran ships (for example) are just as easy to use"

Also - and I might be wrong on this- but alot of people we have left seem to like to have the ability to "achieve" something in PVP
Stalking and killing a BCH (or another "valuable" ship loses a bit of it's luster when the pilot simply goes out and buys another one next build cycle.

In any event I'd ask everyone (I'll beg later) to try Mirror Mirror. While it will have some restrictions I *think* regular (non BCF/BCV) BCH's will be unrestricted.
There will be multi DD (or FF if DD's are too powerful) fleets available to fly. There will be areas of the map that only CL's can go.
There will be PVP VP's- but they will be based on the players, not the ships, so there's no need to restrict certain ships to "elite" players.
In fact the DN's available will likely be simple strategic assets as they will not gain VP points for killing anything other than DN's.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I merely take the position with the "so be it" remarks that let people post what they will, but it doesn't mean that you have to listen to them if you don't like the tone.  Perhaps you didn't get my meaning, hope that clarifies it.  It was also a suggestion that both players and admins use "the golden rule" so that if they wanted a certain type of comment that they keep the tone of their own comments on the same level of what they wished to recieve not on the level of those whos comments they didn't care for.




So I'll call you a beautiful chunk of Gorniness rather than "Clueless"  


Slow day at work Kroma?   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Getting a ship from the coallition is fairly easy as well.. all you have to do is write a 500 word essay on why I'm the best.

Anyways somethings mentioned above I agree with, some I don't.

The idea of "If I fly and earn the PP I should be able to buy it" is fine , but some people simply don't have the
time or ability to be able to afford hugely expensive ships. Should they be excluded due to their limited playing times?
I remember some of the first servers I logged into, players who had been on for a week were flying around in Multi-CVA /DN fleets.
Maybe people have forgotten how many new players were turned off in those days because the first "real" ships you could afford (CA's around 9k)
weren't even remotely competitive, let alone the FF you started out in
Also- (although perhaps I'm wrong) "allowed to buy whatever ship I want" inevitably turns into "allowed to buy whatever I want" and again we have 3 droneboat fleets running around, with their users claiming that "three Lyran ships (for example) are just as easy to use"

Also - and I might be wrong on this- but alot of people we have left seem to like to have the ability to "achieve" something in PVP
Stalking and killing a BCH (or another "valuable" ship loses a bit of it's luster when the pilot simply goes out and buys another one next build cycle.

In any event I'd ask everyone (I'll beg later) to try Mirror Mirror. While it will have some restrictions I *think* regular (non BCF/BCV) BCH's will be unrestricted.
There will be multi DD (or FF if DD's are too powerful) fleets available to fly. There will be areas of the map that only CL's can go.
There will be PVP VP's- but they will be based on the players, not the ships, so there's no need to restrict certain ships to "elite" players.
In fact the DN's available will likely be simple strategic assets as they will not gain VP points for killing anything other than DN's.

Sounds good Hexx, with both sides having the same shiplist there will be little need of restrictions and keeping the DNs and BCVs restricted still makes for some degree of necessitating the use of your strategic reasources without creating a glut of such ships.  The limitations at the top of the line will also likely improve the defensibility of the full starbases to a degree. 

P.S.  you asking is quite nice, although uneccessary begging definately not needed.......no need to lower yourself

<Snicker>

[Kroma BaSyl]

I merely take the position with the "so be it" remarks that let people post what they will, but it doesn't mean that you have to listen to them if you don't like the tone.  Perhaps you didn't get my meaning, hope that clarifies it.  It was also a suggestion that both players and admins use "the golden rule" so that if they wanted a certain type of comment that they keep the tone of their own comments on the same level of what they wished to recieve not on the level of those whos comments they didn't care for.

You still don't get it. I don't care that they bitch, it doesn't bother me, I am not offended, nor do I need my ego stroked. I am trying to explain to you that if you or they want to actually have you ideas taken seriously by those "able" to run servers you would be doing yourselves a favor by be constructive vs destructive. You hit it on the nose, admins don't have to listen to the whining, and what I am trying to get through your head is that they probably won't. Thus by being negative in the expression of your desires for a better D2 you will only be allienating the people you wish to influence.

Here is an example of effectively influencing the admins. Back in the day when unrestricted servers were the rage, and whining of cheese was rambant, it wasn't the whining that lead to the OOB solution. It was a completely positive post my Corbo with an alternative solution (i.e. the original BP concept). He made the post and expression of his idea for addressing ithe issue de jour without having to complain or deride anything that came before. He simply stated an alternative, which partly do to his positive tone was read and listened to seriously, and then adopted. When you came and lay accusation about such and such server driving player off or start with a list of what you hate about a particular setup, you immediately cause those you most want to listen to you to tune you out.

You Chuut have misinterpreted my attempt to teach you how to better influence folks to your position as wanting the ego's of the admins stroked, while at the same time asserting that the admins should be bowing to the players that can't express their ideas positively.  I am saying neither, I am simply trying to get you and others to understand that if you really want to see a change and have your ideas taken seriously there is a better more effective means of doing it, that doesn't require ass kissing or coddling anyones ego's.  If an idea is a good one it is much more likely to be listened to if you don't first pissoff the very people you want and need to communicate it to. If you as a player can't communicate your desires for a different or better D2 in this fashion and/or aren't capible or willing to run your own server, then the demise of a D2 that you enjoy is no ones fault but your own. Thus my position of personal responsibility for your personal position/condition.

You seem to be of the somewhat stereotypical "liberal" position that it is someone elses fault for your condition. I am of the position that one must take responsibility for ones own condition, and am suggesting a more productive way for players to do that without having to learn how to run a server on their own.

You can catch more flys with honey, as they say.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You still don't get it. I don't care that they bitch, it doesn't bother me, I am not offended, nor do I need my ego stroked.

glad to hear it

I am trying to explain to you that if you or they want to actually have you ideas taken seriously by those "able" to run servers you would be doing yourselves a favor by be constructive vs destructive. You hit it on the nose, admins don't have to listen to the whining, and what I am trying to get through your head is that they probably won't. Thus by being negative in the expression of your desires for a better D2 you will only be allienating the people you wish to influence.

Always held that view although at times I likely lost myself in frustration, as is human nature.

You Chuut have misinterpreted my attempt to teach you how to better influence folks to your position as wanting the ego's of the admins stroked, while at the same time asserting that the admins should be bowing to the players that can't express their ideas positively.  I am saying neither

I know what you are on about Kroma, just pointing out that admin belittling of player comments is the same thing as uncunstructive player comments to admins.  I don't think either has to listen to the other but it would be nice if we all tried to work together in a 'golden rule' fashion.  You seem to somehow get the impression that I am siding with player complaints, I am not.  I am siding against whining and negative attitudes of both the players and the admins.  When I say admins should just ignore those remarks , I can't understand how you can take this as "bowing to the players that can't express their views positively".  I'll restate my view bluntly for clarity:

If an admin finds a player tone about an issue on a server objectionable, he should tell  HIMSELF  F*&% him, and ignore the post,  If a player finds an admins tones about an issue on a server he should tell  HIMSELF  F*&% him.

I am simply trying to get you and others to understand that if you really want to see a change and have your ideas taken seriously there is a better more effective means of doing it, that doesn't require ass kissing or coddling anyones ego's.  If an idea is a good one it is much more likely to be listened to if you don't first pissoff the very people you want and need to communicate it to. If you as a player can't communicate your desires for a different or better D2 in this fashion and/or aren't capible or willing to run your own server, then the demise of a D2 that you enjoy is no ones fault but your own. Thus my position of personal responsibility for your personal position/condition.

Don't disagree with this, never have. 

You seem to be of the somewhat stereotypical "liberal" position that it is someone elses fault for your condition. I am of the position that one must take responsibility for ones own condition, and am suggesting a more productive way for players to do that without having to learn how to run a server on their own.

You misuderstand me then, as my position is that it is a group undertaking with both admins and players needing to take joint responsibility if a vibrant dynaverse is to be maintained.  Its a two way street if you want to maintain the current level of participation.  If you don't care about that level then do as thou wilt, and I will do likewise.   

I don't think its anyone's "fault", as "fault" implies guilt, I think it is a likely consequence of the community reaching a point where interests have differed as to what is desired. 

At this point players will likely stay as long as their style of play is entertained and leave for another game when it isn't.  And admins will likely continue to put up servers until a minimum critical mass is reached and they feel it is not worth the effort.

You can catch more flys with honey, as they say.

Funny it seems to me that the flies tend to gather mostly around the cow pastures   

[Kroma BaSyl]

I know what you are on about Kroma, just pointing out that admin belittling of player comments is the same thing as uncunstructive player comments to admins.

I the real world (not that I'm-OK-Your-OK utopia you envision) they are not the same. All it takes is one vocal negative player to drive off or pissoff the few remaining admins, and then everyone loses. The truth is the admins that are "able" do have the power to run servers, and we players for the most part do not. In the real world we do owe them a certian amount of respect and courtesy, if we want to continue to be the beneficiaries of their services.

  You seem to somehow get the impression that I am siding with player complaints

No I am saying you are dismissive of player attitudes and equate their weight in light of the poor and negative delivery with defesiveness on the part of those that volunteer their time to work for the communittee. I give admins and players that can express themselves positively more weight, and suggest that others should too.

I don't think its anyone's "fault", as "fault" implies guilt, I think it is a likely consequence of the community reaching a point where interests have differed as to what is desired. 

Ah ha!!!! You get it!!!!! That is what I have been trying to tell you. I have NEVER seen an admin tell the players it is there fault for not playing, however, I have seen players tell the admins and communittee at large that either directly or indirectly the demise of the D2 numbers or their own interest in the game was due to the setups of the few admins still running servers, without offering anything constructive in return. Thus my position that the negative approah and apathy of players is more detremental to the D2 at large than admins occasional defensiveness to such slaps from ingrates. Less is sometimes more.

[el-Karnak]

the reason I would never and I mean NEVER play it is because it is pay to play and I cant see doing that and wont  do that as I wont have a disk in my hand after I am done or for some reason I miss a couple payments all that I have put into the game is GONE like I was never there and I have nothing so show for the cash I put out.

Hmm, looks like the standard argument one gives out just before they go for a pay-per-play game.   Pay-per-games are worth it if you have these gamer characteristics, IMO:

• Dedicated to one game on a long-term basis
• Able to put in a consistent set of playing time on a weekly basis
• Look forward to a constant cycle of new game publishes that, depending on your point of view, improve or change the game

Instead of always have to beg for patches for a non-monthly subscription game, you can always looks forward to your voice being heard, not necessarily listened to, by the developers on the MMORG game's forums regarding future game improvements.  That's pretty good value for your money if you like the constant improvements.  MMORG games like SWG can look a lot different a year after initial release.  If you don't like the improvements then you just cancel your account.

In a nutshell, the pay-per-play game's monthly subscriptions are helping to pay developers to actually go in and change the game's code with all the standard supporting legal conditionsregarding game vendor and game player relationships in place.

Not nessarily looking for "unrestricted"  but there was the idea some time ago that you have 2 different ships in the list like:

F-sBCG   cost 15000pp  This is a restricted ship that can be purchased via OOB only
F-BCG    cost  300000pp  Anyone that earns the PP can buy it

Yeah!! I've been arguing for this kind of system since SS2.  I think J'inn is actually moving in that direction with AOTK2.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I the real world (not that I'm-OK-Your-OK utopia you envision) they are not the same. All it takes is one vocal negative player to drive off or pissoff the few remaining admins, and then everyone loses. The truth is the admins that are "able" do have the power to run servers, and we players for the most part do not. In the real world we do owe them a certian amount of respect and courtesy, if we want to continue to be the beneficiaries of their services.

And the players put in their time with participation as well, I see it as egalitarian and that all deserve a certain amount of respect and courtesy if we are to be the benefactories of their participation at any level.  

No I am saying you are dismissive of player attitudes and equate their weight in light of the poor and negative delivery with defesiveness on the part of those that volunteer their time to work for the communittee. I give admins and players that can express themselves positively more weight, and suggest that others should too.

Yes I do equate their weight, we are all human beings playing a game to have fun, we all do what we do for the sake of that fun.

Ah ha!!!! You get it!!!!! That is what I have been trying to tell you.

 

funny as I already knew it  

I have NEVER seen an admin tell the players it is there fault for not playing, however, I have seen players tell the admins and communittee at large that either directly or indirectly the demise of the D2 numbers or their own interest in the game was due to the setups of the few admins still running servers, without offering anything constructive in return. Thus my position that the negative approah and apathy of players is more detremental to the D2 at large than admins occasional defensiveness to such slaps from ingrates. Less is sometimes more.

And my position is that they are equal in that poor behavior is undesired by both.   Ranking behavior based on importance is not the way to go in my opinion, but holding everyone accountable to the same standards is.

EDIT:  Some how this part didn't get put in the first time 

I have NEVER seen an admin tell the players it is there fault for not playing

But you have seen Admins blame payers for their server problems, think GW 2, I don't think Dizzy was an admin on that one 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

the reason I would never and I mean NEVER play it is because it is pay to play and I cant see doing that and wont  do that as I wont have a disk in my hand after I am done or for some reason I miss a couple payments all that I have put into the game is GONE like I was never there and I have nothing so show for the cash I put out.

Hmm, looks like the standard argument one gives out just before they go for a pay-per-play game.   Pay-per-games are worth it if you have these gamer characteristics, IMO:

• Dedicated to one game on a long-term basis
• Able to put in a consistent set of playing time on a weekly basis
• Look forward to a constant cycle of new game publishes that, depending on your point of view, improve or change the game

Instead of always have to beg for patches for a non-monthly subscription game, you can always looks forward to your voice being heard, not necessarily listened to, by the developers on the MMORG game's forums regarding future game improvements.  That's pretty good value for your money if you like the constant improvements.  MMORG games like SWG can look a lot different a year after initial release.  If you don't like the improvements then you just cancel your account.

In a nutshell, the pay-per-play game's monthly subscriptions are helping to pay developers to actually go in and change the game's code with all the standard supporting legal conditionsregarding game vendor and game player relationships in place.

Not nessarily looking for "unrestricted"  but there was the idea some time ago that you have 2 different ships in the list like:

F-sBCG   cost 15000pp  This is a restricted ship that can be purchased via OOB only
F-BCG    cost  300000pp  Anyone that earns the PP can buy it

Yeah!! I've been arguing for this kind of system since SS2.  I think J'inn is actually moving in that direction with AOTK2.

Yup have to agree with you there Karnak.  Never thought I'd do a pay for play but I'm having a blast on City of Heroes.  It just keeps getting better even in the short time I've been doing it and more cool stuff is yet to come.  The fact that folkes can cancel and resubscribe seems to keep the developments coming at a good pace, and it seems like everytime I can think to make a suggestion I find out it is already in development.

Still there is nothing like the D2 when your having fun in one of your favorite campaigns

[FPF-DieHard]

AOTK2 will have no OOB.

I love OOB, but it shouldn't be on every server.  Having every server the same is like banging the same chick over and over again . . .

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

AOTK2 will have no OOB.

I love OOB, but it shouldn't be on every server.  Having every server the same is like banging the same chick over and over again . . .

Yup and if you think that the chick is ugly.......