Topic: Why I no longer play this game.....

[kbf-jd]

Ok,  I logged on to GW5 today and ran some missions.  It's a nice server, seems stable and I LOVE this game...

Before I go on, NOBODY take offence.  This is not a slap at anyone, just my feelings.....

When I logged on to GW5,  I was placed in a K7BR, It's a nice heavy cruser.  Worth 8000 pp.  I had 10,000 pp in the bank.  Wanting to fly TRUE Rom, I promptly purchased an SPJ(before even undocking for my first mission).  I went out and flew my first mission and promptly remembered:

1.  I had not played this game in a long time and was barely able to find the "Z" key.(I though Oh no, I'm J'inn)
2.  I had not played Rom in a while,  "Oh my god, the mission times, the horror....."
3.  Hay, I really like re-learning again....


Ok, but here's the problem.  The game is pointless:

1.  I already had the biggest ship I could buy without begging another player for one.  Again, not a slap at the RMs they are good guys, but it's the system....

2.  Everyone I could fight on the other side was already in a DN/Carrier.

3.  The guys in the DN/Carriers are not alone, and the thought of getting caught in the biggest thing I can buy by 2(or 3) guys, it not fun.

4.  If I get a wingman, the chances of a stable 4(or more) way in this game are not good.  I have a good connection, but the player left bug has never been squashed).

5.  Every AI I was fighting was in a ship I could not buy if I were on their side?  If the players cannot buy them why is that All I see as AI?

6.  I bet I killed about 10 copies of ships that were supposed to be one of a kind.....


So, what do I miss?

1.  I actually miss starting in a frig and having to WORK my way into a bigger ship.  I thought we were actually attempting to simulate OOB?  Where are the new guys in the frigs?  Why give everyone a heavy and the PP to replace it?

2.  I miss killing someone or being killed and it meaning something.  The only ships that have meaning are the VC ships.

3.  Learning how to earn PP.

4.  Special ships.  Capturing ships with a d6g.  It was hard work downing shields with 7 p-2, but worth it if you could pull it off...

5.  The stock shiplist.  Not stock ships, but how many copies of the HDWC1000 are there anyway...(no offence to OP+, it's not a bad list, just too many ships that were created when ADB went off the chain...)


Well that's my rant.  I posted the same rant several months ago, so excuse the repetitiveness.

I think I'll log back in now, see if soem old friends are on VT.

I do have a dream of an EVE type server running SFB/C types of ships....  drool....

And if you want, look me up on Eve sometime...

jd

[Green]

I don't completely agree w/ your "remembered" or "pointless" points you listed ... but I do agree with your "miss" points JD.  Wouldn't mind seeing one of those also. 

Hope to see you on.

(PS - Eve is the devil's work )

[KBFLordKrueg]

All I can say JD;


1.  I already had the biggest ship I could buy without begging another player for one.  Again, not a slap at the RMs they are good guys, but it's the system....

Actually, an NHK, RGK are probably the biggest, and since ships transfers are immediate, it's easy to rotate the better ships to keep them flying, both sides have been doing it all server.


2.  Everyone I could fight on the other side was already in a DN/Carrier.

I know it appears that way, since a lot of our guys are still in line ships since we have way more pilots than capitol ships. It looks like all of the enemy has bigger ships because they have the opposite problem. 

3.  The guys in the DN/Carriers are not alone, and the thought of getting caught in the biggest thing I can buy by 2(or 3) guys, it
not fun.

Then make sure to wing with one of our Big Boys. I'm sure any of them would be glad to have a quality wingman like yourself. 

4.  If I get a wingman, the chances of a stable 4(or more) way in this game are not good.  I have a good connection, but the player left bug has never been squashed).

Yes, that problem still exist, always will until everyone in the world is on broadband, maybe even then. But, many players have had successful 2v2 and 2v3 matches...a lot of them actually. Find someone with a known good connection to wing with. And most pilots are willing to admit if they have a slower connection and might have problems in larger matches. Still good ones to wing with to run some AI missions to get the feel of your ship and take territory, something that's essential for a land-grab type server like GW5. Not everyone likes to do it, but it's gotta be done.

5.  Every AI I was fighting was in a ship I could not buy if I were on their side?  If the players cannot buy them why is that All I see as AI?

Actually, the Coalition has noticed a marked decrease in the size of the Fed AI. We started out getting CVA, DN and such almost every mission. Lately, it's one or 2 CAs and CLs with mostly just DDs, HDWs and such.

6.  I bet I killed about 10 copies of ships that were supposed to be one of a kind.....

Another issue that will probably always occur if you judge SFC OP by SFB "standards". But, without those ships being available, the live players couldn't buy them in the shipyards, either.


It's not as bad as it may seem, JD. Get on VT with us, get a wing and we'll have some fun! 

[KAT J'inn]

JD . . .  AoTK may be to your liking then.

Every server is different.  No one likes them all.

[Hexx]

Or Mirror Mirror
Which will be based on a PVP VP system.-So every single kill counts
DN's will be 1/side online, same with BCV's
Plus ya get to kill Feds EVERY MISSION! - be they friendly or unfriendly.

What could be better?

Soon as J'inn gets off his duf and does me a map we'll be all set.

[kbf-jd]

I don't completely agree w/ your "remembered" or "pointless" points you listed ... but I do agree with your "miss" points JD.  Wouldn't mind seeing one of those also. 

Hope to see you on.

(PS - Eve is the devil's work )

Well, I can see where you might disagree with the Pointless posts...  those are subjective.  The remembered part was me trying to remember the game(except for the J'inn crack;) )

As for Eve Crack being the devils work,  if so, he did a good job! 

The good thing about EVE is that you can do whatever you want/fly whatever you want.  If you cannot find it, you can build it.

One of my first problems today was wanting to fly in 3D.

A startrek EVE would be GREAT!!!

jd

[kbf-jd]

JD . . .  AoTK may be to your liking then.

Every server is different.  No one likes them all.

Cool, and again, I was not trying to take a stab at you.

And don't think I'm not greatful for the work you have done on the GW servers, we need more like you not less.  But the restrictions/rules have run many people I know off the game.  Myself included.  It's time to think about going the other way...

Again, thanks for the hard work....

jd

[Kroma BaSyl]

JD . . .  AoTK may be to your liking then.

Every server is different.  No one likes them all.

Cool, and again, I was not trying to take a stab at you.

And don't think I'm not greatful for the work you have done on the GW servers, we need more like you not less.  But the restrictions/rules have run many people I know off the game.  Myself included.  It's time to think about going the other way...

Again, thanks for the hard work....

jd

There are unrestricted servers up all the time, the only problem is no one flys on them.  AOTK II will have a lot less restriction and should be to your liking.

[FPF-DieHard]

[

A startrek EVE would be GREAT!!!

jd

Yup, it would

[kbf-jd]

All I can say JD;


1.  I already had the biggest ship I could buy without begging another player for one.  Again, not a slap at the RMs they are good guys, but it's the system....

Actually, an NHK, RGK are probably the biggest, and since ships transfers are immediate, it's easy to rotate the better ships to keep them flying, both sides have been doing it all server.

Arrrgggg.......  I did not see a NHK or RGK in the yard,  But I could buy at least 3 of them after a few hours playing time....

And MY point is I don't want to have to ask ANYONE else to fly a ship.  The Point?  If it's in the yard and I have the cash, I should be able to buy it.  It's not like you guys are A$$ holes or anything, you are not.  It's the fact that you have to ask permission...  Forget that...

2.  Everyone I could fight on the other side was already in a DN/Carrier.

I know it appears that way, since a lot of our guys are still in line ships since we have way more pilots than capitol ships. It looks like all of the enemy has bigger ships because they have the opposite problem. 

I understand that.  But the effect is that unless you are one of the anointed few, PVP is right out...

And to get right to the point.  If I have to beg someone for a good ship, I ain't playing, I don't care how nice he is.  It just isn't gonna happen.  Again it isn't you or the other RMs, it's the idea that 's bad...

5.  Every AI I was fighting was in a ship I could not buy if I were on their side?  If the players cannot buy them why is that All I see as AI?

Actually, the Coalition has noticed a marked decrease in the size of the Fed AI. We started out getting CVA, DN and such almost every mission. Lately, it's one or 2 CAs and CLs with mostly just DDs, HDWs and such.

6.  I bet I killed about 10 copies of ships that were supposed to be one of a kind.....

Another issue that will probably always occur if you judge SFC OP by SFB "standards". But, without those ships being available, the live players couldn't buy them in the shipyards, either.

And you made my point.  In the later years the shiplist is so loaded with hdw12341234 & Cheeze that you cannot pull a mission without them...

And I'd rather run into a BC/DN or two than try to run and charge Torps at speed 31 being chased by a hord of PFs and 15+ pahser1s

It's not as bad as it may seem, JD. Get on VT with us, get a wing and we'll have some fun! 

was there and will likely be back sometime as time permits...

jd

[kbf-jd]

JD . . .  AoTK may be to your liking then.

Every server is different.  No one likes them all.

Cool, and again, I was not trying to take a stab at you.

And don't think I'm not greatful for the work you have done on the GW servers, we need more like you not less.  But the restrictions/rules have run many people I know off the game.  Myself included.  It's time to think about going the other way...

Again, thanks for the hard work....

jd

There are unrestricted servers up all the time, the only problem is no one flys on them.  AOTK II will have a lot less restriction and should be to your liking.

Not nessarily looking for "unrestricted"  but there was the idea some time ago that you have 2 different ships in the list like:

F-sBCG   cost 15000pp  This is a restricted ship that can be purchased via OOB only
F-BCG    cost  300000pp  Anyone that earns the PP can buy it

you hump out the missions, you earn the ship...

As for the unrestricted servers, right now they are mostly just throw them up and go types of deals...  so they don't have much draw power...

And about nobody playing them,  Primetime Sunday night, 18 people on GW5, compaired to a year ago, hardly anyone on GW5.  Please don't take that as a knock on the server, it's just a fact.  And beleave you me, I'm not too happy about it either.  Nothing would make me happier than to see 30+ on a server, any server...

jd

[Davey-E]

I do have a dream of an EVE type server running SFB/C types of ships....  drool....

Brother,
If you ever do this
I am in 100%, Thats personally my Biatch with EVE - eg: There is Just no History or Background to it, i just cant relate to it

I mean Caldari and Amarr fighting alongside against more Caldari and Amarr - Sorry i just don,t like,
Now everything else is great, the learning curve etc, i can handle

But the Orgasmic Dream of 3D space with all the ST Empires  -  oh My
Can you imagine going to war as the Kzinti (Caldari) against the invading Klingons (Minmater) near a Player built Kzin space station

Jeest, i hope we get this someday 

[deadmansix]

I do have a dream of an EVE type server running SFB/C types of ships....  drool....

Brother,
If you ever do this
I am in 100%, Thats personally my Biatch with EVE - eg: There is Just no History or Background to it, i just cant relate to it

I mean Caldari and Amarr fighting alongside against more Caldari and Amarr - Sorry i just don,t like,
Now everything else is great, the learning curve etc, i can handle

But the Orgasmic Dream of 3D space with all the ST Empires  -  oh My
Can you imagine going to war as the Kzinti (Caldari) against the invading Klingons (Minmater) near a Player built Kzin space station

Jeest, i hope we get this someday 

 Sounds fantastic, but the reason I would never and I mean NEVER play it is because it is pay to play and I cant see doing that and wont  do that as I wont have a disk in my hand after I am done or for some reason I miss a couple payments all that I have put into the game is GONE like I was never there and I have nothing so show for the cash I put out.

[Davey-E]

I do have a dream of an EVE type server running SFB/C types of ships....  drool....

Brother,
If you ever do this
I am in 100%, Thats personally my Biatch with EVE - eg: There is Just no History or Background to it, i just cant relate to it

I mean Caldari and Amarr fighting alongside against more Caldari and Amarr - Sorry i just don,t like,
Now everything else is great, the learning curve etc, i can handle

But the Orgasmic Dream of 3D space with all the ST Empires  -  oh My
Can you imagine going to war as the Kzinti (Caldari) against the invading Klingons (Minmater) near a Player built Kzin space station

Jeest, i hope we get this someday 

 Sounds fantastic, but the reason I would never and I mean NEVER play it is because it is pay to play and I cant see doing that and wont  do that as I wont have a disk in my hand after I am done or for some reason I miss a couple payments all that I have put into the game is GONE like I was never there and I have nothing so show for the cash I put out.

But don,t you understand Bro,
Thats the only way you can have an active server, It costs to do the kind of upgrades neccessary need in such a server as EVE
and of course they ain,t gonna do it for nothing,

I for one would certainly pay a modest amount to have the kind of intensisty that we have on something like the GW series,

It would,nt happen if you missed a couple of payments anyway ( i believe EVE's server keeps info for 3 months after you resign so you can return within that time and keep your skills etc)

Think of it DM6,
It would be like the VG / GW series / and roleplay all in one with diplomacy and every other aspect of real time space ecxtasy - (lol spelling)

My bets are such a game would be a massive hit

PS
Have you tried EVE DM ?

[Kroma BaSyl]

And about nobody playing them,  Primetime Sunday night, 18 people on GW5, compaired to a year ago, hardly anyone on GW5.  Please don't take that as a knock on the server, it's just a fact.  And beleave you me, I'm not too happy about it either.  Nothing would make me happier than to see 30+ on a server, any server...

If we were running PP farming servers like you suggest the number of plyers would be no greater. I have no desire to waste hours upon hours fighting AI to get to by a bigger ship.

I am a bit suprised that Krueg makes you beg for ships though, Hexx I could see, but not Krueg.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

If we were running PP farming servers like you suggest the number of plyers would be no greater.

If so then 18 online at once is the best you can likely hope for in the future, but perhaps AOTK II will put this to the test as it has yet to be tested seriously.

[Grim]

But don,t you understand Bro,
Thats the only way you can have an active server, It costs to do the kind of upgrades neccessary need in such a server as EVE
and of course they ain,t gonna do it for nothing,

I for one would certainly pay a modest amount to have the kind of intensisty that we have on something like the GW series,

It would,nt happen if you missed a couple of payments anyway ( i believe EVE's server keeps info for 3 months after you resign so you can return within that time and keep your skills etc)

Think of it DM6,
It would be like the VG / GW series / and roleplay all in one with diplomacy and every other aspect of real time space ecxtasy - (lol spelling)

Actually i believe they could run a server for free, having no monthly pay to play fee would encourage more players to play that game, more copies of the game would be sold, therefore generating the revenue needed for running servers. They do charge enough as it is for computer games so why pay more? Alternatively to generate revenue they could release more expansion packs say on a 6 month basis which will generate the cash needed.

You just have to look at Guild Wars were you will not have to pay a fee to play online, all you pay for is a copy of the game and that is it, plus say every six months they will release expansion packs that wont be required if you want to stick playing the original. They can generate enough money by selling hard copies of the game and expansions rather than selling copies plus an online fee.

[KAT J'inn]

JD . . .  AoTK may be to your liking then.

Every server is different.  No one likes them all.

Cool, and again, I was not trying to take a stab at you.

And don't think I'm not greatful for the work you have done on the GW servers, we need more like you not less.  But the restrictions/rules have run many people I know off the game.  Myself included.  It's time to think about going the other way...

Again, thanks for the hard work....

jd

No worries. I did not take it as critism.  I know OoB/SFB type servers are not to everyone's liking.  Frankly I'm sick of them right now myself.    I'm really looking forward to SS3 and AoTK2.

[Kroma BaSyl]

If we were running PP farming servers like you suggest the number of plyers would be no greater.

If so then 18 online at once is the best you can likely hope for in the future, but perhaps AOTK II will put this to the test as it has yet to be tested seriously.

18 was JDs number, I have seen as many as 30+ the first weekend. Blamming those that run servers with rule sets they like, while doing nothing about it yourself is the real issue. More servers of all types, without the big gaps between them is what would have kept more players around. I have seen several people using their rose colored glasses talking about past unrestricted servers, many of the same people that bitched then about all the cheese. OOB didn't just come out of the ether, and if non-restricted was the magic bullet that would have kept the player numbers from dropping over time then I am sure more admins would have run them. As it is I don't think anything can keep the game going forever, players will continue to leave as the game gets older. Some will claim because of to many restriction others to few.

[Kroma BaSyl]

  Frankly I'm sick of them right now myself.    I'm really looking forward to SS3 and AoTK2.

I actually agree with this sentiment. I am ready for a less restrictive server. That sets the stage and conditions for more DN/BCH carnage, and less cautious play. I understand and respect (Runulan barbs aside) players flying conservatively with limited team assets. It is in fact the smart thing to do. It actually took a couple of GW servers before both teams figured it out. Thus the game has evolved a bit to be flown to conservative IMO. I am ready for a change of pace, but that doesn't mean I am sworn off OOB completely either.

What bugs me is people saying one type or another is what "drove" players off. It is a free market and anyone can run whatever type of server they want. You have only yourselves to blame if there isn't one you like and you don't organize a team to run one you do like.

Kroma the Existentialist

[FPF-AJTK]

Grim;
      We do get patches all the time. In November we got a MASSIVE patch, like going from EAW to OP. Now its April and were about to get another that will completely change large sections of the game. We also constantly get playability/bug fix patches.

I personally have TWO accounts for Eve, at 14.95 each. Being able to play whenever I want, having a CTD is like a "Wow, that hasnt happened in a long time" and if they CTD costs you a ship, you can ask the GMs and depending on the situation they might give it back!

We constantly get new ships, new skills to operate the new ships, etc.

I know pay to play isnt for some. Its fine for me. I was always one of the ones that told Taldren Id gladly pay for a live server when Eric would bring it up.

Have fun!

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

If we were running PP farming servers like you suggest the number of plyers would be no greater.

If so then 18 online at once is the best you can likely hope for in the future, but perhaps AOTK II will put this to the test as it has yet to be tested seriously.

18 was JDs number, I have seen as many as 30+ the first weekend. Blamming those that run servers with rule sets they like, while doing nothing about it yourself is the real issue. More servers of all types, without the big gaps between them is what would have kept more players around. I have seen several people using their rose colored glasses talking about past unrestricted servers, many of the same people that bitched then about all the cheese. OOB didn't just come out of the ether, and if non-restricted was the magic bullet that would have kept the player numbers from dropping over time then I am sure more admins would have run them. As it is I don't think anything can keep the game going forever, players will continue to leave as the game gets older. Some will claim because of to many restriction others to few.

I don't think anyone was casting any blame at those who take their own time and effort into putting up a server of any kind.  Its only natural that they would follow their visions of doing so.  I think different players are looking for different things in the game.  Likely totally unrestricted servers have in the past driven off as many players as the more recent heavily restricted ones, as well as time taking its toll on an old game.

When servers were non restricted everytime it got old for some, just like with heavily restricted servers running one after the other are now.  Having a good mix may be the key to maintaining what numbers remain and hopefully bringing some back.  The willingness to play on servers that don't exactly suit you is alot easier if you think the next one might be more to your liking.  It also might make you more willing to participate so that those with the different vision from your own might participate in the server type that you like when it arrives.

[FPF-DieHard]

Um, why are we arguing?   I think everyone is agreeing that the next server should be a hell of a lot more open and the next J'inn/Kroma/DH production WILL be extremly open.

Again, why are we arguing?

[Hexx]

Um, why are we arguing?   I think everyone is agreeing that the next server should be a hell of a lot more open and the next J'inn/Kroma/DH production WILL be extremly open.

Again, why are we arguing?

I thought anything involving Kroma was pretty open already..

[Kroma BaSyl]

Um, why are we arguing?   I think everyone is agreeing that the next server should be a hell of a lot more open and the next J'inn/Kroma/DH production WILL be extremly open.

Again, why are we arguing?

I thought anything involving Kroma was pretty open already..

Much like Hexx's venting ship hulls. <snicker>

[Kroma BaSyl]

I don't think anyone was casting any blame at those who take their own time and effort into putting up a server of any kind.

When players come in and saying restricted servers are what is driving players out of the D2, and implying that this is why D2 numbers have dropped, then I have to disagree that they are blamming those that put the few servers up for the demise of the D2. The real reason that players that prefer open servers are being driven off isn't because someone else puts up a restricted server, it is becasue no one including the complainers have put up a non-restricted server. What bothers me isn't what they say but how they say it. I agree that some players have left or not played due to the only servers available of late being OOB and that not being their thing, but that isn't the same as their implication that OOB servers are causing the reduction in total player numbers in the D2. It is the lack of anyone else, including those that have left, running alternatives, and not the fault of the few OOB servers that there have been.  Most of the folks that are gripping about it have remained idol and simply cast stones relying on the few folks that spend their time creating and testing the only remaining servers. They have no one to blame but themselves for the lack of variety.

Its only natural that they would follow their visions of doing so.  I think different players are looking for different things in the game.  Likely totally unrestricted servers have in the past driven off as many players as the more recent heavily restricted ones, as well as time taking its toll on an old game.

When servers were non restricted everytime it got old for some, just like with heavily restricted servers running one after the other are now.  Having a good mix may be the key to maintaining what numbers remain and hopefully bringing some back.  The willingness to play on servers that don't exactly suit you is alot easier if you think the next one might be more to your liking.  It also might make you more willing to participate so that those with the different vision from your own might participate in the server type that you like when it arrives.

I pretty much agree with this and have played on unrestricted servers as avidly as OOB servers. The issue however, isn't my and others willingness to participate by playing on servers that aren't necessarily our preference, it is that fact that there has been no one else putting up these unrestricted servers to play on and folks expecting those that have put on the restricted servers to cater to them instead of doing it themselves. Those preferring unrestricted servers need to put up or shut up and wait until the few folks investing their energies feel like running a non-restricted server, which lucky for themm shouldn't be to long.

Now before you whiners start bitching about me slapping you around and complaining that not listening to the players concerns is bad form, I will repeat this. I like the idea of having an unrestricted server and agree with the input and apprieciate the feedback for it's informational value. I think we need an unrestricted server without PvP VCs and a limited DN/BCH system that actually incourages more pilots getting a chance to fly them and putting them at greater risk. It is time for a bit of capital ship carnage. What I disagree with is people implying the game is being ruined and players driven off because no one else had been willing to spend their efforts creating the type of server the complainers wish for. There is a right way and wrong way to give feedback, and for the record I think JDs post was the right way, but I have seen several others of late make the direct statement or implication that it is the OOB servers fault for driving away players, when it is really the lack of an alternative and initiative of the complainers themselves.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You are correct in that point Kroma that none of the non heavy OOB severs have had the promotion or diligent attention to detail that would make for a major server in the recent past.  But is it any wonder that those who prefer a more casual dyna environment are also the ones who are less technically oriented while those who prefer lots of little details tend to be those with the computer expertise?  I think the personality type of the various players might have something to do with it, with the player not lacking in a willingness but rather in an ableness. 

If any tech types want to hold my hand and walk me through how to do that stuff I'd be more than willing to learn, but be prepared for a certain amount of frustration as I would have to be taught the most basic aspects step by slow step.  I just know that I've seen a frustrated reply to some of my questions in the past because I didn't know some basic technical fact, and made to feel like I was a bother for asking.  Likely I just caught someone at the wrong time, but how many of those experiences does it take to make you stop asking?

As of now, I myself have no clue about how to do a server, yet I have definate ideas on what I like about various servers and what I dislike.  I am more than willing to devote what time and services I can to any server team, but there is no way that I could do a stable server on my own.  So if anyone wants any help with server promotion,map ideas, looking at the ships and fighters for the shiplist (although I don't know how to do the technical aspect of the list), VC and rules design, fleeting rules etc, just let me know and I'm yours.  But if you need to adjust computer settings, do mission scripting, use donor ships, move hardpoints on the list, etc, I'm not your guy.

It would be kinda cool if there was a guide written about how to do the different aspects of a server, that went through each process step by step so no one needed to be bothered.  This reasource could be added to and ammended as new aspects arose.

All that being said let me express my humblest apologies to anyone who has taken the time to put up a server of any kind if they felt that I have blammed them for anything regarding the decline in player numbers or other such criticisms, rather than express my opinions on the issue in a more constructive way.  I just preferred to express my views rather "than put up or shut up" as I lacked the skills to "put up" and didn't feel like "shutting up" and haven't yet chosen the third unspoken option of "walking away".  In no way did I mean to criticize your hard work, but likely it would at times come across as such due to frustration on my part, and for that I apologize.

[KAT J'inn]

Chuut:

It's really not that hard for a basic server.    Evil Dave made up a booklet that is on a website that covers a lot of the basics.   Someone will post a link I hope.

Using that will really get you started.

Feel free to call me about the server stuff anytime.

As for shiplists . . . . .

I'd suggest starting slow.  Make your first server with a stock list or <cough> steal a list from a server you liked.

As for Maps . . . .

They are easy.   I can walk anyone through one.

Mission scripts . . . .

Hey we are stuck with what we got for now. 



If I can do it, anyone can.  True, DH is doing most all the work now, but I basically taught it too myself for GW1.   Of course I pestered a lot of people.   Jeff is a great reasource as well as Dizzy.   Then there is always <shudder> Nail.

I hate computers.   I can't program.  Don't want to even.  But most fo this stuff requires basic common sense and an understanding that computers are crappy pieces of crapola that don't work right.

But then there is the time issue.   It does take a good deal of time.

The other big issue is the server issue.  You have to find a host.  That's a problem.

[FPF-DieHard]

The other big issue is the server issue.  You have to find a host.  That's a problem.

No it's not .. .   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Chuut:

It's really not that hard for a basic server.    Evil Dave made up a booklet that is on a website that covers a lot of the basics.   Someone will post a link I hope.

Using that will really get you started.

Feel free to call me about the server stuff anytime.

As for shiplists . . . . .

I'd suggest starting slow.  Make your first server with a stock list or <cough> steal a list from a server you liked.

As for Maps . . . .

They are easy.   I can walk anyone through one.

Mission scripts . . . .

Hey we are stuck with what we got for now. 



If I can do it, anyone can.  True, DH is doing most all the work now, but I basically taught it too myself for GW1.   Of course I pestered a lot of people.   Jeff is a great reasource as well as Dizzy.   Then there is always <shudder> Nail.

I hate computers.   I can't program.  Don't want to even.  But most fo this stuff requires basic common sense and an understanding that computers are crappy pieces of crapola that don't work right.

But then there is the time issue.   It does take a good deal of time.

The other big issue is the server issue.  You have to find a host.  That's a problem.

Ok, lets start with maps then....when can I reach you after midnight or on Thursday or Sunday?

[FPF-DieHard]

The other big issue is the server issue.  You have to find a host.  That's a problem.

No it's not .. .   

A hands off host?

Frey.   Just try not to blow up his network .  . .

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The other big issue is the server issue.  You have to find a host.  That's a problem.

No it's not .. .   

A hands off host?

Frey

cool

[KAT J'inn]

Best way to reach me is to call and make an appointment for a phone conference while we are both at a computer.    I know that sounds terribly anal . . . but my life is really that much of a pain in the butt for me.

I really do have to write it down on my calander or the vultures here at my office will schedule some BS at night like a dinner with a client or something OR  EVEN WORSE > > > >  SHOP REX ATTACK!!!

It would be easiest if I were sitting at my computer with the map editor open while on the phone with you.

Call Anytime and we can set aside a night to do this.

Seriously, I don't mind at all, I just want to make sure we set aside enough time in advance so we are not interrupted.   It'll take about 30 minutes to go over everything.



P.S.   I have to be out west starting tomorrow for 10 days.  My cell phone will work out there so go ahead and call, no problem.



P.P.S.   We'll discuss fees when you call.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Don't get me wrong DH, I'd love to have some of your insights on shiplist, balancing, etc, but I wouln't want to run anything with my name attached with someone else having the "dictortatorail powers" that you have told me you require.  If I have a "stupid" or "retarded" idea I don't mind feedback on it or blame, but I wouldn't want it changed out of my control.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Best way to reach me is to call and make an appointment for a phone conference while we are both at a computer.    I know that sounds terribly anal . . . but my life is really that much of a pain in the butt for me.

I really do have to write it down on my calander or the vultures here at my office will schedule some BS at night like a dinner with a client or something OR  EVEN WORSE > > > >  SHOP REX ATTACK!!!

It would be easiest if I were sitting at my computer with the map editor open while on the phone with you.

Call Anytime and we can set aside a night to do this.

Seriously, I don't mind at all, I just want to make sure we set aside enough time in advance so we are not interrupted.   It'll take about 30 minutes to go over everything.



P.S.   I have to be out west starting tomorrow for 10 days.  My cell phone will work out there so go ahead and call, no problem.



P.P.S.   We'll discuss fees when you call.

You realise how high the long distance bill would be?  I have to learn everything!

Just PM me when you got an open Thursday or Sunday slot and we can get on voice coms and do it.

[FPF-DieHard]

Don't get me wrong DH, I'd love to have some of your insights on shiplist, balancing, etc, but I wouln't want to run anything with my name attached with someone else having the "dictortatorail powers" that you have told me you require.  If I have a "stupid" or "retarded" idea I don't mind feedback on it or blame, but I wouldn't want it changed out of my control.

no offense taken.   I know I'm a pain to work with but it's the price you pay to have somebody else do 90% of the work 

[Hexx]

Hey J'inn
Rather than have you do the map for mirror mirror if you just post your
home and cell numbers here (I don't know when Ill be able to call) I'll give you a shout and you can tell me how
to do it as well..

[FPF-DieHard]

Hey J'inn
Rather than have you do the map for mirror mirror if you just post your
home and cell numbers here (I don't know when Ill be able to call) I'll give you a shout and you can tell me how
to do it as well..

1-900- U-Bastard 

[KAT J'inn]

Just PM me when you got an open Thursday or Sunday slot and we can get on voice coms and do it.

I wasn't too worried about the phone bill.   I've found it rather cheap if I just have the person call me.  Free in fact.  I love how that works.

Anywho,  voice comms is good also.


 

[KAT J'inn]

I know I'm a pain to work with

Gosh, I'm like a mosquito at a nudist colony here.  I don't know where to start.


Hmm just where do I start with this gem?

OW!!!  I got a headache just thinking about it.

<snicker>

Actually, yer a teddy bear DH.

Or a badger.

One or the other.   They're both cute and furry.

Besides, I've made a fortune off of the "Who Will Drive DH Over the Edge Tonight Pool"

BTW that reminds me.

762 you won last night. It was Balanger. Check is in the mail.   I think I'm going to have to lower the odds on Balanger to 1:1.  He's going to drive me to ruin otherwise.

[Kroma BaSyl]

You are correct in that point Kroma that none of the non heavy OOB severs have had the promotion or diligent attention to detail that would make for a major server in the recent past.  But is it any wonder that those who prefer a more casual dyna environment are also the ones who are less technically oriented while those who prefer lots of little details tend to be those with the computer expertise?  I think the personality type of the various players might have something to do with it, with the player not lacking in a willingness but rather in an ableness. 

That is also the type of individual drawn to arcane statistical games like SFB, which is why you see such servers from the last remaining die hards.   However, that ain't their problem or responsibility. They are responsible only for creating servers for their own enjoyment.

Claiming to not be able to run a server for lack of technical expertise is funny though, considering that Jinn has done it. <snicker>

I also don't completely buy the fact that only OOB servers of late is due to tech people preferring them over non-tech people and tech people being the only ones able. There are several tech folks that have directly stated their distain for OOB, yet no alternative servers have been forthcoming.

My whole point was this (as I agree that a non-OOB server would be fun, and we could use more of all types of servers):

1) OOB servers didn't drive people away that prefer non-OOB. Lack of non-OOB servers did. There is a sutle difference here. One implies that admins of OOB servers are responsible for the decline of players, the other blames no one.

2) It is not necessarily the responsibility of those that prefer OOB servers to cater to those that don't just because they have proven capable of running a server.  As you can see it is a pet peeve of mine when people can't take responsibility for their own delimas, and insist it is someone else fault, just because they followed their own course.

Kroma,

PS, would be happy to help you in any server creation, with tech or web site creation. The map editor is really easy to use too. There are a few things I believe you need to know though, like having allied races and such, but I am sure Jinn can give you the list of don't do's as I think he has tried them all. <snicker>

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Thanks for your kind offer Kroma, I may very well take you up on it.

A few comments:

However, that ain't their problem or responsibility. They are responsible only for creating servers for their own enjoyment.

I think more player makes more fun first and foremost, therefore an admin can't be too sensitive to comments of players with different views if he wants bigger turnout.  Yeah the complaints may be off base and/or undeserved but when you don the admin role you just have to suck it up if you want to keep people involved despite wanting to lash out at times.  You have my sympathies here.

Claiming to not be able to run a server for lack of technical expertise is funny though, considering that Jinn has done it. <snicker>

Are you telling me that J'inn actually does any of the work on "his" servers?  I thought Die Hard was doing it all?

<Snicker>




Now as for these people:

There are several tech folks that have directly stated their distain for OOB, yet no alternative servers have been forthcoming.

Please PM me and lets brainstorm whoever you may be.  Kroma if you have any names please pass em on to me.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I wasn't too worried about the phone bill.   I've found it rather cheap if I just have the person call me.  Free in fact.  I love how that works.

Yeah the phone thingy might work after all, just remembered something called the collect call......

<Snicker>

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Hey J'inn
Rather than have you do the map for mirror mirror if you just post your
home and cell numbers here (I don't know when Ill be able to call) I'll give you a shout and you can tell me how
to do it as well..

Woot!  yes just talk to Hexx and I'll get him to do any maps I need, no work and a natural scapegoat who could ask for more!   

[kbf-jd]

And about nobody playing them,  Primetime Sunday night, 18 people on GW5, compaired to a year ago, hardly anyone on GW5.  Please don't take that as a knock on the server, it's just a fact.  And beleave you me, I'm not too happy about it either.  Nothing would make me happier than to see 30+ on a server, any server...

If we were running PP farming servers like you suggest the number of plyers would be no greater. I have no desire to waste hours upon hours fighting AI to get to by a bigger ship.

I am a bit suprised that Krueg makes you beg for ships though, Hexx I could see, but not Krueg.

Well, if you had bothered to read my idea above, you would know I was not just wanting to run a PVP farming server.  Some OOB and rules are needed.

And yes, it someone kills your Heavy Cruser, you should take a hit in the wallet and you might need to earn the right(PP) to buy another one...

The way things are going, the people who get assigned restricted ships can just meet up on Gamespy and duke it out....  Winner take all.  Or best 3 out of 5.

And while you are at it, can you name the last server you flew on where you did not have a restricted ship?

That's not a slap, but you have a different point of view.  That's cool....

jd

[Kroma BaSyl]

Well, if you had bothered to read my idea above, you would know I was not just wanting to run a PVP farming server.  Some OOB and rules are needed.

I read your post and the reason I ain't interested in your idea isn't because I thought you wanted no OOB, but because PP farming doesn't appeal to me. I fly Gorn and farming PP in early or mid is work, not fun.

And while you are at it, can you name the last server you flew on where you did not have a restricted ship?

GW2. The first OOB ship I ever flew was on GW3, I flew the Kzin BCH for a night. Flew a specialty ship F-CF on GW4 and eventually a BCV.

That's not a slap, but you have a different point of view.  That's cool....

Not sure why this should be taken as a slap. I didn't sleep with anyone to get the opportunity to fly them, I didn't beg or degrade myself either. I ASKED, and they gave it to me. The docks were overflowing with them too. Not sure how it works in the Coalition camp, but in the alliance all I had to do was ask. This is the first server where I have anything to do with the assigning, and the same conditions remain. Just ask, no need to be so fearful of rejection.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I think more player makes more fun first and foremost, therefore an admin can't be too sensitive to comments of players with different views if he wants bigger turnout.  Yeah the complaints may be off base and/or undeserved but when you don the admin role you just have to suck it up if you want to keep people involved despite wanting to lash out at times.  You have my sympathies here.

Actually the admins don't have to do anything they don't want to. If players can't express their desires without degrading the efforts of others then they aren't worth the effort, and aren't really people I want to play with anyway. More is not always better.

You seem to be still under the impression that I have an issue with different views on server setup, I don't, I like them all, and think we need a less restrictive server again. But as an example a better way to title such a thread as this might have been to say "What I would like to see in the D2 again..." instead of disparaging those that have differing ideas of what is fun and the gumption to see them to fruition. Their is a positive way to express your ideas for a server, that doesn't involve degrading the efforts of others or blaming them for your lack of fun.  People just can't take responsibility for themselves anymore and always expect others to do it for them.

Basically with the lack of server variety it is the admins not the few whiners you should be coddling.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I said the admins had my sympathies, what do I have to do come tuck you in to make you feel better?   


Well this KAT is smart enough to stay away from your bed, persons have gone missing for days there only to return limping and strangely silent about the whole affair   

I just happen to sympathize with both sides of the issue not feeling that either is wrong.  No reason that players can't express their views as they please, nor that admins can't do their settings as they please.  If the players should whine about the server settings a bit so be it, and if the admins should whine about being underappreciated a bit so be it.  I agree that the tone could use some improvement, and I think that applies to both sides, likely more could get discussed that way rather than spending so much time dealing with peoples hurt feelings and their masturbation of their bruised egos. 

[Kroma BaSyl]

I just happen to sympathize with both sides of the issue not feeling that either is wrong. 

You think that disparaging someone and expressing your desires from the premise of negativity isn't wrong? Or do you still not understand what I am actually on about?

No reason that players can't express their views as they please, nor that admins can't do their settings as they please.  If the players should whine about the server settings a bit so be it,  and if the admins should whine about being underappreciated a bit so be it.

Let me explain it to you one more time. It isn't an issue with differing views or the expression of them. It is an issue with how they are expressed. " If the players should whine about the server settings a bit so be it,," what it "be" is no servers at all to to play on as the few admins left and "able"will leave, and then there will be no servers.

I agree that the tone could use some improvement, and I think that applies to both sides, likely more could get discussed that way rather than spending so much time dealing with peoples hurt feelings and their masturbation of their bruised egos. 

You are hopelessly clueless Chuut. It ain't about anyones ego being bruised. It isme explaining to you how you as a player you can more effectively get you ideas across and influence an admin to incorporate your ideas. You take the position that the admins owe something to the players and I take the reverse position. Because as you have stated they are the ones "able" to run servers. You need to learn that there is a difference between not showing appreciation (which this isn't about) and using negativity and derision to express your point when attempting to influence someone to your position.

[Hexx]

Getting a ship from the coallition is fairly easy as well.. all you have to do is write a 500 word essay on why I'm the best.

Anyways somethings mentioned above I agree with, some I don't.

The idea of "If I fly and earn the PP I should be able to buy it" is fine , but some people simply don't have the
time or ability to be able to afford hugely expensive ships. Should they be excluded due to their limited playing times?
I remember some of the first servers I logged into, players who had been on for a week were flying around in Multi-CVA /DN fleets.
Maybe people have forgotten how many new players were turned off in those days because the first "real" ships you could afford (CA's around 9k)
weren't even remotely competitive, let alone the FF you started out in
Also- (although perhaps I'm wrong) "allowed to buy whatever ship I want" inevitably turns into "allowed to buy whatever I want" and again we have 3 droneboat fleets running around, with their users claiming that "three Lyran ships (for example) are just as easy to use"

Also - and I might be wrong on this- but alot of people we have left seem to like to have the ability to "achieve" something in PVP
Stalking and killing a BCH (or another "valuable" ship loses a bit of it's luster when the pilot simply goes out and buys another one next build cycle.

In any event I'd ask everyone (I'll beg later) to try Mirror Mirror. While it will have some restrictions I *think* regular (non BCF/BCV) BCH's will be unrestricted.
There will be multi DD (or FF if DD's are too powerful) fleets available to fly. There will be areas of the map that only CL's can go.
There will be PVP VP's- but they will be based on the players, not the ships, so there's no need to restrict certain ships to "elite" players.
In fact the DN's available will likely be simple strategic assets as they will not gain VP points for killing anything other than DN's.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I merely take the position with the "so be it" remarks that let people post what they will, but it doesn't mean that you have to listen to them if you don't like the tone.  Perhaps you didn't get my meaning, hope that clarifies it.  It was also a suggestion that both players and admins use "the golden rule" so that if they wanted a certain type of comment that they keep the tone of their own comments on the same level of what they wished to recieve not on the level of those whos comments they didn't care for.




So I'll call you a beautiful chunk of Gorniness rather than "Clueless"  


Slow day at work Kroma?   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Getting a ship from the coallition is fairly easy as well.. all you have to do is write a 500 word essay on why I'm the best.

Anyways somethings mentioned above I agree with, some I don't.

The idea of "If I fly and earn the PP I should be able to buy it" is fine , but some people simply don't have the
time or ability to be able to afford hugely expensive ships. Should they be excluded due to their limited playing times?
I remember some of the first servers I logged into, players who had been on for a week were flying around in Multi-CVA /DN fleets.
Maybe people have forgotten how many new players were turned off in those days because the first "real" ships you could afford (CA's around 9k)
weren't even remotely competitive, let alone the FF you started out in
Also- (although perhaps I'm wrong) "allowed to buy whatever ship I want" inevitably turns into "allowed to buy whatever I want" and again we have 3 droneboat fleets running around, with their users claiming that "three Lyran ships (for example) are just as easy to use"

Also - and I might be wrong on this- but alot of people we have left seem to like to have the ability to "achieve" something in PVP
Stalking and killing a BCH (or another "valuable" ship loses a bit of it's luster when the pilot simply goes out and buys another one next build cycle.

In any event I'd ask everyone (I'll beg later) to try Mirror Mirror. While it will have some restrictions I *think* regular (non BCF/BCV) BCH's will be unrestricted.
There will be multi DD (or FF if DD's are too powerful) fleets available to fly. There will be areas of the map that only CL's can go.
There will be PVP VP's- but they will be based on the players, not the ships, so there's no need to restrict certain ships to "elite" players.
In fact the DN's available will likely be simple strategic assets as they will not gain VP points for killing anything other than DN's.

Sounds good Hexx, with both sides having the same shiplist there will be little need of restrictions and keeping the DNs and BCVs restricted still makes for some degree of necessitating the use of your strategic reasources without creating a glut of such ships.  The limitations at the top of the line will also likely improve the defensibility of the full starbases to a degree. 

P.S.  you asking is quite nice, although uneccessary begging definately not needed.......no need to lower yourself

<Snicker>

[Kroma BaSyl]

I merely take the position with the "so be it" remarks that let people post what they will, but it doesn't mean that you have to listen to them if you don't like the tone.  Perhaps you didn't get my meaning, hope that clarifies it.  It was also a suggestion that both players and admins use "the golden rule" so that if they wanted a certain type of comment that they keep the tone of their own comments on the same level of what they wished to recieve not on the level of those whos comments they didn't care for.

You still don't get it. I don't care that they bitch, it doesn't bother me, I am not offended, nor do I need my ego stroked. I am trying to explain to you that if you or they want to actually have you ideas taken seriously by those "able" to run servers you would be doing yourselves a favor by be constructive vs destructive. You hit it on the nose, admins don't have to listen to the whining, and what I am trying to get through your head is that they probably won't. Thus by being negative in the expression of your desires for a better D2 you will only be allienating the people you wish to influence.

Here is an example of effectively influencing the admins. Back in the day when unrestricted servers were the rage, and whining of cheese was rambant, it wasn't the whining that lead to the OOB solution. It was a completely positive post my Corbo with an alternative solution (i.e. the original BP concept). He made the post and expression of his idea for addressing ithe issue de jour without having to complain or deride anything that came before. He simply stated an alternative, which partly do to his positive tone was read and listened to seriously, and then adopted. When you came and lay accusation about such and such server driving player off or start with a list of what you hate about a particular setup, you immediately cause those you most want to listen to you to tune you out.

You Chuut have misinterpreted my attempt to teach you how to better influence folks to your position as wanting the ego's of the admins stroked, while at the same time asserting that the admins should be bowing to the players that can't express their ideas positively.  I am saying neither, I am simply trying to get you and others to understand that if you really want to see a change and have your ideas taken seriously there is a better more effective means of doing it, that doesn't require ass kissing or coddling anyones ego's.  If an idea is a good one it is much more likely to be listened to if you don't first pissoff the very people you want and need to communicate it to. If you as a player can't communicate your desires for a different or better D2 in this fashion and/or aren't capible or willing to run your own server, then the demise of a D2 that you enjoy is no ones fault but your own. Thus my position of personal responsibility for your personal position/condition.

You seem to be of the somewhat stereotypical "liberal" position that it is someone elses fault for your condition. I am of the position that one must take responsibility for ones own condition, and am suggesting a more productive way for players to do that without having to learn how to run a server on their own.

You can catch more flys with honey, as they say.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You still don't get it. I don't care that they bitch, it doesn't bother me, I am not offended, nor do I need my ego stroked.

glad to hear it

I am trying to explain to you that if you or they want to actually have you ideas taken seriously by those "able" to run servers you would be doing yourselves a favor by be constructive vs destructive. You hit it on the nose, admins don't have to listen to the whining, and what I am trying to get through your head is that they probably won't. Thus by being negative in the expression of your desires for a better D2 you will only be allienating the people you wish to influence.

Always held that view although at times I likely lost myself in frustration, as is human nature.

You Chuut have misinterpreted my attempt to teach you how to better influence folks to your position as wanting the ego's of the admins stroked, while at the same time asserting that the admins should be bowing to the players that can't express their ideas positively.  I am saying neither

I know what you are on about Kroma, just pointing out that admin belittling of player comments is the same thing as uncunstructive player comments to admins.  I don't think either has to listen to the other but it would be nice if we all tried to work together in a 'golden rule' fashion.  You seem to somehow get the impression that I am siding with player complaints, I am not.  I am siding against whining and negative attitudes of both the players and the admins.  When I say admins should just ignore those remarks , I can't understand how you can take this as "bowing to the players that can't express their views positively".  I'll restate my view bluntly for clarity:

If an admin finds a player tone about an issue on a server objectionable, he should tell  HIMSELF  F*&% him, and ignore the post,  If a player finds an admins tones about an issue on a server he should tell  HIMSELF  F*&% him.

I am simply trying to get you and others to understand that if you really want to see a change and have your ideas taken seriously there is a better more effective means of doing it, that doesn't require ass kissing or coddling anyones ego's.  If an idea is a good one it is much more likely to be listened to if you don't first pissoff the very people you want and need to communicate it to. If you as a player can't communicate your desires for a different or better D2 in this fashion and/or aren't capible or willing to run your own server, then the demise of a D2 that you enjoy is no ones fault but your own. Thus my position of personal responsibility for your personal position/condition.

Don't disagree with this, never have. 

You seem to be of the somewhat stereotypical "liberal" position that it is someone elses fault for your condition. I am of the position that one must take responsibility for ones own condition, and am suggesting a more productive way for players to do that without having to learn how to run a server on their own.

You misuderstand me then, as my position is that it is a group undertaking with both admins and players needing to take joint responsibility if a vibrant dynaverse is to be maintained.  Its a two way street if you want to maintain the current level of participation.  If you don't care about that level then do as thou wilt, and I will do likewise.   

I don't think its anyone's "fault", as "fault" implies guilt, I think it is a likely consequence of the community reaching a point where interests have differed as to what is desired. 

At this point players will likely stay as long as their style of play is entertained and leave for another game when it isn't.  And admins will likely continue to put up servers until a minimum critical mass is reached and they feel it is not worth the effort.

You can catch more flys with honey, as they say.

Funny it seems to me that the flies tend to gather mostly around the cow pastures   

[Kroma BaSyl]

I know what you are on about Kroma, just pointing out that admin belittling of player comments is the same thing as uncunstructive player comments to admins.

I the real world (not that I'm-OK-Your-OK utopia you envision) they are not the same. All it takes is one vocal negative player to drive off or pissoff the few remaining admins, and then everyone loses. The truth is the admins that are "able" do have the power to run servers, and we players for the most part do not. In the real world we do owe them a certian amount of respect and courtesy, if we want to continue to be the beneficiaries of their services.

  You seem to somehow get the impression that I am siding with player complaints

No I am saying you are dismissive of player attitudes and equate their weight in light of the poor and negative delivery with defesiveness on the part of those that volunteer their time to work for the communittee. I give admins and players that can express themselves positively more weight, and suggest that others should too.

I don't think its anyone's "fault", as "fault" implies guilt, I think it is a likely consequence of the community reaching a point where interests have differed as to what is desired. 

Ah ha!!!! You get it!!!!! That is what I have been trying to tell you. I have NEVER seen an admin tell the players it is there fault for not playing, however, I have seen players tell the admins and communittee at large that either directly or indirectly the demise of the D2 numbers or their own interest in the game was due to the setups of the few admins still running servers, without offering anything constructive in return. Thus my position that the negative approah and apathy of players is more detremental to the D2 at large than admins occasional defensiveness to such slaps from ingrates. Less is sometimes more.

[el-Karnak]

the reason I would never and I mean NEVER play it is because it is pay to play and I cant see doing that and wont  do that as I wont have a disk in my hand after I am done or for some reason I miss a couple payments all that I have put into the game is GONE like I was never there and I have nothing so show for the cash I put out.

Hmm, looks like the standard argument one gives out just before they go for a pay-per-play game.   Pay-per-games are worth it if you have these gamer characteristics, IMO:

• Dedicated to one game on a long-term basis
• Able to put in a consistent set of playing time on a weekly basis
• Look forward to a constant cycle of new game publishes that, depending on your point of view, improve or change the game

Instead of always have to beg for patches for a non-monthly subscription game, you can always looks forward to your voice being heard, not necessarily listened to, by the developers on the MMORG game's forums regarding future game improvements.  That's pretty good value for your money if you like the constant improvements.  MMORG games like SWG can look a lot different a year after initial release.  If you don't like the improvements then you just cancel your account.

In a nutshell, the pay-per-play game's monthly subscriptions are helping to pay developers to actually go in and change the game's code with all the standard supporting legal conditionsregarding game vendor and game player relationships in place.

Not nessarily looking for "unrestricted"  but there was the idea some time ago that you have 2 different ships in the list like:

F-sBCG   cost 15000pp  This is a restricted ship that can be purchased via OOB only
F-BCG    cost  300000pp  Anyone that earns the PP can buy it

Yeah!! I've been arguing for this kind of system since SS2.  I think J'inn is actually moving in that direction with AOTK2.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I the real world (not that I'm-OK-Your-OK utopia you envision) they are not the same. All it takes is one vocal negative player to drive off or pissoff the few remaining admins, and then everyone loses. The truth is the admins that are "able" do have the power to run servers, and we players for the most part do not. In the real world we do owe them a certian amount of respect and courtesy, if we want to continue to be the beneficiaries of their services.

And the players put in their time with participation as well, I see it as egalitarian and that all deserve a certain amount of respect and courtesy if we are to be the benefactories of their participation at any level.  

No I am saying you are dismissive of player attitudes and equate their weight in light of the poor and negative delivery with defesiveness on the part of those that volunteer their time to work for the communittee. I give admins and players that can express themselves positively more weight, and suggest that others should too.

Yes I do equate their weight, we are all human beings playing a game to have fun, we all do what we do for the sake of that fun.

Ah ha!!!! You get it!!!!! That is what I have been trying to tell you.

 

funny as I already knew it  

I have NEVER seen an admin tell the players it is there fault for not playing, however, I have seen players tell the admins and communittee at large that either directly or indirectly the demise of the D2 numbers or their own interest in the game was due to the setups of the few admins still running servers, without offering anything constructive in return. Thus my position that the negative approah and apathy of players is more detremental to the D2 at large than admins occasional defensiveness to such slaps from ingrates. Less is sometimes more.

And my position is that they are equal in that poor behavior is undesired by both.   Ranking behavior based on importance is not the way to go in my opinion, but holding everyone accountable to the same standards is.

EDIT:  Some how this part didn't get put in the first time 

I have NEVER seen an admin tell the players it is there fault for not playing

But you have seen Admins blame payers for their server problems, think GW 2, I don't think Dizzy was an admin on that one 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

the reason I would never and I mean NEVER play it is because it is pay to play and I cant see doing that and wont  do that as I wont have a disk in my hand after I am done or for some reason I miss a couple payments all that I have put into the game is GONE like I was never there and I have nothing so show for the cash I put out.

Hmm, looks like the standard argument one gives out just before they go for a pay-per-play game.   Pay-per-games are worth it if you have these gamer characteristics, IMO:

• Dedicated to one game on a long-term basis
• Able to put in a consistent set of playing time on a weekly basis
• Look forward to a constant cycle of new game publishes that, depending on your point of view, improve or change the game

Instead of always have to beg for patches for a non-monthly subscription game, you can always looks forward to your voice being heard, not necessarily listened to, by the developers on the MMORG game's forums regarding future game improvements.  That's pretty good value for your money if you like the constant improvements.  MMORG games like SWG can look a lot different a year after initial release.  If you don't like the improvements then you just cancel your account.

In a nutshell, the pay-per-play game's monthly subscriptions are helping to pay developers to actually go in and change the game's code with all the standard supporting legal conditionsregarding game vendor and game player relationships in place.

Not nessarily looking for "unrestricted"  but there was the idea some time ago that you have 2 different ships in the list like:

F-sBCG   cost 15000pp  This is a restricted ship that can be purchased via OOB only
F-BCG    cost  300000pp  Anyone that earns the PP can buy it

Yeah!! I've been arguing for this kind of system since SS2.  I think J'inn is actually moving in that direction with AOTK2.

Yup have to agree with you there Karnak.  Never thought I'd do a pay for play but I'm having a blast on City of Heroes.  It just keeps getting better even in the short time I've been doing it and more cool stuff is yet to come.  The fact that folkes can cancel and resubscribe seems to keep the developments coming at a good pace, and it seems like everytime I can think to make a suggestion I find out it is already in development.

Still there is nothing like the D2 when your having fun in one of your favorite campaigns

[FPF-DieHard]

AOTK2 will have no OOB.

I love OOB, but it shouldn't be on every server.  Having every server the same is like banging the same chick over and over again . . .

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

AOTK2 will have no OOB.

I love OOB, but it shouldn't be on every server.  Having every server the same is like banging the same chick over and over again . . .

Yup and if you think that the chick is ugly.......

[FPF-DieHard]

Yup and if you think that the chick is ugly.......

Bang her for practice 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Yup and if you think that the chick is ugly.......

Bang her for practice 

Nah I prefer to go out and look for a pretty one elswhere   

[Kroma BaSyl]

And the players put in their time with participation as well, I see it as egalitarian and that all deserve a certain amount of respect and courtesy if we are to be the benefactories of their participation at any level.   

Yes I do equate their weight, we are all human beings playing a game to have fun, we all do what we do for the sake of that fun.

And degrading the efforts of those that spend their free time creating the environments where you have your fun is a far greater offense than the defensive response of those that are the target. Thus your blame the victim mentality doesn't sit well with me.

But you have seen Admins blame payers for their server problems, think GW 2, I don't think Dizzy was an admin on that one 

A rather apropos Freudian slip there in bold. I now see why you believe the admins owe something to the players. Let me correct you though, the admins do it for free.

You bring up the perfect example with GW2 though. I never saw any admin blame a player for their problems on GW2. I did however see directly how certain players in a attempt to coerce admins to tweaking the system to their teams advantage actually stooped to directly and indirectly stating that the admins had deliberately cheated to gain advantage for the team the admin happened to be playing on.  I personally flamed said players, not for expressing their differing opinion on the server changes, but for stooping to such a low tactic as impugning the integrity of the admins involved in order to attempt to gain some small tactical advantage.

I did the exact same thing on SGO4 (that time defending as an admin the very same player I had flammed for being a player ingrate previously) when I saw ingrates attack and deride those admins for their efforts. I am not against expression of opinion, I am against negative expression of opinion to the very folks whom you should be thanking. I simply hold the efforts of the admins above the destructive criticism of a few vocal miscreants, whom I feel the game is often better without.

If you want to weight them equally, you won't be doing them, their positions or the betterment of the game any practical good, I'm-ok-your-ok nonsense aside.

[FPF-DieHard]

Yup and if you think that the chick is ugly.......

Bang her for practice 

Nah I prefer to go out and look for a pretty one elswhere   

Hard to do when the bars are closing

[Kroma BaSyl]

Yup and if you think that the chick is ugly.......

Bang her for practice 

Nah I prefer to go out and look for a pretty one elswhere   

Hard to do when the bars are closing

Bars??? I thought you picked up chicks at the kenel club.

[FPF-DieHard]

I missed the GW2 comment.   That screw up can be blaimed on Dizzy.   He kept harrasing us with so much bullsh*t that important issues were missed.  We only have so much time to get things done and if 90% of it is taken up listening to the ramblings of a moron, sh*t happens.

[el-Karnak]

Yup and if you think that the chick is ugly.......

Bang her for practice 

Nah I prefer to go out and look for a pretty one elswhere   

Espescially, the ones with black and red hawtpants!!

[FPF-DieHard]

Should I have used a food analogy? 

[Squiggy]

Hi,

After reading through this stuff, I've decided not to return.  Funny thing was that I thought you guys were looking to attract new/former players.

[Laflin]

Hi,

After reading through this stuff, I've decided not to return.  Funny thing was that I thought you guys were looking to attract new/former players.

You always were so damned sensitive...