Topic: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is  (Read 8155 times)

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Offline Rat Boy

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The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« on: March 29, 2005, 11:33:29 am »
Found this at the TrekBBS, reprinted from a column in Dreamwatch magazine.  All I can say to Dirk Benedict is amen, brother.  You tell 'em!


Starbuck: Lost in Castration

Once upon a time, in what used to be a far away land called Hollywood but is now a state of mind and everywhere, a young actor was handed a script and asked to bring to life a character called Starbuck. I am that actor. The script was called Battlestar Galactica.

Fortunately I was young, my imagination fertile and adrenal glands strong, because bringing Starbuck to life was over the dead imaginations of a lot of Network Executives. Every character trait I struggled to give him was met with vigourous resistance. A charming womaniser? The "Suits" (Network Executives) hated it. A cigar (fumerello) smoker? The Suits hated it. A reluctant hero who found humour in the bleakest of situations? The Suits hated it. All this negative feedback convinced me I was on the right track.

Starbuck was meant to be a loveable rogue. It was best for the show, best for the character and the best that I could do. The Suits didn't think so. "One more cigar and he's fired,"they told Glen Larson, the creator of the show. "We want Starbuck to appeal to the female audience for crying out loud!" You see, the Suits knew women were turned off by men who smoked cigars. Especially young men. (How they "knew" this was never revealed.) And they didn't stop there. "If Dirk doesn't quit playing every scene with a girl like he wants to get her in bed, he's fired!" This was, well, it was blatant heterosexuality. Treating women like "sex objects". I thought it was flirting. Never mind. They wouldn't have it.

I wouldn't have it any other way, or rather Starbuck wouldn't. So we persevered, Starbuck and I. The show, as the saying goes, went on and the rest is history – for, lo and behold, women from all over the world sent me boxes of cigars, phone numbers, dinner requests, marriage proposals... The Suits were not impressed. They would have
there way, which is what Suits do best, and after one season of puffing and flirting and gambling, Starbuck, that loveable scoundrel, was indeed fired. Which is to say Battlestar Galactica was cancelled. Starbuck however, would not stay cancelled, but simply morphed into another flirting, cigar-smoking, blatant heterosexual called Faceman. Another show, another set of Suits and, of course, if the A-Team movie rumours prove correct, another remake.

There was a time – I know I was there – when men were men, women were women and sometimes a cigar was just a good smoke. But 40 years of feminism have taken their toll. The war against masculinity has been won. Everything has turned into its opposite, so that what was once flirting and smoking is now sexual harassment and criminal. And
everyone is more lonely and miserable as a result.

Witness the "re-imagined" Battlestar Galactica. It's bleak, miserable, despairing, angry and confused. Which is to say, it reflects, in microcosm, the complete change in the politics and mores of today's world as opposed to the world of yesterday. The world of Lorne Greene (Adama) and Fred Astaire (Starbuck's Poppa), and Dirk Benedict (Starbuck). I would guess Lorne is glad he's in that Big Bonanza in the sky and well out of it. Starbuck, alas, has not been so lucky. He's not been left to pass quietly into that trivial world of cancelled TV characters.

"Re-imagining", they call it. "un-imagining" is more accurate. To take what once was and twist it into what never was intended. So that a television show based on hope, spiritual faith, and family is unimagined and regurgitated as a show of despair, sexual violence and family dysfunction. To better reflect the times of ambiguous morality in which we live, one would assume. A show in which the aliens (Cylons) are justified in their desire to destroy our civilization.
One would assume. Indeed, let us not say who are the guys and who are the bad. That is being "judgemental". And that kind of (simplistic) thinking went out with Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan and Katharine Hepburn and John Wayne and, well the original Battlestar Galactica.

In the bleak and miserable, "re-imagined" world of Battlestar Galactica, things are never that simple. Maybe the Cylons are not evil and alien but in fact enlightened and evolved? Let us not judge them so harshly. Maybe it is they who deserve to live and Adama, and his human ilk who deserves to die? And what a way to go! For the re- imagined terrorists (Cylons) are not mechanical robots void of soul, of sexuality, but rather humanoid six-foot-tall former lingerie models who f**k you to death. (Poor old Starbuck, you were imagined too early. Think of the fun you could have had `fighting' with these thong-clad aliens!). In the spirit of such soft-core sci-fi porn I think a more re-imaginative title would have been F**cked by A Cylon. (Apologies to Touched by An Angel.)

One thing is certain. In the new un-imagined, re-imagined world of Battlestar Galactica everything is female driven. The male characters, from Adama on down, are confused, weak, and wracked with indecision while the female characters are decisive, bold, angry as hell, puffing cigars (gasp) and not about to take it any more.

One can quickly surmise what a problem the original Starbuck created for the re-imaginators. Starbuck was all charm and humour and flirting without an angry bone in his womanising body. Yes, he was definitely `female driven', but not in the politically correct ways of Re-imagined Television. What to do, wondered the Re-imaginators?
Keep him as he was, with a twinkle in his eye, a stogie in his mouth, a girl in every galaxy? This could not be. He would stick out like, well like a jock strap in a drawer of thongs. Starbuck refused to be re-imagined. It became the Great Dilemma. How to have your Starbuck and delete him too?

The best minds in the world of un-imagination doubled their intake of Double Soy Lattes as they gathered in their smoke-free offices to curse the day this chauvinistic Viper Pilot was allowed to be. But never under estimate the power of the un-imaginative mind when it encounters an obstacle (character) it subconsciously loathes. "Re- inspiration" struck. Starbuck would go the way of most men in today's society. Starbuck would become "Stardoe". What the Suits of
yesteryear had been incapable of doing to Starbuck 25 years ago was accomplished quicker than you can say orchiectomy. Much quicker. As in, "Frak! Gonads Gone!" And the word went out to all the Suits in all the smoke-free offices throughout the land of Un- imagination, "Starbuck is dead. Long live Stardoe!"

I'm not sure if a cigar in the mouth of Stardoe resonates in the same way it did in the mouth of Starbuck. Perhaps. Perhaps it "resonates" more. Perhaps that's the point. I'm not sure. What I am sure of is this…

Women are from Venus. Men are from Mars. Hamlet does not scan as Hamletta. Nor does Han Solo as Han Sally. Faceman is not the same as
Facewoman. Nor does a Stardoe a Starbuck make. Men hand out cigars. Women `hand out' babies. And thus the world, for thousands of years, has gone round.

I am also sure that Show Business has been morphing for many decades now and has finally become Biz Business. The creative artists have lost and the Suits have won. Suits. Administrators. Technocrats.
Metro-sexual money-men (and women) who create formulas to guarantee profit margins. Because movies and television shows are not made to enlighten or even entertain but simply to make money. They will tell you it is (still) about story and character but all it is really about is efficiency. About The Formula. Because Harvard Business School Technocrats run Hollywood and what Technocrats know is what must be removed from all business is Risk. And I tell you life, real life, is all about risk. I tell you that without risk you have no creativity, no art. I tell you that without risk you have Remakes. You have Charlie's Angels, The Saint, Mission Impossible, The A-Team (coming soon) Battlestar Galactica. All risk-free brand names, franchises.

For you see, TV Shows (and movies) are made and sold according to the same business formula as hamburger franchises. So that it matters not if the `best' hamburger, what matters is that you `think' it is the best. And you do think it's the best, because you have been told to; because all of your favourite celebrities are seen munching it on TV.
The big money is not spent on making the hamburger or the television show, but on the marketing of the hamburger/show. (One 60-second commercial can cost more than it does to film a one-hour episode.) It matters not to Suits if it is Starbuck or Stardoe, if the Cylons are robots or lingerie models, if the show is full of optimism and morality or pessimism and amorality. What matters is that it is marketed well, so that all you people out there in TV land know that you must see this show. And after you see it, you are told that you should like it. That it is new and bold and sleek and sexy and best of all… it is Re-imagined!

So grab a Coke from the fridge (not the Classic Coke, but the re-imagined kind with fewer calories) and send out for a McDonald's Hamburger (the re-imagined one with fewer carbs) and tune in to Stardoe and Cylon #6 (or was it #69?) and Enjoy The Show.

And if you don't enjoy the show, or the hamburger and Coke, it's not the fault of those re-imaginative technocrats that brought them to you. It is your fault. You and your individual instincts, tastes, judgement. Your refusal to let go of the memory of the show that once was. You just don't know what is good for you. But stay tuned. After another 13 episodes (and millions of dollars of marketing), you will see the light. You, your instincts, your judgement, are wrong. McDonald's is the best hamburger on the planet, Coca-Cola the best drink. Stardoe is the best Viper Pilot in the Galaxy. And Battlestar Galactica, contrary to what your memory tells you, never existed before the Re-imagination of 2003.

I disagree. But perhaps, you had to be there.

Dirk Benedict, writing in Dreamwatch, May 2004


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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2005, 12:13:50 pm »
Wow, that is pretty aptly stated.  I'm of the 'younger' generation and only finally watched the original Battle Star Galactica last year.  Loved it.  However, for whatever reason I could never figure out why the new one really didn't catch my interest.  I've sloughed through 3 episodes of the new one thus far and been bored to death every one (of course I'm not much of a TV watcher now days so maybe that has something to do with it).  I do find it interesting now that he mentions it that Buck and Doe are the names of Deer, and so aptly she shouldn't be starbuck, but in reality in fitting with her name, stardoe.

I have enjoyed some of the reimagined remakes however, such as the Mummy movies.

He played a character on the A-Team?  I know Mr. T did, as for some reason some kids my age still have a fascination with him, and we see him in Rocky 3.  He played BBbarabbas I beleive or something...however, I'll have to make more of an effort to watch the Ateam so that I can see the character Dirk Benedict played.
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2005, 12:50:05 pm »
And what a way to go! For the re- imagined terrorists (Cylons) are not mechanical robots void of soul, of sexuality, but rather humanoid six-foot-tall former lingerie models who f**k you to death. (Poor old Starbuck, you were imagined too early. Think of the fun you could have had `fighting' with these thong-clad aliens!).


 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You've got to love Dirk Benedict's sense of humor.

I guess now we know why Richard Hatch was offered a cameo role, and Dirk wasn't.

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Offline FPF-Wanderer

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2005, 01:22:44 pm »
While the not-so-subtle mysoginistic underpinnings of Dirk's comments tend to rankle my leftist sensibilities ;D, I gotta totally agree with what he has to say about Hollywood suits and the crap they churn out time after time.  They wouldn't know art if it bit them on the a$$.

As to Hatch getting a recurring role, I have to say I was rather surprised, considering he panned the mini-series pretty hard when it first came out.  Then again, money talks...
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Offline Khalee1

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2005, 02:02:20 pm »
Well hes wrong about Coca-Cola,  DrPepper is the best drink out there not Coca-Cola. And the only thing worth buying at Mcdonalds, other than the Bigmac meal with large fries and DrPepper and cheeseburger meal with large fries and DrPepper is the quarter pounder with cheese meal with large fries and DrPepper. everything else sucks at Mcdonalds.

Offline E_Look

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2005, 02:27:40 pm »
Heck, they tried this in the Trekniverse already!  They reimagined TOS... you know, weak ship but never got destroyed... except this time with an old chick in command instead of womanizing ol' Jim Kirk.  They called it Vo...

Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2005, 03:09:29 pm »
As to Hatch getting a recurring role, I have to say I was rather surprised, considering he panned the mini-series pretty hard when it first came out.  Then again, money talks...

Notice he's playing the bad guy who wants to kill the president, do away with command structure, and seize total control of the fleet.

Maybe some underlying irony in that role appealed to him.  ;)

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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2005, 04:38:58 pm »
The problem with this spiel is that the new BSG is a hell of a lot better than the old one ever was.  I know the original was fun space opera and the new one is supposed to be more serious, and that some folks equate serious to 'better'...but I'm not one of those people.  Acting, storyline, characterization, etc...there's all a lot more of it on the new BSG.

I'm a Dirk Benedict fan to a certain degree, but I gotta disagree with his rant.  To me, 'Starbuck' is Lt. Kara Thrace.  Dirk lost the role in the theater of my mind about three episodes into the new series.
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Offline Rat Boy

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2005, 04:58:34 pm »
However, for whatever reason I could never figure out why the new one really didn't catch my interest.


Probably because it has nothing to do with the original Battlestar Galactica.  About the only thing the two shows have in common are a few names and that's it.  Everything else was junked in the "re-imagining" of it, including a lot of the first BSG's charm and appeal.


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Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2005, 05:25:45 pm »
The new BSG is darker, much darker. 

It appeals to me. 

It is showing more humanity & human weakness of both sexes than the original, it has a desperation to it that the original BSG did not have. 

The original seems like "The Love Boat" in space anymore and though I do like the original Starbuck more.... the new one has her appeal also.

And I think he is dead wrong about the new Adama being indecisive.

Tigh & Apollo?  Yeah... but not Adama.

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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2005, 05:30:39 pm »
Quote
Tigh & Apollo?  Yeah... but not Adama.

"You have to lose control."

Loved that line.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2005, 05:45:13 pm »
Actually, I saw something about Edward James Olmos doing an interview on the local spanish channel... I swear I heard a quote by him saying something about "Spics in Space" and about died laughing.
Political Correctness is really Political Censorship

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Offline Javora

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2005, 05:49:13 pm »
The original seems like "The Love Boat" in space anymore and though I do like the original Starbuck more.... the new one has her appeal also.

Not to me, the new Starbuck looks too much like Macaulay Culkin.  Sorry, but I can't find the appeal in her.

There are some aspects of the new BSG that I do like but for the most part I agree with Dirk.  Anybody that doesn't agree with him only needs to look at the Farscape series and the "reasons" why Sci-Fi stated it was canceling the show.  Dirk is a smart funny person, and I found what he said to be a very good thought provoking read.

Offline Javora

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2005, 05:52:07 pm »
Actually, I saw something about Edward James Olmos doing an interview on the local spanish channel... I swear I heard a quote by him saying something about "Spics in Space" and about died laughing.

I saw part of that, Olmos said that he "was the first Latin-American in space".  Anybody that watched Voyager knows that is not true.

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2005, 07:30:26 pm »
The original seems like "The Love Boat" in space anymore and though I do like the original Starbuck more.... the new one has her appeal also.

Not to me, the new Starbuck looks too much like Macaulay Culkin. Sorry, but I can't find the appeal in her.

There are some aspects of the new BSG that I do like but for the most part I agree with Dirk. Anybody that doesn't agree with him only needs to look at the Farscape series and the "reasons" why Sci-Fi stated it was canceling the show. Dirk is a smart funny person, and I found what he said to be a very good thought provoking read.

Oh, I agree with Dirk on a lot of the article especially the 'suits' part...

And while I like the new StarDoe... I do not find her sexually appealing, but a fascinating study of self destructiveness..

Now the new Boomer....  :woot:

She is smoking!!!
Political Correctness is really Political Censorship

A tax code should exist to procure the funds necessary for the operation of government, not to manipulate human or business behavior.

A nocens dies in loricatus est melior quam a bonus dies procul opus.

A bad peace is even worse than war."  --  Tacitus

"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it" -Claude Castonguay

Offline TheJudge

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2005, 08:54:11 pm »
I....I have to admit this...I'm sexually attracted to Starbuck.


Both of them. 


Now, I wouldn't marry either of them either, but I have to admit that I CAN get a chubby over the new starbuck, especially whenever she punches Lee (apollo) or cuts him down verbally, or she's playing with the Doctor, or kicking the crap out of something.  I get a little tingling feeling and the desire to have her on top, so to say. 

We wouldn't last relationship wise unless she doesn't have a problem with me having a boy on the side...but yeah, one time around in the sack wouldn't be too bad, especially if Apollo or the doctor joins in.

SO, there you have it guys, the woman that The Judge WOULD have sex with....
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Offline likkerpig

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2005, 09:12:42 pm »
I only read half that rant from the original "starbuck", sounded like someone is bitter.
I watched the original series religiously as a kid, loved it.
A few years back I bought the original movie on vhs... watched it once and gave it away... just horrible. I'll overlook the special effects of the time and the '70's hairstyles but god, it just sucked! And that kid with his pet robot daggit... made me want to vomit!
Give me the new one any day... the new starbuck isn't "a lovable rogue with a heart of gold" Errol Flynn wannabe, the cylons don't want to destroy humanity "just because", etc. I like the harshness, the desperation... makes it feel more "real", instead of some damn left over hippy love in, where the only people who die are the robots. And there is no f***ing daggits!
Along the same vien that is why ds9 was my favorite st series, it left most of the "hug me" crap of TNG and political correctness of voy out. It was billed as a darker trek and lived up to it fairly well.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2005, 09:55:21 pm »
The problem with this spiel is that the new BSG is a hell of a lot better than the old one ever was. I know the original was fun space opera and the new one is supposed to be more serious, and that some folks equate serious to 'better'...but I'm not one of those people. Acting, storyline, characterization, etc...there's all a lot more of it on the new BSG.

I'm a Dirk Benedict fan to a certain degree, but I gotta disagree with his rant. To me, 'Starbuck' is Lt. Kara Thrace. Dirk lost the role in the theater of my mind about three episodes into the new series.

Except for the fact that the original BSG was #1 in the ratings and was cancelled due to how much money it cost (the TV execs at the time didn't like spending a million or more dollars per episode in 1970s dollars) and the BSG now is rated...what...9000th or something...actually not that low, but I think probably not in the top 10 shows on TV.  Some of the items they tried to do to save money during the season is actually pretty hilarious.

However, whether or which one is better is completely a matter of opinion.  I do think he had a point about Starbuck though...a lassie can't be a buck, genetically it's impossible...so in that light, in reality though she wants to be starbuck, she really would have to be stardoe!

:P
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Offline Aldaron_Nirantani

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2005, 09:58:47 pm »
I like both shows but for different reasons.

The new one IS boring but still intriguing. It has very little action like the original had. It's more a soap opera with action thrown in here and there. Dirk is definitely correct in about all of his rant. The suits dictate and have thier hands in far too much. For example JMS rathered to drop Crusades completely than to cater to what TNT wanted for the show and destroy his vision and creation.

The new BSG IS more female oriented and has far too much soft porn in it.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2005, 10:04:44 pm »
Hmm, I liked the old BSG.  It wasn't the effects, it was just more interesting.  Perhaps it's the attempt at the Sci Fi people to make it more "real" that bores the heck out of me.  I think hard core Sci Fi channel watcher might like it (I don't really watch SG-1 either, though I found it more interesting than BSG the few times  I watched part of their shows).  Overall, the Sci Fi channel that I see in the US when they produce shows are rather bland.

The most engaging show that I saw on Sci Fi as of late was Wizard of Earthsea, but they screwed that story up pretty badly...never got to see how it ended (Know how the books end though).  To tell the Truth in the US the Animal Planet channel has much more interesting Sci fi (though maybe not in the Space Opera arena as the New BSG series) such as their recent show, Making Dragons Real, as well as other discovery type Sci fi such as Walking with Dinosaurs, and the show which speculated about the evolution from the beginning then on long past man's extinction.

The New Dr. Who might be more interesting however, if given half a chance.  Perhaps the best chance for a good Sci Fi that's come about for a while...at least it's not produced by Sci Fi.

Actually, I take it back, season 4 of Enterprise finally was interesting (the first 3 seasons dwaddled and were more boring than just about everything else, but something strange happened in Season 4 that actually got my attention enough to watch it on a more regular basis) and had some interesting ideas pertaining to Sci Fi, even if it had a little fantasy mixed into it.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2005, 10:07:20 pm »
I like both shows but for different reasons.

The new one IS boring but still intriguing. It has very little action like the original had. It's more a soap opera with action thrown in here and there. Dirk is definitely correct in about all of his rant. The suits dictate and have thier hands in far too much. For example JMS rathered to drop Crusades completely than to cater to what TNT wanted for the show and destroy his vision and creation.

The new BSG IS more female oriented and has far too much soft porn in it.

Maybe that's the reason I found it boring, it didn't have enough action and not enough intellectual stimulation comparatively to other shows.  Now that I think about it that's a distinct possiblity.  Toss in the addition that many of the actions scenes just don't seem to grab you like they do in other shows, with their decision for the gritty combat feeling instead of the heroic combat ideas...

That's a very real possiblity now that I think about it why it hasn't caught my attention.
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"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2005, 05:32:53 pm »
Actually, I saw something about Edward James Olmos doing an interview on the local spanish channel... I swear I heard a quote by him saying something about "Spics in Space" and about died laughing.

I saw part of that, Olmos said that he "was the first Latin-American in space".  Anybody that watched Voyager knows that is not true.


But there are still no Italians in Sci FI.

You know why there are no Italians on Star Trek?   If there were, the ship would be powered by a "Whop Drive" that mixed pasta and anti-pasta   ;D
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Offline Strafer

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2005, 06:38:01 pm »
Closest we'll get is driven by Bistromath, I guess...  ::)
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Offline Hexx

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2005, 07:23:24 pm »
Don't they have an interview with Benedict on the BSG DVD? Didn't seem to upset with the new series then.
And BTW New Series is much better(imho) than the old stuff, although I can sit and watch Original Series trek all day
there's no way I can get through a singel episode of the original BSG.
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Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2005, 08:43:43 pm »
Actually, I saw something about Edward James Olmos doing an interview on the local spanish channel... I swear I heard a quote by him saying something about "Spics in Space" and about died laughing.

I saw part of that, Olmos said that he "was the first Latin-American in space".  Anybody that watched Voyager knows that is not true.


But there are still no Italians in Sci FI.

You know why there are no Italians on Star Trek?   If there were, the ship would be powered by a "Whop Drive" that mixed pasta and anti-pasta   ;D

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Offline E_Look

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2005, 09:46:05 pm »
DieHard, you ought to post that on that SFC Italia site!   :rofl:

Dude, +1!

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2005, 11:10:05 pm »
Hmmmm.... shouldn't it be WOP drive?  IE "With Out Parents"
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Offline Javora

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2005, 01:06:37 am »
Don't they have an interview with Benedict on the BSG DVD? Didn't seem to upset with the new series then.
And BTW New Series is much better(imho) than the old stuff, although I can sit and watch Original Series trek all day
there's no way I can get through a singel episode of the original BSG.

Yes Sci-Fi did bring Benedict in to do a promo to help sell the "Female Starbuck".  But Sci-Fi didn't have more than a handfull of episodes in the can by that time depending when the promo was done.  So I doubt that Dirk had time to really see what was being done on the show before he did the promo.  That is if Dirk had time to even see the pilot before he did the promo.

Offline Villa64

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2005, 10:10:59 am »
I think that it's very interesting that despite all the assertions that the new BSG 'sucks', it will be picked up for another season... something that the unassailable original series failed to do...
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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2005, 10:26:01 am »
I think that it's very interesting that despite all the assertions that the new BSG 'sucks', it will be picked up for another season... something that the unassailable original series failed to do...

Richard Hatch has trying the re-surrect BSG in the Old Series' image for decades now. He even mortgaged his house to produce a trailer for the network suits to see, and nobody bites on it.

You take a look at all the successful Star Trek TNG productions and you'll find Ronald Moore heavily involved (ie. First Contact movie, war story-centric TNG episodes, and DS9). Plus, you can factor in his predecessor, Nicolas Meyer, who basically saved StarTrek from oblivion in 1982 by directing StarTrek II:TWOK. Then, N. Meyer wrote all the best Earth scenes in Star Trek IV:The Voyage Home that help made it the most popular trekkie movie, and, to top it all off, he directed Star Trek VI:TUDC.

So, is it a surprise that the RDM produced new BSG mini-series is taking off while the B&B corrupted Star Trek is being cast out into the outer darkness of TV Cancellation's empty void?  No.

Is it a surprise that there is a reason that some people are actors and some people are successful sci-fi show writers/producers?  Cross-Reference the first post above to find out. ;)

Anyway, take the case from a "show-me-the-money" Network Suit's perspective:  profit margins talk, while meaningless hot-air BS talk walks. :D
« Last Edit: March 31, 2005, 10:53:30 am by el-Karnak »

Offline Dash Jones

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2005, 11:08:18 am »
I think that it's very interesting that despite all the assertions that the new BSG 'sucks', it will be picked up for another season... something that the unassailable original series failed to do...

Yep, the original was #1 in the ratings, this new remake is...as I said before...what #5000th...

It's all about the money though.  The original, depsite having stellar ratings, was costing the execs well over a million an episode, whilst in today's TV market that doesn't seem much, in the 70s I suppose it sounded outrageous.

So it didn't make the money that other shows did because of the costs of producing it.

I suppose it boils down to a better money making scheme now.  It's not about how many watch, but how profitable it is.  At least that's what I figure, as this BSG is at the bottom of the ratings charts in comparison to the top ten shows typically from what I've seen in the US ratings.

Of course then again, I suppose you could compare it to the other small time shows that originally shouldn't have been low on the ratings lists but are...like Enterprise...and make it seem that much better when comparing ratings.

But compared to the original's ratings and numbers...the new remake doesn't come close.  It has a second season for other reasonings than ratings, numbers watching, or those who like it.  It's called money.
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

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There is no "I" in team. There are two "I"s in Vin Diesel. screw you, team.

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2005, 11:23:46 am »
Interesting new BSG season 1 review from die-hard Trekkie fan that should serve as a good rebuttal to first post in this thread:

source:  http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/weblogs/brain/archives/001279.html

Battlestar Galactica: A season too sweet, too short
March 30, 2005

What amazes me so much about Battlestar Galactica is how much I'll miss the grim and gripping saga between the finale of a too-short 13-episode season Friday night and the start of a second season in July.

This from a die-hard Trekkie who likely won't shed a tear when Enterprise finally clunks its way off the interstellar stage later this spring.

Much to my surprise, the producers have continued to find amazing depth in the tale of 47,000-odd refugees fleeing the destruction their civilization by renegade androids. Where the cheesy 1970s series quickly resorted to plots about aliens, clones and gods, the new Galactica deftly drives the story along with tension, mystery and interpersonal conflict between richly-drawn characters.

The dramatic premise of the show -- that the Battlestar Galactica and a relative handful of Colonial spaceships have just escaped from the Cylons and are always on the verge of being discovered -- is tautly maintained from episode to episode. (I also found the original miniseries "fierce and entertaining."

The series may not be "hard" science fiction with realistic physics and detailed calculations, but the main plot is driven by "the situation": Early episodes dealt with the strain of continuously fleeing the Cylons; running short of water due to sabotage; the search for water; running short of food; running short of pilots; the search for fuel; political tensions as people demand a say in their government.

There really hasn't been a need to contrive storylines involving, say, the need to fly the fleet past an ice planet with a giant gun on it. Once you build a more or less coherent universe for your characters to move around in, some storylines will develop naturally. Galactica reminds me a lot of Babylon 5 and Star Trek: Deep Space 9 in that way.

The nature of the Cylons -- the fact that some can now take human form -- also adds a continuing tension to almost every interaction on the show. In a parallel to today's terrorism fears, the Colonials constantly fear Cylon infiltrators. And until everyone is tested and his or her loyalty is confirmed, anyone could be a Cylon. (Who'd expect an episode about torturing a robot to be so thought-provoking?)

Layered on top of this are the political clashes: President Laura Roslin vs. Commander William Adama, Roslin vs. populist rebel Tom Zarek, plus Dr. Gaius Baltar's new role as Roslin's vice president. And we have all the interpersonal issues: Adama and his son, Lee (Apollo); Lee's thing for Lt. Kara Thrace (Starbuck); Adama's issues with Starbuck over the death of his other son, Zack; plus too many more to list. Even if you don't for the sci-fi, it's a bloody wonderful space soap opera.

The show also has had an appealing sense of unfolding mystery to it. As the introductory narrative explains every episode, it's clear that the Cylons have some sort of plan. It was never clearly explained why they chose to wipe out humanity. Simple revenge? Because humans don't believe in their one god? For the old sci-fi adage that they'll eventually wind up fighting with humans over resources anyway? Is the Cylon god just a token of faith -- or a product of their networked consciousness or a mainframe somewhere?

Plus there's the whole Lt. Sharon Valerii (Boomer) / Lt. Karl C. Agathon (Helo) thing that's been going on on Caprica, some sort of Cylon experiment gone awry. It's clear the Cylons want to feel and somehow need to interact with humans to do it. I can't believe Helo's the only survivor. It wouldn't surprise me to see more of them turn up, or to see Cylon-raised humans or Cylon-turned humans show up to harass the Colonials.

The last few episodes have introduced some new supernatural elements, with Roslin apparently having visions and prophecies apparently coming true. Unless you're talking Jedi, I'm always a bit troubled when writers blend their supernatural elements with their sci-fi -- people look silly enough talking about things foreseen in ancient writings without holding blasters in their hands -- but if the Galactica folks can pull this one off without sending everyone back to 1980s Earth in white uniforms, I'll be happy.

Ever since DS9 went off the air, I've wished Trek could do half so well.



Offline Death_Merchant

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2005, 12:05:16 pm »
Interesting... strong opinions on both sides. No surprise to me ;)

I will say this: My DVR is set to record BSG, but not Enterprise anymore.
BSG has me interested in the characters, Enterprise does not.

I guess that is what it boils down to for me. Take the BSG episode "The Hand of God". This is a "Big Mac" episode according to Moore ("Big Mac" means a big, fun, wow-em shoot-em-up gift for the fans).

Did I like the battle sequence? Sure
Is that why I loved the episode? Nope

I loved the fact that a few Viper pilots went down, and you recognized them from previous episodes (not faceless stock-shots of exploding ships). I loved the fact that the "best pilot - Starbuck" could not go, and she was wrestling with that. I loved Apollo's friends and father implying they thought he might not be up to the task, and Apollo realizing they felt that.

No one would have doubted the original Apollo. He had no doubts, he made no mistakes, he had no flaws.
In the 70's, I liked that. Now? I find it uninteresting.

Opinions? Everyone has them.
Yours may differ ;)
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Offline E_Look

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2005, 02:34:17 pm »
Hmmmm.... shouldn't it be WOP drive?  IE "With Out Parents"

Bear, "P" stood for "passport".

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2005, 04:02:28 pm »
Hmmmm.... shouldn't it be WOP drive?  IE "With Out Parents"

Bear, "P" stood for "passport".

Not where I grew up.... ;)
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Offline jualdeaux

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2005, 04:38:41 pm »
I can not speak about how I like or dislike the new series due to the fact that I gave up cable a while ago and don't even have broadcast. I will say that i was not overly thrilled at the "miniseries."

My post is about the ratings and how people are sayting that the original series was #1 and the new is at the bottom. Back when the original was on, there were how many channels to really choose from? 3? maybe 4? How many are there now to choose from? 500 plus for some people? Very few, if any, shows these days are getting the same percentage of viewership as was possible in the past. Granted, there are more people watching, but they still have hundreds of channels to choose from.
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Offline TheJudge

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2005, 07:17:49 pm »
The original series premiered in an era where you had ABC, CBS, NBC, and PBS on television, with maybe a few independent stations. 

The new series premieres in an era when a cable channel that pulls a 3.2 share is considered a success.  For broadcast stations, that's borderline.  Any broadcast show at 3.2 that costs what a sci-fi show costs can really expect cancellation.  On the other hand, cable stations don't have to pull the four to ten shares for advertisers to dish out the bucks.  What's more important is the category of viewers, and the BSG is pulling in those viewers like crazy.  It doesn't need a high overall rating.

Here's the kicker though...if NBC were to bring it into its regular line-up, it could challenge the front-running shows.  If NBC were smart, it'd bring BSG into its line-up as filler...take its worst-rated slot, plug in BSG at NO EXTRA cost.  Show the original episode on the previous friday night, then the next week plug in the BSG for free (NBC-Universal owns Sci-Fi, NBC, and USA as well as several others).  If BSG can pull a five rating on the NBC broadcasts, as well as compete with the Friday night sci-fi shows, it will make a lot of money for NBC.  Here's something else to ponder, with its CURRENT RATINGS, BSG is beating Enterprise, SG-1, and SG Atlantis each week.  It is the #1 show for its network, Sci-fi. 

As a comparison, the other highest rated show on cable for Friday nights is Monk.  This is owned by the same company as Sci-Fi.  Monk has been established as a cult hit for years now, and pulls in regular ratings each year.  Guess what? BSG is either #1, just beating out Monk, or is just beaten out by Monk and takes the #2 slot each Friday for cable broadcast shows.  Guess what that means...ADVERTISER DOLLARS.

BSG is pulling in the BIG BOYS of advertisers, the ones who dish out millions to make a splash every year at the super bowl.  More importantly, they're paying TOP DOLLAR for BSG advertising slots.  Last week I heard that BSG is pulling as much for a 30 second slot as any of the broadcast channels are charging and almost the same amount as Monk.  The original show died because advertising revenue did NOT exceed production costs by a wide-enough margin.  The new BSG got renewed because Advertising revenues are through the roof in comparison to production costs and that's with people on the cast like Edward James Olmos and Mary Mcdonough (sp?). 

Those two do NOT come cheap, and they're worth every penny.  They form the core of this show and hold it up very well.  Considering that most of its viewers are in the CRITICAL 18-49 group, the advertisers will continue to flock to this show. 

Love it or hate it, the NEW BSG has what it takes to make it on television. 
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2005, 01:05:35 pm »
My post is about the ratings and how people are sayting that the original series was #1 and the new is at the bottom.

Guys, the old show was not #1.  It hovered near the bottom, at least in the second half of its single season.

I remember, because the original BSG was the year that my paper's TV guide insert first starting regularly posting the Nielson ratings each week.  They posted the top ten shows and the bottom five.  Each week I opened the ratings with hope, and each week there was BSG, second or third from the bottom.  I was upset when the show was cancelled but I was not surprised.

Now, that was the last half of the season.  The three-hour bonanza that kicked it off was hyped a great deal, and may very well have ranked #1.  I've no idea.

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Offline TheJudge

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2005, 02:33:19 pm »
The old show as cancelled after one season because it didn't make enough money for the network.  The new show is renewed because it makes enough money for the network.

that's the bottom line.
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2005, 03:27:00 pm »
To be sure, I'm a big fan of the new show now.  That is a surprise to me, since from the pre-show press I didn't think I would like it.  I enjoy watching it because it has that rare quality among Science Fiction shows these days:  it is an engaging story that is well written on a consistent basis.   It also helps that my wife loves it, and hates SG1 and Enterprise, so it is the one good science fiction show I can watch with her.

Dirk Benedict does remind me of one thing I loathe about the new show however:  In this new version, the humans built the cylons.  WTF?

The whole "our destruction is our own fault" story was interesting the first time I saw it (about thirty years ago....) but by now it's been done to death and I'm sick of it.  Seems like we can't ever be the good guys anymore.   

When I heard the Cylons were going to be re-worked, I'd rather hoped for a return to the original concept:  the Cylons were an alien race rarely seen outside of their powered combat suits.  This concept was kept in the novelizations and the novels, but dropped on TV.  ABC didn't want a lot of killing every week -- not even alien killing.  That was "too violent".   So the Cylons were turned into robots for TV.  None of the suits cared if robots got killed every week.

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Offline TheJudge

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2005, 03:49:51 pm »
I've liked the we are are own worst enemy theme.  It's not fifty years old, it's as old as the bible itself.  :)  Maybe even older.

You really need to watch the deleted scenes.  Episode 12 had a deleted scene that laid out the whole cylon plan to anyone with half a brain.  it's more than just machines rebelling against man, which Asimov did to perfection in his books. 

Oh, and um, have you ever noticed just how sexy Ron Moore's voice is?  I'm listening ot his podcast right now. 
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2005, 04:07:26 pm »
I've liked the we are are own worst enemy theme.  It's not fifty years old, it's as old as the bible itself.  :)  Maybe even older.

YEah, but *I'm* not that old!

Quote
You really need to watch the deleted scenes.  Episode 12 had a deleted scene that laid out the whole cylon plan to anyone with half a brain.  it's more than just machines rebelling against man, which Asimov did to perfection in his books. 

I'd love to.  Do you have a link?  My wife and I stay about a week behind on episodes because of some really crazy work schedules we've had.  Thus I've avoided most of the BSG threads and have likely missed the link if you've posted it before.

By the way, I've meant to post this for some time:  When the show started this season, I *loved* reading your threads on it.  Even though you'd seen the entire season in advance you were still able to talk about the show and hold interesting discussions without giving anything away and without making me scroll past spoiler warnings.   (I hate doing that, I always end seeing something I wish I hadn't.)  Those were some of the best posts I've ever read from someone who had advanced knowledge on a topic I wanted to read about and yet was polite enough not to spoil it for anyone else.


Quote
Oh, and um, have you ever noticed just how sexy Ron Moore's voice is?  I'm listening ot his podcast right now. 

I'm sorry, what did you say?  I had to stop listening because Boomer was talking......    :P

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Offline TheJudge

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2005, 04:18:10 pm »
Thanks for the kind words on spoilers and my early posts.  :)


Here's the link to Ron Moore's Blog:  http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/

Here's the link to the episodes (scroll down for the deleted scenes):  http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/112/ (the one I referred to is the second row, first picture with baltar and starbuck facing each other)

Also, here's the link for the podcasts:  http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/index.html


Now, here's a SPOILER about the role Dirk Benedict COULD HAVE HAD on BSG:






























Ron Moore's podcast gives us his original ending to the Season:  Baltar walks into a dark room under the Kobol temple and is greated with Jimmy Hendrix music.  Dirk Benedict walks out from behind him and says:  Hi, I'm God (referring to the CYLON GOD).

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Now THAT would have been geek boy ending.

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He who can master the data controls the world.

Offline Death_Merchant

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2005, 12:01:08 pm »
Much gushing and drooling over Part II of the season finale over at aintitcoolnews

Don't even think of clicking this link unless you've seen it. MAJOR spoilage.

I did say MAJOR SPOILAGE didn't I?
http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=19781
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

Offline Villa64

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Re: The REAL Starbuck tellin' it like it is
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2005, 10:14:46 pm »
Judge

Thanks for the post regarding ratings.  I was leaving for Texas over the weekend and didnt get a chance to look up the ratings for the show to respond, but suspected that what you posted was the case.  Hey Dash... what he said.

I saw the finale Friday night.  Cool!  I think it may be the primer for next season... The whole senior leadership is gone, and their replacements are all evil!  Cool!  I also liked the scene where the chief tells the LT that he needs to get a move on.  That one gets replayed daily in real life.

Back to real life (I hate reruns)
Villa
Engaging the precious snowflakes of the world.