Topic: Anyone playing Silent Hunter III?

[Commander La'ra]

Nonsense.  If the war was motivated by strategic domination, why did we wait to be attacked before intervening militarily?  Why did we not attempt to annex or colonize the territories we re-took from the Japanese?  Sounds like your views on the war aren't just "less than idealistic."

You're correct.  They're also based on the events leading up to the war and my opinions on the political situation in the US and Japan at the time.  Why did we wait to be attacked?  Because we live in a Republic that, in most cases, won't support a war if we're not smacked across the face first.  Why did we not annex and colonize?  Because self-sufficient allies are just as effective as colonies without nearly so much money for maintenence or supressing guerilla resistance.

Take a good long look at US foreign policy in the Pacific prior to WWII and you'll definitely see provocations made on both sides.  We were preparing for war with Japan long before they invading Manchuria or committed any other aggressive action.

This is probably getting too hot for Ten-Forward.  If you want to keep going, let's move over the Hot & Spicy.

[J. Carney]

I agree, the politics are getting out of hand.

On the lighter note, I just finished my first partol.

My first kill- a 2500 ton Norwiegen freighter... I know it's neutral, but BdU DID say unrestricted submarine warfare.

[Matsukasi]

Just sank a cruiser in my Type VII. All four of my fish hit with no duds..woot.

Hauled ass before the destroyers found me. I so wanted to nail the flattop but waaaaaaaaaaay too many screening vessels for my lame arse to dodge just yet.

[Commander La'ra]

Sure.  Taunt me.

*doesn't get paid till next week*

[CaptStumpy]

I want a game that stops screwing around in U-Boats and turns you loose in the Pacific in a S-Boat or a Gato class.

Prime reason I'm avoiding this one.  While the crew features and dynamic campaign sounded interested, I'm turned off by the Nazi bit.  Hopefully, the rumored SH4 will focus on the American submarine force of World War II.

If rumours prove true, it will be.

[Dracho]

I can see the logic of a gaming company using the U-boats, as they went through so many upgrades that it gives more flexibility to the game and allows for more upgrades to the player character's career (i.e. supposed to be more interesting).  With American subs, it's mostly a move from S-boats to Gato class and that's it, though hunting in the South China Sea and Sea of Japan was probably one of the most dangerous submarine assignments of the war.

In reality, the U-boat crews suffered a higher casualty rate than any other branch of any other service, Allied or Axis.  Of the roughly 1200 U-boats that put to sea, more than 800 were never heard from again.  In the end, they lost their war in the Atlantic and were never able to interrupt the flow of war materials to Europe.

America, on the other hand, lost only about 54 of its submarines in the Pacific, and they won the war that Germany could not.  Of the 12,000,000 tons of Japanese merchant shipping afloat at the beginning of the war, more than 8,000,000 tons of it was sunk by US Navy Submarines.   Naval aviation accounted for another 2,000,000 tons, leaving Japan with only about 1/6 the merchant and tanker capacity it had at the beginning of the war.

The American merchant fleet, by contrast, increased its capacity by several thousand percent.

Odd that no game ever puts one in a Japanese I-Boat hunting American ships though, isn't it?

[J. Carney]

I can see the logic of a gaming company using the U-boats, as they went through so many upgrades that it gives more flexibility to the game and allows for more upgrades to the player character's career (i.e. supposed to be more interesting).  With American subs, it's mostly a move from S-boats to Gato class and that's it, though hunting in the South China Sea and Sea of Japan was probably one of the most dangerous submarine assignments of the war.

In reality, the U-boat crews suffered a higher casualty rate than any other branch of any other service, Allied or Axis.  Of the roughly 1200 U-boats that put to sea, more than 800 were never heard from again.  In the end, they lost their war in the Atlantic and were never able to interrupt the flow of war materials to Europe.

America, on the other hand, lost only about 54 of its submarines in the Pacific, and they won the war that Germany could not.  Of the 12,000,000 tons of Japanese merchant shipping afloat at the beginning of the war, more than 8,000,000 tons of it was sunk by US Navy Submarines.   Naval aviation accounted for another 2,000,000 tons, leaving Japan with only about 1/6 the merchant and tanker capacity it had at the beginning of the war.

The American merchant fleet, by contrast, increased its capacity by several thousand percent.

Odd that no game ever puts one in a Japanese I-Boat hunting American ships though, isn't it?

Germany accomplished 'more with less' so to speak. Their skippers put more tonnage on the board in less time than their American counterparts. Their failure was not in themselves or their boats, but that they faced more than one opponent and this from a position of disadvantage. Their opponents were experienced in anti-sub operations from the First World War, and specifically developed technology in the intervening years and on during the war to combat the U-boats.

Japan's anti-sub work was apathetic at best, and only a token effort in comparison to the Atlantic theater. The Japanese were a surface force, and they expected to be combatted on the surface in 'honorable' gun duels between battle fleets with aircraft in support (this is why Yamato and Musashi were built, to outgun the American North Carolina-class in the gun duels trhat they hoped to instigate).

The United States also had no co-beligerants to consider when fighting Japan. How many times do you hear about Germany sending convoys to support the Japanese war effort? The United States was the only thing that won the Battle of the Atlantic... without us, the U-boats would have brought England to it's knees and enabled Operation Sea Lion to take place right on schedule.

What the Allies did agianst Japan was almost like 5 kids with knives sneaking up on one guy intent on fighting with fists. Germany was one guy with a knife trying to fight 5 guys with guns... eventually, the odds catch up with you.

[Commander La'ra]

The United States was the only thing that won the Battle of the Atlantic... without us, the U-boats would have brought England to it's knees and enabled Operation Sea Lion to take place right on schedule.

Gotta argue with ya' on this one, Carney.  We gave some invaluable assistance early on with the loan of a passel of WWI destroyers, and by enforcing such things as the 'neutrality patrol', but as far as wartime contributions go, prior to 1943 we really did more harm than good since we managed to ignore almost every single thing the Brits tried to tell us about ASW tactics and techniques.  Doenitz sensed the weakness too, which sparked Operation Drumbeat.

We did get our crap together eventually, but even late in the war, the Brits and Canadians were still guarding the entire Eastern Atlantic. 

Of course that's in the 'sink the U-Boats' arena.  It's easier to make a case for your statement when you toss in all the planes, merchant ships, and destroyers we were churning out, so if you're talking about the material the Allies used to win, then I'll stop arguing.

I firmly believe that WWII (against Germany) was won in the North Atlantic.  It's been said the Soviets could've eventually beat Germany on their own, and on the ground, that's probably true...but they had to get their bullets from somewhere.

[J. Carney]

The United States was the only thing that won the Battle of the Atlantic... without us, the U-boats would have brought England to it's knees and enabled Operation Sea Lion to take place right on schedule.

Of course that's in the 'sink the U-Boats' arena.  It's easier to make a case for your statement when you toss in all the planes, merchant ships, and destroyers we were churning out, so if you're talking about the material the Allies used to win, then I'll stop arguing.

That's precisely what I'm talking about. We gave the Brits something that they didn't have... the same advantage that we had agianst Japan. That was a 'factory floor' that was beyond the reach of your opponent's strikes, and a source of fresh reenforcements who's morale was unsullied by past defeats.

The Lend-Lease tin cans and and tanks that we sent the Brits were what kept the North Atlantic and West Africa campaigns going till we could get into the war for real. Then, of course, the Brits had an ally that could play back-up and take some of the heat off them, whlie also helping build airstrips, factories, shipyards, etc that could produce more British 'home-built' goods... like the Flower and Black Swan classes of sloops that you and I dispise so much.

[Commander La'ra]

Gotcha.

Heheh.  Ever read any accounts of what life was like on those little tubs?  They were never meant for the North Atlantic and would roll considerably even in minor swells.  Even old chief's and other such hardened sea veterans would turn green on a Flower-class ship.

On the other hand, they were remarkably seaworthy in that very little in the way of weather was a real danger to them.

[IAF Lyrkiller]

From a historical standpoint, the German U-boats were really made to run on the surface, not under water.

How do i know that? I read about it. and of course i can easily step into there shoes  and feel it.

[J. Carney]

From a historical standpoint, the German U-boats were really made to run on the surface, not under water.

How do i know that? I read about it. and of course i can easily step into there shoes  and feel it.

Yeah... the U-boats were only about 50% as big as our Fleet Boats, and they only had about 50% of the battery capacity as well. They were definately made with submerging in mind as an 'exit strategy' rather than an attack doctrine. By comparison, our stuff was made to slip up on a target underwater and they only surface when the coast was clear; a Gato was a lot bigger and easier to see on the surface- even on a moonless night (to say nothing of the N-class!).

But don't forget that the Krauts were planning to reverse their doctrine with the introduction of the XXI's and XXIII's. One of those could STILL make trouble were it to turn up today, what with their acustic-homing torps and the good Krupp steel that they were made of.

Didn't the Krauts also experement with wire-guided fish before the war was out?


And La'ra... one of the best quotes I ever read about a Flower was in the old AoD manual- they said that they would 'roll on wet grass.'

[Commander La'ra]

By comparison, our stuff was made to slip up on a target underwater and they only surface when the coast was clear; a Gato was a lot bigger and easier to see on the surface- even on a moonless night (to say nothing of the N-class!).

Of course, our subs high maximum surface speed made night surface attacks a practical option for us, too.  21 knots.  Playing SH I after Aces of the Deep felt like trading in a Taurus for a 60's style muscle car.

But don't forget that the Krauts were planning to reverse their doctrine with the introduction of the XXI's and XXIII's. One of those could STILL make trouble were it to turn up today, what with their acustic-homing torps and the good Krupp steel that they were made of.

The Soviet Foxtrots were almost a direct copy of the XXI, if I recall.

Speaking of acoustic torpedos, ever get one dropped on you by a patrol plane in SH2?  It's one of those nice 'I'm dead, but I have a minute or so to think about it first' feelings.

Didn't the Krauts also experement with wire-guided fish before the war was out?

Yes.  We might have too, though I don't recall.  The Germans also tried hydrogen peroxide propulsion.  Turned out to be too dangerous, but imagine if they'd figured out an air-independent propulsion system in 1943 or so...

And La'ra... one of the best quotes I ever read about a Flower was in the old AoD manual- they said that they would 'roll on wet grass.'

I remember that!  I'll have to dig the old manual out now...I still have it somewhere.

[J. Carney]

NOTE TO ALL PLAYING SHIII!!!

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DUPLICATE GUNTER PRIEN'S INFILTRATION OF SCAPPA FLOW!!! THERE ARE EIGHT (.8.), I SAY AGIAN, EIGHT (.8.) HUNT-CLASS DESTROYERS IN THE LOCH AND NO CAPITAL SHIPS IN THE DOCKS. THIS COST ME A TYPEIID BOAT AND A WELL-DECORATED CREW.


OK, learn from my Stupidity (note the capital S)- stay out of the harbors.

[Commander La'ra]

*looks up from his charts of the area*

Damn!

[J. Carney]

*looks up from his charts of the area*

Damn!

Yeah, that was me getting a little ballsy and wanting to nail something to take care of my 'itchy neck.' I mean, I pulled in the dang place so far I could see INTO the graving docks... like you start out in Willhemsaven! Unfortunately, there wass no battleship waiting there for me like there was for Prien.

On the way out, I notices a patrol group of Hunt I's. They were shut down and stationary... andn one was BROADSIDE to me at a range of only 2000m! So I eased up on him, thinking 'Damned if I leave this place without sinking something the Royal Navy will miss.' At a range of 400m, I took the shot- as near a 0 degree Angle on the Bow shot as a man could contrive to get. The fish was, unfortunately, set on long-range mode.

D'OH!!!

Since it was one of the alcohol-powered torps, he saw the bubbles and the torp dudded because he got the impact angle too extreme. Those Hunt's can turn on a pfenning, BTW. All I got was rammed.

[Jack Morris]

This game would have to be out now while I have to return to Mexico. I LOVED  SH2, except for some strange reason the periscope view would not work. It really wasn't a big deal until radar fire control came out, nothing like cruising the surface at night and getting blasted by night fighters or radar equipped ship escorts...

[IAF Lyrkiller]

Well, I got Command AoD to work on my laptop and i am disappointed that the engine sounds dont work.

other then that everything else works. I will need to upgrade my desktop system to run SH3 though.

[J. Carney]

Well, I got Command AoD to work on my laptop and i am disappointed that the engine sounds dont work.

other then that everything else works. I will need to upgrade my desktop system to run SH3 though.

It's WELL worth the upgrade- just hope that you like micromanagement... you have to tell the guys in your crew when it's time to go night-night in this one, else they will work themselves into bad health and morale.

[Just plain old Punisher]

The flower class corvettes were converted from a whaling design, which turned out to be a bit "wet" =)