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Topic: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)  (Read 5331 times)

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Offline Monty

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Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« on: March 15, 2005, 04:37:47 am »
I was randomly reading the news when i read about netscape 8:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7152397/

There a few paragraphs where i thought "ooooh, thats a good idea" such as:

Quote
If Netscape deems a site good, a green shield appears and the browser displays the site using the IE software engine that is built into Windows. Netscape figures such sites present little security risk, so why not enable all the features?


and

Quote
Netscape displays a yellow shield when a site is absent from its list. In such cases, deeming Firefox safer, Netscape uses a Firefox engine that is embedded in Netscape's software.

Red shields along with a warning page appear when sites are on the bad list.

Not only does Netscape use Firefox, thus disabling ActiveX, but it also blocks that site from leaving data trackers called "cookies" and turns off support for Java and JavaScript, which can launch programs designed to steal information or perform other nasty tricks.


There is alot more to the article than just this but i thought this was of particular interest. I'll probably be downloading NS8 then when its offically released.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2005, 11:18:32 am »
Not only does Netscape use Firefox, thus disabling ActiveX, but it also blocks that site from leaving data trackers called "cookies" and turns off support for Java and JavaScript, which can launch programs designed to steal information or perform other nasty tricks.


Turn off JavaScript?  Completely disable cookies?

I can see ActiveX--even most MS technology web developers do not use ActiveX anymore unless working with legacy sites or code, but to block Java and or JavaScript is lame, imho. Take this site for instance:

Code: [Select]
<script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript" src="http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/Themes/default/script.js"></script>
<script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
It uses JavaScript. I think maybe the author of the article you cite is full of wet, sticky, intestinal droppings. Or, once again, the devleopers at Netscape have lost their minds. It wouldn't be the first time.

Jerry
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Offline Monty

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2005, 11:29:52 am »
I can see you're point. But it does says this only happens when a site is on a 'bad' list. Who knows what requirements must be met to be put on such a list but i would like to think it would be something extreme.

I primarilly like the idea that a browser could choose which engine to render the page. In fact i would favour it. But rather than have it automated through lists i would want absolute control. e.g. build my own list of sites for which to use IE and firefox for the other cases - what to disable and what not to.
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2005, 01:30:37 pm »
(edit: IE already allows full control of the browser site by site... I think Firefox/Mozilla/Netscape already do too...)

Javascript is useless, over 20% of users have it disabled. (or claim to...  they seem to be able to use the forums ok...) If it can't be scripted serverside, forget it.

I had to strip all javascript from my webmaps so they would work for everybody.

IE is still a pig with png files... (look at IE's memory use on the webmap with an overlay vs Firefox... ~140MB vs ~35 MB memory used...  :o)

I don't much like Netscape keeping a list of sites... who made them the authority? Why should I trust them?

Voyager is still my favorite and Firefox a close second.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 01:45:01 pm by Bonk »
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Offline Elvis

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2005, 03:20:14 pm »
Doesn't AOHell own Netscape? IIRC they do, that will be a show stopper for me who is as distrustful of AOL as Toasty is as trustful of MS. :P

PS. I'll rejoin the IE ranks as soon as tabbed browsing is a feature.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2005, 03:34:04 pm »
Quote from: Bonk on March 15, 2005, 01:30:37 pm


Javascript is useless, over 20% of users have it disabled. (or claim to...  they seem to be able to use the forums ok...) If it can't be scripted serverside, forget it.


I'm certainly no fan of JavaScript either. I find it ugly and lacks and cumbersome. I also am in agreement that given a choice server-side is always a better choice...always.

That aside, I find it hard to believe that anyone is using this site with JavaScript disabled. Look at the following code:

Code: [Select]
<select name="jumpto" onchange="if (this.options[this.selectedIndex].value) window.location.href='http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php' + this.options[this.selectedIndex].value;">
<option value="">Please select a destination:</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#1">Dynaverse.net</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=1.0"> => Announcements</option>
<option value="?board=3227.0"> => Feedback &amp; Feature requests.</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#6">Taldrenites</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=11.0"> => General Starfleet Command Forum</option>
<option value="?board=12.0"> => Dynaverse II Experiences</option>
<option value="?board=13.0"> => Dynaverse 3 Experiences</option>
<option value="?board=14.0"> => Starfleet Command Fan Fiction</option>
<option value="?board=15.0"> => Starfleet Command 3 BETA bug reports</option>
<option value="?board=3249.0"> => OP Open source support</option>
<option value="?board=16.0"> => Starfleet Command Models</option>
<option value="?board=3240.0"> ===> WIPs</option>
<option value="?board=3241.0"> ===> Final Products</option>
<option value="?board=17.0"> => Starfleet Command Mission Scripting</option>
<option value="?board=18.0"> => Starfleet Command Mods</option>
<option value="?board=19.0"> => Interactive Fiction</option>
<option value="?board=20.0"> ===> General Discussions</option>
<option value="?board=21.0"> ===> Taldrenite Haven NationStates</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#4">SFC EAW</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=4.0"> => Campaigns</option>
<option value="?board=8.0"> => Strategies</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#5">SFC OP</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=5.0"> => Campaigns</option>
<option value="?board=9.0"> => Strategies</option>
<option value="?board=3250.0"> => Orion Pirates Patrol Battles Arena</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#3">SFC 3</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=3.0"> => Campaigns</option>
<option value="?board=10.0"> => Strategies</option>
<option value="?board=3236.0"> => Mods Boards</option>
<option value="?board=3252.0"> ===> Alternate Universe</option>
<option value="?board=3233.0"> ===> Battlezone Mod</option>
<option value="?board=3234.0"> ===> DomWars</option>
<option value="?board=3235.0"> ===> Islandwars</option>
<option value="?board=3237.0"> ===> Generations at War</option>
<option value="?board=3238.0"> ===> Border Wars</option>
<option value="?board=3239.0"> ===> TOS mod</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#7">Off Topic</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=3242.0"> => Startrek Online</option>
<option value="?board=3248.0"> => Eve Online</option>
<option value="?board=22.0"> => Ten Forward</option>
<option value="?board=3253.0" selected="selected"> => Engineering</option>
<option value="?board=3251.0"> => Holodeck</option>
<option value="?board=23.0"> => Hot &amp; Spicy</option>
<option value="?board=24.0"> => The Equine Graveyard</option>
</select>&nbsp;
<input type="button" value="go" onclick="if (document.jumptoForm.jumpto.options[document.jumptoForm.jumpto.selectedIndex].value) window.location.href = 'http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php' + document.jumptoForm.jumpto.options[document.jumptoForm.jumpto.selectedIndex].value;" />
</form>
I could've missed something but this looks like JavaScript and it looks like the central client-side navigation control. Maybe server-side script is also in place for those who've disabled JavaScript but then the above would be redundant, right? Maybe those who think they've disabled JavaScript have in fact disabled the JVM...a number of folks do mixed Java and JavaScript up. Even those who should know better...myself included from time to time.

Jerry
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2005, 03:35:53 pm »
Quote from: Elvis on March 15, 2005, 03:20:14 pm
Doesn't AOHell own Netscape? IIRC they do, that will be a show stopper for me who is as distrustful of AOL as Toasty is as trustful of MS. :P

PS. I'll rejoin the IE ranks as soon as tabbed browsing is a feature.


 ;D ;D ;D

Some time remind me to show you why I like a LOT of MS products over many other technologies.

Jerry
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2005, 03:39:45 pm »
Quote from: toasty0 on March 15, 2005, 03:34:04 pm
Quote from: Bonk on March 15, 2005, 01:30:37 pm


Javascript is useless, over 20% of users have it disabled. (or claim to...  they seem to be able to use the forums ok...) If it can't be scripted serverside, forget it.


I'm certainly no fan of JavaScript either. I find it ugly and lacks and cumbersome. I also am in agreement that given a choice server-side is always a better choice...always.

That aside, I find it hard to believe that anyone is using this site with JavaScript disabled. Look at the following code:

Code: [Select]
<select name="jumpto" onchange="if (this.options[this.selectedIndex].value) window.location.href='http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php' + this.options[this.selectedIndex].value;">
<option value="">Please select a destination:</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#1">Dynaverse.net</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=1.0"> => Announcements</option>
<option value="?board=3227.0"> => Feedback &amp; Feature requests.</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#6">Taldrenites</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=11.0"> => General Starfleet Command Forum</option>
<option value="?board=12.0"> => Dynaverse II Experiences</option>
<option value="?board=13.0"> => Dynaverse 3 Experiences</option>
<option value="?board=14.0"> => Starfleet Command Fan Fiction</option>
<option value="?board=15.0"> => Starfleet Command 3 BETA bug reports</option>
<option value="?board=3249.0"> => OP Open source support</option>
<option value="?board=16.0"> => Starfleet Command Models</option>
<option value="?board=3240.0"> ===> WIPs</option>
<option value="?board=3241.0"> ===> Final Products</option>
<option value="?board=17.0"> => Starfleet Command Mission Scripting</option>
<option value="?board=18.0"> => Starfleet Command Mods</option>
<option value="?board=19.0"> => Interactive Fiction</option>
<option value="?board=20.0"> ===> General Discussions</option>
<option value="?board=21.0"> ===> Taldrenite Haven NationStates</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#4">SFC EAW</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=4.0"> => Campaigns</option>
<option value="?board=8.0"> => Strategies</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#5">SFC OP</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=5.0"> => Campaigns</option>
<option value="?board=9.0"> => Strategies</option>
<option value="?board=3250.0"> => Orion Pirates Patrol Battles Arena</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#3">SFC 3</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=3.0"> => Campaigns</option>
<option value="?board=10.0"> => Strategies</option>
<option value="?board=3236.0"> => Mods Boards</option>
<option value="?board=3252.0"> ===> Alternate Universe</option>
<option value="?board=3233.0"> ===> Battlezone Mod</option>
<option value="?board=3234.0"> ===> DomWars</option>
<option value="?board=3235.0"> ===> Islandwars</option>
<option value="?board=3237.0"> ===> Generations at War</option>
<option value="?board=3238.0"> ===> Border Wars</option>
<option value="?board=3239.0"> ===> TOS mod</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="#7">Off Topic</option>
<option value="" disabled="disabled">-----------------------------</option>
<option value="?board=3242.0"> => Startrek Online</option>
<option value="?board=3248.0"> => Eve Online</option>
<option value="?board=22.0"> => Ten Forward</option>
<option value="?board=3253.0" selected="selected"> => Engineering</option>
<option value="?board=3251.0"> => Holodeck</option>
<option value="?board=23.0"> => Hot &amp; Spicy</option>
<option value="?board=24.0"> => The Equine Graveyard</option>
</select>&nbsp;
<input type="button" value="go" onclick="if (document.jumptoForm.jumpto.options[document.jumptoForm.jumpto.selectedIndex].value) window.location.href = 'http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php' + document.jumptoForm.jumpto.options[document.jumptoForm.jumpto.selectedIndex].value;" />
</form>
I could've missed something but this looks like JavaScript and it looks like the central client-side navigation control. Maybe server-side script is also in place for those who've disabled JavaScript but then the above would be redundant, right? Maybe those who think they've disabled JavaScript have in fact disabled the JVM...a number of folks do mixed Java and JavaScript up. Even those who should know better...myself included from time to time.

Jerry



Exactly my point... I never understood how those who claimed to have javascript disabled and could not see the webmap managed to use the forums... probably site-by-site javascript permissions in the browser settings. (Perhaps they did not trust the webmap but did trust the forums?  ???)

Anyway, you cannot count on users allowing javascript, since so many claim to disable it I have eliminated it as useful in webpage construction - it can only cause problems. Lost functionality? Well until we find a client side scripting system that people will trust and use (flash? -ack!), javascript is still useless.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2005, 04:46:08 pm »
Quote from: Bonk on March 15, 2005, 03:39:45 pm


Anyway, you cannot count on users allowing javascript, since so many claim to disable it I have eliminated it as useful in webpage construction - it can only cause problems. Lost functionality? Well until we find a client side scripting system that people will trust and use (flash? -ack!), javascript is still useless.

If you don't mind mind my asking, what did you use to script the webmaps?

Jerry
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2005, 05:06:38 pm »
php, I posted the old webmap version a while ago. I'll post the updated code for the flatfile and sql maps again soon. I'm going to start work on an SMF integrated, enhanced version... ;)
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2005, 07:38:38 pm »
Quote from: Bonk on March 15, 2005, 05:06:38 pm
php, I posted the old webmap version a while ago. I'll post the updated code for the flatfile and sql maps again soon. I'm going to start work on an SMF integrated, enhanced version... ;)

Enhanced? You don't say... ;)
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2005, 08:23:01 pm »
Yeah, forums integration will make for easy shipyard security, and I'm looking at perhaps making it as an SMF mod where Dyna server stats can be associated with the forums profile... characters, campaigns, kills... unfortunately it is impossible to completely automate kill reporting, the db can only be used as a guide (mission crashes), so a tidy kills reporting page will be part of the new webmap setup... that kind of thing... but we're off topic here, I'll start a thread on it once I get going on it and the direct game matching page (which come to think of it I should integrate as well - could have campaign-addin potential and make the flatfile version more worthwhile...)
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2005, 09:50:15 pm »
Quote from: Bonk on March 15, 2005, 08:23:01 pm
Yeah, forums integration will make for easy shipyard security, and I'm looking at perhaps making it as an SMF mod where Dyna server stats can be associated with the forums profile... characters, campaigns, kills... unfortunately it is impossible to completely automate kill reporting, the db can only be used as a guide (mission crashes), so a tidy kills reporting page will be part of the new webmap setup... that kind of thing... but we're off topic here, I'll start a thread on it once I get going on it and the direct game matching page (which come to think of it I should integrate as well - could have campaign-addin potential and make the flatfile version more worthwhile...)

Too bad you work in php and mysql and I work in C# and sql2000. It looks like we're developing some similar concepts and designs db-wise...though mine is for a ladder league implementation and yours is for a campaign.

Yes yes, do start a fresh thread when you're ready.

Jerry
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2005, 10:13:51 pm »
I can't help myself... <hijack!>

Not so dissimilar at all. (would C# be good for a cross-browser plugin to detect the OP installation folder and launch the game with parameters passed from the matching page...? hint, hint!)

Perhaps we can coordinate our efforts to save work and so the work is complimentary... anyway it will be a bit before I get back to it but we should hook up on this stuff... asp(?) and php can even to work together...

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Offline toasty0

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Re: Netscape - The promise of the best of both worlds (IE and firefox)
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2005, 10:28:35 pm »
Quote from: Bonk on March 15, 2005, 10:13:51 pm
I can't help myself... <hijack!>

Not so dissimilar at all. (would C# be good for a cross-browser plugin to detect the OP installation folder and launch the game with parameters passed from the matching page...? hint, hint!)

Perhaps we can coordinate our efforts to save work and so the work is complimentary... anyway it will be a bit before I get back to it but we should hook up on this stuff... asp(?) and php can even to work together...



Hmmm...I'll give it some thought. To be honest I hadn't thought about using C# and ASP.NET for such a thing, but...well...I've always liked a challenge...interesting...*reaches for asprin*...yup...I can see many a late night hacking this one.

Best,
C62B7A88B616D43E1B9F509522D53DE41D64E87A
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