Topic: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles

[Corbomite]

How do you write a rule that covers a very specific instance that can have so many ambiguous instances? The most ironic I can think of is to launch an Admin to soak up the ESG of a Lyran PFE and have it alpha the shuttle instead. Did I do it to have it eat the ESG or the alpha? If you make the rule too broad, you restrict legitimate tactics, if you make it too specific that opens up the situation to possible disagreements.

[Kroma BaSyl]

 I will put this to a majority vote IF we can decide on a very KISS-like simple rule.  No Admin shuttles period, perhaps.     

               

I completely agree with your post except this part. A rule that broad would be unexceptable to me where a rule that limited the specific tactical use of shuttles would be exceptable. However, that said I believe it impossible to create a truely cut and dry rule to outlaw the specific use of admin shuttles, and thus we would have to live with a rule that had a certian amount of interpretation of spirite to it. Now I agree that this isn't a perfect situation, but let's face it, there isn't a single person here that doesn't understand what is meant by "not launching admin shuttles to distract fighters". I believe we are all adult enough and good enough sports to adhere to a less cut and dry rule that need to be interpreted a little.

All that being said, I wouldn't want to see any rule put in place until the next cycle.

[FPF-DieHard]

I believe we are all adult enough and good enough sports to adhere to a less cut and dry rule that need to be interpreted a little.

 

We have people arguing that this is a legit tactic.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I believe we are all adult enough and good enough sports to adhere to a less cut and dry rule that need to be interpreted a little.

 

We have people arguing that this is a legit tactic.

Correct, but my point is that all understand exactly what said tactic is, and therefore should have no problem understanding the spirite of a less cut and dry rule.

[Slider]

I agree under normal conditions a handshake agreement should be more than enough.



Slider

"When you have the facts, argue the facts.
When you have the law, argue the law.
When you have neither, argue in circles and call people names."


*for my next investigative report: Klingons using steroids to enhance their game.

Geraldo Slider

[Mutilator]

Is it a matter of timing for those that think it’s a exploit or a tactic? Where is the line?

What about the case of using Admin shuttles for extra point defense? One side is a Klingon or Mirak carrier group, the other side decided to launch admin shuttles for extra point defense and conduct a crawling range attack. The admins shuttles are out long before the fighters from the carrier group get to attack distance. Would the crawling defensive postured fleet have to recall them because the carrier group wants to send in their fighters to launch more drones, the very thing the non-carrier fleet tactically deployed them for in the first place?

I cannot see how this can be regulated where it will not take away a tool from fleets tactical options. For FSD we would entertain a rule that would have a total ban on admin shuttles across the board for all uses period. 

Right now our official position is and unlikely will it change that there is no need to restrict shuttles period.

When this current cycle is over should there be changes to the rules FSD will support the majority rule.

[KBF-Butcher]

Slider ,SoV brought this issue earlier in this cycle but they found the majority of the fleets to disagree.They made a shuttle thread at the Dynaverse2 experience as well at the time the SGO4 server was running but no rule or any handshake was made there either.

It seems to me that the majority of the posts here agree to what i initially stated and it was the obvious reasonable and civilised thing to do.
Make a dam thread so the fleets will vote what should be done with this issue and include the outcome to the rules.
Sorry Kel i like u and i appreciate your time and efforts u put for this league,but i beleive u should take place here earlier or should i say put the things in their place and give an end to prevent this mesh(flaming,bickering and people calling others cowards and cheaters).

[FPF-Bach]

it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

 

Bach is just happy that he isn't the only one that confuses irrelevant with enforceable. <snicker>

 

[762_XC]

Slider ,SoV brought this issue earlier in this cycle but they found the majority of the fleets to disagree.They made a shuttle thread at the Dynaverse2 experience as well at the time the SGO4 server was running but no rule or any handshake was made there either.

It seems to me that the majority of the posts here agree to what i initially stated and it was the obvious reasonable and civilised thing to do.
Make a dam thread so the fleets will vote what should be done with this issue and include the outcome to the rules.
Sorry Kel i like u and i appreciate your time and efforts u put for this league,but i beleive u should take place here earlier or should i say put the things in their place and give an end to prevent this mesh(flaming,bickering and people calling others cowards and cheaters).

I think your assessment of community agreement/disagreement is a tad optimistic in both cases.

In D2 this is virtually an unused exploit, with very rare exceptions.

I think you are also overstating the "mess"; no one has been flamed or accused of cheating. We're discussing the legitimacy of exploiting a known bug in PBR matches.

[KBF-Butcher]

Slider ,SoV brought this issue earlier in this cycle but they found the majority of the fleets to disagree.They made a shuttle thread at the Dynaverse2 experience as well at the time the SGO4 server was running but no rule or any handshake was made there either.

It seems to me that the majority of the posts here agree to what i initially stated and it was the obvious reasonable and civilised thing to do.
Make a dam thread so the fleets will vote what should be done with this issue and include the outcome to the rules.
Sorry Kel i like u and i appreciate your time and efforts u put for this league,but i beleive u should take place here earlier or should i say put the things in their place and give an end to prevent this mesh(flaming,bickering and people calling others cowards and cheaters).

I think your assessment of community agreement/disagreement is a tad optimistic in both cases.

In D2 this is virtually an unused exploit, with very rare exceptions.

I think you are also overstating the "mess"; no one has been flamed or accused of cheating. We're discussing the legitimacy of exploiting a known bug in PBR matches.

In D2 if it was an unused exploit i dont think u were going to open a thread about it right?
As for this league u can find somewhere the thread where u guys first brought this issue and u ll see the majority of the fleet reps dissagreed.

Im not overstating anything.Go back in this thread and ull find accusations of cheating....

[762_XC]

Why don't you quote one for me? Oh that's right, because there are none. Stop being a drama queen.

And I started the thead HERE, specifically for PBR.

[TraumaTech]

personally,i don't care which way this vote goes but i still find it hard to feel sorry for the hydrans(perhaps because i have rarely flown them)despite playing sfc games i fail to see where this exploit/tactic invalidates hydrans.i have always got my ass handed to me by them,no matter what tactics i used,and for those that think it or will plain have the class   to just come out and say it"yes,i suck as a lyran".now that having been said,what i have read in these posts is,that hydrans are a one trick horse,please have pity on them and don't force thier fighters to fire an alpha strike on an admin. this seems strange to me.they can fly at speed 28 or higher on overload with some of thier ships,they work better than anyone else when half thier hulls are gone,thier fighters can fire as soon as they are launched,and if you kill 3 of them and leave 1,they can regenerate the whole squad,despite the fact i know of no carriers(real ones) that can build a new fighter.repair yes,but build new ones?? they have short and long range weapons.
                      i maybe showing my ignorance,but please explain to me,how dropping an admin  and causing  an alpha strike by their fighters,on that lone shuttle cripples them??

[Slider]

personally,i don't care which way this vote goes but i still find it hard to feel sorry for the hydrans(perhaps because i have rarely flown them)despite playing sfc games i fail to see where this exploit/tactic invalidates hydrans.i have always got my ass handed to me by them,no matter what tactics i used,and for those that think it or will plain have the class  to just come out and say it"yes,i suck as a lyran".now that having been said,what i have read in these posts is,that hydrans are a one trick horse,please have pity on them and don't force thier fighters to fire an alpha strike on an admin. this seems strange to me.they can fly at speed 28 or higher on overload with some of thier ships,they work better than anyone else when half thier hulls are gone,thier fighters can fire as soon as they are launched,and if you kill 3 of them and leave 1,they can regenerate the whole squad,despite the fact i know of no carriers(real ones) that can build a new fighter.repair yes,but build new ones?? they have short and long range weapons.
                      i maybe showing my ignorance,but please explain to me,how dropping an admin  and causing  an alpha strike by their fighters,on that lone shuttle cripples them??

Each race has its strength and weakness. Having played Lyran and Klingon nearly exclusively my while time in this game I feel for what Lyrans have to do to win. Its not easy when your main tactic in a game is to land an ESG flying fast with outboard dizzies off just to get to 31, dive in at the wrong time and boom, your toast. My time in RaK was a lesson in lethal strike timming developed by CrimsonKnight and Aragorn (two of the best users of strike timming ive ever witnessed)

Thats why Lyran pilots are considered some of the best to every play the game. Your questions are better served in another thread where the flight profile of Hydrans (and Lyrans) could be better analyzed and not confused with the topic at hand.

[762_XC]

Trauma, think of it as a bug which can cause your ESG to drop. You could win without it, but there's no reason you should have to fight an uphill battle because of a bug.

[Slider]

Actually, there WAS a probe bug that did that. It was used on RaK (Lyrans) on a handfull off occasions.

[TraumaTech]

Actually, there WAS a probe bug that did that. It was used on RaK (Lyrans) on a handfull off occasions.

not to mention when the first esg/helbore interaction came out,the hydrans had but to fire 1 helbore to take down 4 esg's,a bug with which the hydrans loved using AND encouraged it's use to new and old pilots,before that prob got fixed.

[Slider]

Actually, there WAS a probe bug that did that. It was used on RaK (Lyrans) on a handfull off occasions.

not to mention when the first esg/helbore interaction came out,the hydrans had but to fire 1 helbore to take down 4 esg's,a bug with which the hydrans loved using AND encouraged it's use to new and old pilots,before that prob got fixed.

So we are in agreement that this is a bad thing, that should be avoided if at all possible.

[TraumaTech]

Actually, there WAS a probe bug that did that. It was used on RaK (Lyrans) on a handfull off occasions.

not to mention when the first esg/helbore interaction came out,the hydrans had but to fire 1 helbore to take down 4 esg's,a bug with which the hydrans loved using AND encouraged it's use to new and old pilots,before that prob got fixed.

So we are in agreement that this is a bad thing, that should be avoided if at all possible.

           if we are talking about a bug as opposed to a tactic ..yes,we r in agreement     what i posted above is an obvious bug,because it is race specific.......now i maybe showing my obvious ignorance to hydrans and probably all other races,but do not all fighters  ai's act as stupid?? if so,it is not a race specific bug and only temporarily  deprives the hydrans of 1 tactic ;     brb  lol,my daughter is demanding my attention 



          KIDS!!! lol what a concept  !!!! the power of a 20 month old baby daughter to so command through sheer charm and a simple smile  if i could harness that type of power on one of my lyran ships,why you'd all just surrender to me as soon as i entered your sector ,but back to the topic at hand        ------>   i c this loss of a swarm ability as just a minor inconvience to the hydrans,however,if it is something that occurs just to hydrans,and not to the other fighter races,then i would agree,this is a bug,and a handshake or rule should be made,but if this effects all fighter races,then it becomes just a tactic to be used or not used, the way gorns,isc or roms would use fake plasma to get point defense phasers to fire.it is upto a pilot to turn that point defense phaser off,shouldn't the same be true of hydrans to hold onto their fighters until they get an opening to swarm them.not all pilots will think to deploy an admin. basically i don't believe they are that hindered with that exploit/tactic,but as i said,if it is race specific and not intended then i agree with you slider

[Ravok]

I think what this really boils down to is reality in the game.

 There is no way in heck a Hydran fighter pilot is going to ignore the CA trying to blow it away, Just because it launches a admin shuttle.

 Unless we are expected to believe every Hydran fighter pilot is a blithering idiot. And they build fighters just to throw away..

[Slider]

I think what it comes down to TT is that of all the races the one race your going to see fighters come out of Hydrans are the one. They are designed in all ways to use fighters as a part of their attack/defense capabilities.

Other races have fighters, but, they can easily put together ship cobinations and not have any fighters at all. This is not all that easy with Hydrans as many of their good ships rely on some fighter cover, BAR comes to mind from the EAW days.

That said, I also think that a Hornet/hellbore limit rule of some type might be be offered from the Hydrans. I completely understand what its like to face down 16 Hornet IIIs with 2x Hellbore shots. However that topic and its limits should be discussed by players who are better versed on another thread.

Either that or someone completely redesign the Hydrans so that their ships carry all the firepower they need to compete while avoiding nasty game bugs. Id be against that as you'd create another ISC caliber race, one that can fly and attack effectively at long med and short ranges effectively (something the other empire ships do not do well) and unbalance the game further.