Topic: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles

[762_XC]

Why would anyone want to win anything by deceit and cheating? Where is the challenge? where is the Honor in that?

 If anyone has to win anything by exploiting a obvious flaw in the game, their supposed victory is pointless, petty and self defeating.

 You can call it any name you please, to sooth your conscience. But its a cowards move, and cheating.

 You win nothing but the disgust, and scorn of other players. And bellittle your self.

 Now ask your self is all that worth winning a game?

 

[TarMinyatur]

What do people think of using Admin shuttles to draw out Plas-I? Is this an exploit/tactic? The fact that you can launch and recover your Admins before they get hit with the plasma is what I found to be dubious. At least if the Admins bit the dust, you could only do this so many times. We probably all think it's common sense that plasma(or drones) should follow Admins (or fighters) right into the shuttlebay. I know an ISC ship can engage erratics to prevent his Plas-I from being wasted on an insignificant manned shuttle but this isn't practical. Using Plas-I "defensive mode" saves one Plas-I per hardpoint but this doesn't prevent the pure waste of a 20 point warhead on something that is as non-threatening as a shuttle's Ph-3 that will nearly always fire at range 4+.

The ideal solution is to code Plas-I's "offline mode" to not discharge the torpedoes that are in stasis (i.e. fully charged), but this won't happen. Admin shuttles were pretty much banned in SFC1 without much fuss. Maybe you (I won't say "we" since I'm essentially living in the 1890's and should probably forget I ever played this damn game) can do it by handshake or rule. Good luck.

[KBF-Butcher]

Why would anyone want to win anything by deceit and cheating? Where is the challenge? where is the Honor in that?

 If anyone has to win anything by exploiting a obvious flaw in the game, their supposed victory is pointless, petty and self defeating.

 You can call it any name you please, to sooth your conscience. But its a cowards move, and cheating.

 You win nothing but the disgust, and scorn of other players. And bellittle your self.

 Now ask your self is all that worth winning a game?

U know im very disapointed about what is going on here!
I remember in any league i ever played calling people public that cheating was something forbidden and it was a written rule  that prohibits this .
Now ,suddenly after all these years i played this game i c a Hydran fleet whining about bug exploits and bring in the forum people  to accuse the league fleets/people that cheating and are cowards.Thats a really honorable thing yeah!!!

Now u really think we could do a handshake about this issue and say what?Dont use your shuttles in the PBR matches?
U beleive its a bug?Ok then so what we should do when the ISC ships had that known I-torp bug?Do a handshake and say when this happens dont chase the ISC ship and just shoot from distance?

U cant banned launching shuttles!
Its a part of this game.
Some may  drop a normal shuttle to fool a pursuing opponent into thinking it was a SS or SP.
People may drop normal shuttles to decrease the esg power.
People may drop normal shuttles if the game in the end is very close and ships have no shields so even the minimal damage the shuttles could do might proove decisive.


I suggest SoV will try to handle this as many Hydran fleets have done till now.

Now Ravok speaking for honor i say recall your insults to the fleets and people who in any league they ever played this was considered a legal tactic.
U have a different opinion u can freely state your arguements as this is a public open forum but not insult anyone trying to support your opinion.

p.s:U know i was wondering launching shuttles is illegal at Dynaverse servers?Or people that use this r cheating and r cowards too?

[Mutilator]

I know what we can do that will make the use of shuttles fair across the board, equal for all races...


NEBULA'S will be the only allowed map from now on... yeah that's the ticket yeah.. NEBULA'S

[Ravok]

My post was NOT directed at anyone in particular so if you feel beset upon i suggest you consult your conscience,.

 Your post is how ever directed at me and you need to knock it off I'm getting sick of this childish whining.
 So far your "arguments" have consisted of nasty come backs and half veiled insults and temper tantrums.

 If you want to play with the big kids. I suggest you grow up and get some manners. And get your facts strait before you start pointing fingers

[KBF-Butcher]

My post was NOT directed at anyone in particular so if you feel beset upon i suggest you consult your conscience,.

 Your post is how ever directed at me and you need to knock it off I'm getting sick of this childish whining.
 So far your "arguments" have consisted of nasty come backs and half veiled insults and temper tantrums.

 If you want to play with the big kids. I suggest you grow up and get some manners. And get your facts strait before you start pointing fingers

Your post was directed at anyone  ever used this tactic(propably all fleets here) which was  always legal in any league ever run ,calling them they cheat and that they r cowards.
Now if this is your way to recall it ,by insulting me and underestimating people s intelligence then u have to reconsider who needs to grow up and get some manners.

[KHH Jakle]

Two points to add to the conversation:

1) Fighters do not fire heavies at SS, SP or WW shuttles - only unconfigured admins.

2) Admins are very easy to spot in F11 view as they all have the "SH" tag.

This is important information that I was unaware of.

This brings a black and white decision to make admins illegal within the realm of possibility

[KHH Jakle]

Kel, Jakle.....Powers that be....

I am NOT a power that be.   

[KHH Jakle]

U cant banned launching shuttles!
Its a part of this game.
Some may  drop a normal shuttle to fool a pursuing opponent into thinking it was a SS or SP.
People may drop normal shuttles to decrease the esg power.
People may drop normal shuttles if the game in the end is very close and ships have no shields so even the minimal damage the shuttles could do might proove decisive.


I suggest SoV will try to handle this as many Hydran fleets have done till now.

Sure you can - it's been done before.
762 just posted why you can't mistake an Admin for anything but an admin
While using an admin to decrease ESG power is a valid tactic, it's net effect on the game is negligible enough relative to the unbalancing effect they have on fighters (and Hydrans in particular)
People do drop shuttles at the end of a match when ships are so crippled, every PhIII counts - but again, if nobody is allowed to do it, then the playing field is made level.  Use your probes. 

Since when has there been 'many' Hydran fleets?  GT is the only noteworthy one.  I suspect they would be none too please with the use of this exploit either.  Furthermore, several of SoV's members are long time Hydran players, so it's not like you're dealing with a bunch of Mirak trying on smelly costumes on a whim.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Two points to add to the conversation:

1) Fighters do not fire heavies at SS, SP or WW shuttles - only unconfigured admins.

2) Admins are very easy to spot in F11 view as they all have the "SH" tag.

This is important information that I was unaware of.

This brings a black and white decision to make admins illegal within the realm of possibility

I agree that the fighter AI unloading it's entire alpha into an admin shuttle is a bug. I disagree with banning all admin shuttle launches though, as there are valid tactics that employee them. This is why I had a basic issue trying to write a rule as to banning that particular use of admin shuttles, as I thought it would be to hard to make a cut an dry rule for it, since it has more to do with the intent of the launch than the launch intself. You know when you are launching an admin shuttle to avoid a fighter alpha, so a gentlemanly agreement not to use that tactic seemed like a good solution to me.

Unfortunately, those that have used this tactic in the past (and completely legally and being goodsports while doing it IMO) have felt that their honor is being questioned for it, which from me it is not. It was a perfectly valid tactic as I am sure most were unaware of the full effect or nature of the AI interaction bug (let's face it it is a bug, since fighters should be able to only fire enough of their weapons to kill the shuttle and not cripple a CA).

Now that everyone is clear on the nature of the fighter AI interaction the GDA intends not to use said tactic (we had in the past as well BTW) in PBR (I actually feel the tactic is a OK in D2 play due to BPV being basically unlimited). I hope other fleets will also follow this lead, but if they don't it really ain't that big a deal.

[KBF-Butcher]

U cant banned launching shuttles!
Its a part of this game.
Some may  drop a normal shuttle to fool a pursuing opponent into thinking it was a SS or SP.
People may drop normal shuttles to decrease the esg power.
People may drop normal shuttles if the game in the end is very close and ships have no shields so even the minimal damage the shuttles could do might proove decisive.


I suggest SoV will try to handle this as many Hydran fleets have done till now.

Sure you can - it's been done before.
762 just posted why you can't mistake an Admin for anything but an admin
While using an admin to decrease ESG power is a valid tactic, it's net effect on the game is negligible enough relative to the unbalancing effect they have on fighters (and Hydrans in particular)
People do drop shuttles at the end of a match when ships are so crippled, every PhIII counts - but again, if nobody is allowed to do it, then the playing field is made level. Use your probes.

Since when has there been 'many' Hydran fleets? GT is the only noteworthy one. I suspect they would be none too please with the use of this exploit either. Furthermore, several of SoV's members are long time Hydran players, so it's not like you're dealing with a bunch of Mirak trying on smelly costumes on a whim.

I was just pointed there other normal shuttle use we all do.Now if we should ban them all or not let the majority of the fleets decide so it can be a written rule.
GT might not be pleased but they never whined about it or any else hydran pilot i ever fought.

Two points to add to the conversation:

1) Fighters do not fire heavies at SS, SP or WW shuttles - only unconfigured admins.

2) Admins are very easy to spot in F11 view as they all have the "SH" tag.

This is important information that I was unaware of.

This brings a black and white decision to make admins illegal within the realm of possibility

I agree that the fighter AI unloading it's entire alpha into an admin shuttle is a bug. I disagree with banning all admin shuttle launches though, as there are valid tactics that employee them. This is why I had a basic issue trying to write a rule as to banning that particular use of admin shuttles, as I thought it would be to hard to make a cut an dry rule for it, since it has more to do with the intent of the launch than the launch intself. You know when you are launching an admin shuttle to avoid a fighter alpha, so a gentlemanly agreement not to use that tactic seemed like a good solution to me.

Unfortunately, those that have used this tactic in the past (and completely legally and being goodsports while doing it IMO) have felt that their honor is being questioned for it, which from me it is not. It was a perfectly valid tactic as I am sure most were unaware of the full effect or nature of the AI interaction bug (let's face it it is a bug, since fighters should be able to only fire enough of their weapons to kill the shuttle and not cripple a CA).

Now that everyone is clear on the nature of the fighter AI interaction the GDA intends not to use said tactic (we had in the past as well BTW) in PBR (I actually feel the tactic is a OK in D2 play due to BPV being basically unlimited). I hope other fleets will also follow this lead, but if they don't it really ain't that big a deal.

it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

[FPF-Bach]

Go try to get somebody else's goat Kroma as it won't work on me you can try to "incite debate" for your own amusement all you want however you won't get the satisfaction of seeing me crack.

To late, I am already amused and you have already cracked.

You are wrong here Kroma, if that were the case I'd be slinging personal insults by now.  You seem to assume to much.

[FPF-Bach]

it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

 

[Kroma BaSyl]

it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

 

Bach is just happy that he isn't the only one that confuses irrelevant with enforceable. <snicker>

[Slider]

OK let me cut off some of the Bach/Butcher Spin here.

A. No Hydran, brought this up. [ISC] Phaser did, and I mentioned that early and that he was a stand up guy for pointing it out.

B. This thread points out a flaw in the game, In the past we have used Handshakes not do things that were considered not part of the game as designed or within reasonable realistic concepts. ie, Handshake rule: No dropping admins shuttles on Hydrans to avoid taking Alphas from fighters, is pretty specific.  So hey drop all the Admins you want outside of that realm.

If we were all skillful enough to use, no h&r sensors, No Cav, no AD5, No Border running, No PPD tapping, one ship, then by now lets not pretend that we are n00bs and cant control this issue.

C. We are talking about from now on, any past use of this exploit, innocently or not is not the topic.

D. The community should act and do in whats it its best interest.  Everyone here has a responsibility for doing whats right and maintains a level playing field so that other players that play this game continue to come back. It up to you guys wheter this becomes an immediate rule or not. I think it merits it in the situation outlined above.

E. It seems some people here are incapable of not using this exploit, for their protection (and ours) I humbly suggest we immediatly vote on write this measure into the rules. Its unbalancing and unfair.

Slide

[Ravok]

OK let me cut off some of the Bach/Butcher Spin here.

A. No Hydran, brought this up. [ISC] Phaser did, and I mentioned that early and that he was a stand up guy for pointing it out.

B. This thread points out a flaw in the game, In the past we have used Handshakes not do things that were considered not part of the game as designed or within reasonable realistic concepts. ie, Handshake rule: No dropping admins shuttles on Hydrans to avoid taking Alphas from fighters, is pretty specific.  So hey drop all the Admins you want outside of that realm.

If we were all skillful enough to use, no h&r sensors, No Cav, no AD5, No Border running, No PPD tapping, one ship, then by now lets not pretend that we are n00bs and cant control this issue.

C. We are talking about from now on, any past use of this exploit, innocently or not is not the topic.

D. The community should act and do in whats it its best interest.  Everyone here has a responsibility for doing whats right and maintains a level playing field so that other players that play this game continue to come back. It up to you guys wheter this becomes an immediate rule or not. I think it merits it in the situation outlined above.

E. It seems some people here are incapable of not using this exploit, for their protection (and ours) I humbly suggest we immediatly vote on write this measure into the rules. Its unbalancing and unfair.

Slide

  +1 for you.

 And i agree . This is good for the whole comunity.
 And when you really think about it .Thats the most important thing of all.

[Kroma BaSyl]

If we were all skillful enough to use, no h&r sensors,

Curious, what is the issuewith h&r'ing sensors?

E. It seems some people here are incapable of not using this exploit, for their protection (and ours) I humbly suggest we immediatly vote on write this measure into the rules. Its unbalancing and unfair.

I would only support a rule that limited that specific use of admin shuttles, not a general rule against all uses.

[Slider]

If we were all skillful enough to use, no h&r sensors,

Curious, what is the issuewith h&r'ing sensors?

E. It seems some people here are incapable of not using this exploit, for their protection (and ours) I humbly suggest we immediatly vote on write this measure into the rules. Its unbalancing and unfair.

I would only support a rule that limited that specific use of admin shuttles, not a general rule against all uses.

Back during all of SFC1 H&R sensors was handshaked out, due to the fact that you could not repair the sensor. That is no longer the case but it is the oldest Handshake rule I could remember.

Kroma, would you mind drafting the rule? Since you reptililian types have such natural prose.

[GDA-Kel]

This from another post very early in the season...

2.  As a general principle, I will not propose rule changes in mid-season.  Mid-server changes have killed several good D2 servers due to bad feelings generated.  It would have to be a very serious cheat/bug in order for me to even consider it.  Even then, I would not make a change without a majority vote by the fleet reps.  If you have concerns/suggestions, anyone is free to post them here or you may PM me if you wish.   

3.  If it's PBR related...Jakle is the final authority.  The ruleset is his creation, and I will defer to him.  Referring to item #2 above, changes to PBR rules/matrices with respect to the current season would also require serious thought and a majority vote.  Discussing tweaks for next season is encouraged.

specifically found in this post. 

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163349394.0.html

I believe I have made myself clear in the past regarding mid-season rule changes. 

Having said that, I will put this to a majority vote IF we can decide on a very KISS-like simple rule.  No Admin shuttles period, perhaps.     

A fleet rep must put forth a clear, concise rule proposal and I will allow a majority vote.  I break all ties in case of 4-4 split.  I am not the GDA voting representative.  Kroma is.     

Finally, I am a firm believer in cut-and-dry rules whenever possible.  Be it a bug, exploit, whatever...there was no rule that addressed this issue in place prior to the start of the season.  Hence...in my mind it is a PERFECTLY LEGAL MANEUVER. 

Now, some may say the 'spirit of the rules' and 'good sportsmanship' have been reduced blah...blah...blah.  That's fine.  Handshake agreements are perfectly acceptable.  All anyone should expect  from your opponent is a match flown within the rules as written and a 'gg' afterwards.  That's it.  Anything more (from a handshake agreement or whatever) is a bonus to be appreciated for what it is...a bonus.

Absent of a specific rule, we should all thank those opponents that choose to fly in a manner above and beyond what the rules call for, in any situation (not just this specific issue).  Here is where I differ with many of you.  I choose NOT to call opponents cheap, cheats or worse for flying within the rules as written, and not how I personally think they should be written.   

Everyone go look at the rosters page.  You see 8 fleets with between 6-12 pilots per fleet.  72 players.  Not bad..you think.  The reality is that the same 3-5 pilots fly each fleets matches from week to week.  That's 32 players or less.  Not so good.  We have already officially lost one fleet for next season (if/when the season starts).  Getting into flame wars with each other is counter-productive.  If this community loses one fleet or one player, we all feel the loss at this point.  This thread started well enough but somewhere along the way it went south in a hurry. 

Let's all work together and resolve this in an orderly manner.  One of two things must happen ...

(1) Any fleet rep begins another thread with a specific rule change addressing this issue.  We will discuss the wording  and then vote.

(2) All fleets should expect to see this tactic/exploit/bug/whatever in battle UNLESS a handshake agreement is reached prior to the start of the match if a rule change is not adopted.

                 

[GDA-Kel]

C. We are talking about from now on, any past use of this exploit, innocently or not is not the topic.

D. The community should act and do in whats it its best interest.  Everyone here has a responsibility for doing whats right and maintains a level playing field so that other players that play this game continue to come back. It up to you guys wheter this becomes an immediate rule or not. I think it merits it in the situation outlined above.

I started my above post then I got called into a 2 hr meeting and this was posted in the interim.  I totally agree with these points. 

I feel the duties of league commissioner is to facilitate change, not to drive it.  A fleet rep will have to take the lead on this and I will make sure a vote is carried out...