Topic: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles

[Kroma BaSyl]

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

It is not irrelavent as long as one fleet adheres to the handshake, and it sounds like several do.

It certainly is irrelavent unless ALL the fleets agree to do this.  It's useless if some fleets agree and some don't.  That's just frickin common sense.

Wrong, it is relavent to those of us that feel it is a cheese tactic that exploits the fighter AI interactions. It is also relavent to anyone that fights GDA at least, as we will not use said cheesy tactic against our opponents, whether or not they choose to use it. You need to lookup the word irrelavent, I believe you are confusing it with mandatory or enforced.

[Mutilator]

This to me is no different then the tactic of a ship dropping admin shuttles to absorb damage from an ESG. Why drop shuttles out against a Lyran? There is no other reason than to lessen the damage from the ESG hit; maybe it gets a phaser three shot off. Same logic applies to drop an admin shuttle on incoming fighters to lessen the damage or at least distract them enough to get in a better offensive or defensive posture.

If you are going to limit shuttle use versus fighter I do not see how you can differ from an admin, SS or WW, any of those will distract an ESG from its primary target, meaning it will be destroyed and lessen the damage the ESG should do to its primary target. I am sure we are all honourable players I can hear it all now,

Player 1 “Honestly it was a SS I dropped sorry that you had to waste your point defense on it.”

Player 2 “BS since when can a SS fire a phaser?”

Perhaps some fleets do not use shuttles vs. fighters but the same fleets appear to have no issue launching all their shuttles at the start of a match vs. ESG fleets, sound tactic or anti ESG cheese? Use what you can to save your crew, perhaps like the plasma races start counting the shuttles before you send in the fighters for the kill.   

[KHH Jakle]

Actually, using a shuttle to soak up ESG damage is a classic SFB tactic.

It's not an exploit, as it's working exactly how it should - the 6 pt. admin shuttle will soak up 6 pts of ESG damage.

Dropping an admin to trigger enemy fighters to fire their wad on it is an exploit (it's still not a tactic).

Now, if you want to argue that how can you tell if a shuttle was an admin or actually a SS, WW or pre-blossom Scatter - now you're going somewhere.  That's a valid point.  And in a sense, firing their wad on a SP or SS is almost justifiable, as they are protecting the ships.  At the same time, the fact that they also blow their heavy weapons lessens the value of this.

Something I did want to mention on the flipside of this argument: I also think fighters should be regulated.  For example, the vast majority of Hydran fighters carrier by ships were Fusion armed, with maybe only a handful being Hellbore armed. 

Of course, regulation here is made problematic in that Fusion fighters tend to fire their fusions at useless ranges.  I am not familiar enough with how Hydran fighters work in game to say how much this can be controlled or not.  Further, the fact that Taldren fighters don't really fit the SFB mold, it's hard to say what fighters should be carried and my what....

Anyway, I can see both sides of the issue.  I just find it funny what people decide is a tactic and what is cheese (by any other name).

Of course, these are just my opinions

[Mutilator]

Posted by: KHH Jakle
Actually, using a shuttle to soak up ESG damage is a classic SFB tactic.

This is what I said, and I agree it is a valid tactic.

Posted by: Mutilator
This to me is no different then the tactic of a ship dropping admin shuttles to absorb damage from an ESG.

I agree people can turn a valid tactic into something to whine about pending on their own slant or perspective. I guess the game has a few "exploits" and as Slider says its all education, if people know about it they will decide what to do with that knowledge. To use the case of the map edge we all know about it and are cognizant to the fact that we are driving people to it or being pushed there ourselves. I do not believe there are many noobies in the PBR and most are probably well aware of the shuttle "tactic/exploit" call it what you will it is part of the game; fighter races will have to adapt to it and I am sure most already have. As a Lyran I use SS a lot especially when getting chased by a pack of fighters, to be called a cheat or telling me that is so "cheese" because I am trying to protect my ship or a wing is something I will have to live with  as long as my ships have shuttles and a mine to make a SS and I will use them I will have to live with the shame of using a tactic err was that gouda???

[KHH Jakle]

I think it's cheesy - but it's muddled enough that it probably has to be just accepted.  It really can't be cut and dried made a banned practice:

What if KHH is flying v Hydran, and we drop a SP, which in turn summons the full wrath of several flights of Hornets before it blossoms.  We were legitimately employing an offensive weapon versus the Hydrans, but it triggered this reaction instead and consequently ruins a decisive strike from the Hydrans

If launching admins to do this was banned, this might lead to much ill feeling, as we would say our SP launch was not meant to trigger it while the Hydran might say that we probably didn't launch a SP at all, and it was just a front to ruin their fighter attack by exploiting the fighter code.

So, as a manner of honor or fairness, some may not opt to exploit this bug, I can't see how any ban could effectively be instituted.  I don't know - anybody have any other ideas?

[Slider]

I think just not using admin shuttles is acceptable. We lived that way during SFC1 to avoid the lag they produced as well as with other Gentlemen's terms like not hitting and running the sensors. People agreed to those and they were of significantly less a concern as they affected everyone.

Given the limitations of the game Hydrans would have to, as already said, adapt to dealing with SP, SS and WWs.


So it goes back to "Lets not use ADMIN Shuttles to trigger the exploit"

SS shuttles have a distinctive forward launch like a slow drone and at range it wont matter since the Hydrans can recall spent fighters safely.
Admin shuttles move back then circle till told to do other wise.
A WW will be obvious
A SP goes forward and blooms however the delivery of this weopon well make it obvious as well, too far away and it wont matter, launch it to close and your ship will 9 out of 10 times already be hit by the swarm.

 Issue comes when people charge in launch the admins and over-run the now neutered aliens. If the admin is lauched after the overrun then nm this will never happen, lol.  Timing is very specific, and obvious.

[FPF-DieHard]

If launching admins to do this was banned, this might lead to much ill feeling, as we would say our SP launch was not meant to trigger it while the Hydran might say that we probably didn't launch a SP at all, and it was just a front to ruin their fighter attack by exploiting the fighter code.

Who cares if it gives cheesers bad feelings?   if it is wrong, make a rule against it.  You can't be afraid to offend smacktards, myself included  .

I've done this, I admit it, because it was LEGAL.  It should be made illegal but until that time, you can't fault anyone this.

[FPF-Bach]

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

It is not irrelavent as long as one fleet adheres to the handshake, and it sounds like several do.

It certainly is irrelevant unless ALL the fleets agree to do this.  It's useless if some fleets agree and some don't.  That's just frickin common sense.

Wrong, it is relevent to those of us that feel it is a cheese tactic that exploits the fighter AI interactions. It is also relavent to anyone that fights GDA at least, as we will not use said cheesy tactic against our opponents, whether or not they choose to use it. You need to lookup the word irrelavent, I believe you are confusing it with mandatory or enforced.

I'm quite familiar with the word irrelevant as this situation is to me unless it becomes a written rule.  That was my point that you have apparently been missing.

PS I didn't appreciate your derogatory intent by implying that I didn't know the meaning of a word I was using when you obviously didn't get my point.

[FPF-Bach]

Who cares if it gives cheesers bad feelings?   if it is wrong, make a rule against it.  You can't be afraid to offend smacktards, myself included  .

I've done this, I admit it, because it was LEGAL.  It should be made illegal but until that time, you can't fault anyone this.

Exactly!!!

[762_XC]

Two points to add to the conversation:

1) Fighters do not fire heavies at SS, SP or WW shuttles - only unconfigured admins.

2) Admins are very easy to spot in F11 view as they all have the "SH" tag.

[762_XC]

I've done this, I admit it, because it was LEGAL.  It should be made illegal but until that time, you can't fault anyone this.

Yes you can, especially if you admit it should be illegal.

People used to run the border to avoid fighters too, before that got banned by SFC2.net, and finally fixed by Taldren. This is no different - except we know that it will never get fixed.

[KBF-Butcher]

 
Currently there is no rule or ever was to prohibit this tactic.
This league has certain rules which we all have to follow and all fleets that begun playing this cycle were aware of  them.
This issue has been already discussed in another thread and all fleets stated their opinions.
If there is neccessary for a rule change this cant be happened in the middle of the cycle.
Anyone desires to bring up this issue again could open a thread and ask for all fleets to vote for it so it can be included to a possible future PBR league cycle.

[Slider]

Currently there is no rule or ever was to prohibit this tactic.
This league has certain rules which we all have to follow and all fleets that begun playing this cycle were aware of  them.
This issue has been already discussed in another thread and all fleets stated their opinions.
If there is neccessary for a rule change this cant be happened in the middle of the cycle.
Anyone desires to bring up this issue again could open a thread and ask for all fleets to vote for it so it can be included to a possible future PBR league cycle.

I disagree, this is a clear bug exploit not some routine problem with a rule,  and should be corrected immediatly or it practically invalitates the results of the matches as they apply to the Hydrans should people stoop to doing this.

 Considering what a small change this is I move to employ this rule immediatly to prevent any further use of it.
It would take less time to add this to the rules than it took to get to the logical conclusion that this should be prohibited.

It will not impare the outcome of games this cycle, it will in fact allow at least one team to compete on a level playing field. (Unless of course your entire tactic against SoV was to charge in Admin shuttles-a-blazing)

Kel, Jakle.....Powers that be....

Lets fix this one asap if not sooner.

[KBF-Butcher]

U dont get it do u?
This isnt gz!
If u think this is a bug exploit then u can suggest to your fleet(if u r in any fleet roster cause currently i dont see u anywhere) to vote for it ,if/when someone open a topic for all fleets to vote for this issue so it can be included to another possible cycle.
This is how this league works now.



edit:Im whinning? 
I m just trying to tell u how this league is running!Thats all.
I guess the topic is locked now ,anyway     

edit2:Someone is about to get banned     
 

[Slider]

Quit whinning Butch. (after all your not a cheeser are you?)

Or were you planning on Admin Shuttling your way past SoV.

The more negative Karma you give me the more you substantiate im on the right track.

Your right this isnt GZ. I have as much pull here as I did there, zip.

My post now needs to be agreed on by all  players not 3 or 4 guys trying to be all things to all people, Mob rules!  And it looks to me like 90% of them see this as an exploit too.

If I can get them to close that loop now before you guys do anything more with it, then all this will be well worth my time and meaningless effort.

[KBF-Butcher]

I m whinning? 

SoV should bring this issue before the Cycle begins.They flyed hydrans 10matches in cycle 3 why no comment then?
Everybody here play the matches following the rules.Rules everyone agree before the cycle begin!


p.s dont be so proud about your negative karma i just gave u -2 till now   

[Kroma BaSyl]

I'm quite familiar with the word irrelevant as this situation is to me unless it becomes a written rule.  That was my point that you have apparently been missing.

I have reread your original "irrelevant" posting and it still appears that you either didn't understand the meaning of the word within the context of your post or you were taking it upon yourself to tell others, whom would willingly agree to the handshake proposal, that their opinions were irrelevant, which they are not. Here is your derogatory post to Slider to help jog your memory:

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

I you require a written rule before you will adhere to such a proposal then Sliders "Question or Advisory" is simply irrelevant to you, not necessarily the rest of us.

PS I didn't appreciate your derogatory intent by implying that I didn't know the meaning of a word I was using when you obviously didn't get my point.

Pointing out your flawed logic or position hardly qualifies as derogatory, me thinks you need to lookup that word too. Ironically, whether or not you appreciate my intent when I challenged your presumption of telling us what is or is not relevant to us, was in fact the most irrelevant thing about this thread.

[FPF-Bach]

I'm quite familiar with the word irrelevant as this situation is to me unless it becomes a written rule.  That was my point that you have apparently been missing.

I have reread your original "irrelevant" posting and it still appears that you either didn't understand the meaning of the word within the context of your post or you were taking it upon yourself to tell others, whom would willingly agree to the handshake proposal, that their opinions were irrelevant, which they are not. Here is your derogatory post to Slider to help jog your memory:

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelevant until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

I you require a written rule before you will adhere to such a proposal then Sliders "Question or Advisory" is simply irrelevant to you, not necessarily the rest of us.

PS I didn't appreciate your derogatory intent by implying that I didn't know the meaning of a word I was using when you obviously didn't get my point.

Pointing out your flawed logic or position hardly qualifies as derogatory, me thinks you need to lookup that word too. Ironically, whether or not you appreciate my intent when I challenged your presumption of telling us what is or is not relevant to us, was in fact the most irrelevant thing about this thread.

Go try to get somebody else's goat Kroma as it won't work on me you can try to "incite debate" for your own amusement all you want however you won't get the satisfaction of seeing me crack.

This idea, proposal or whatever you might want to call it is IRRELEVANT TO ME because it's not a rule.  It's not only irrelevant to me but is to others as well I'd be willing to bet.  Stop trying at act as though you are smarter than everyone else by picking apart every tiny little detail.

My logic is hardly flawed because I could give rat's ass about launching an admin shuttle if I need to.

[Ravok]

Why would anyone want to win anything by deceit and cheating? Where is the challenge? where is the Honor in that?

 If anyone has to win anything by exploiting a obvious flaw in the game, their supposed victory is pointless, petty and self defeating.

 You can call it any name you please, to sooth your conscience. But its a cowards move, and cheating.

 You win nothing but the disgust, and scorn of other players. And bellittle your self.

 Now ask your self is all that worth winning a game?

[Kroma BaSyl]

Go try to get somebody else's goat Kroma as it won't work on me you can try to "incite debate" for your own amusement all you want however you won't get the satisfaction of seeing me crack.

To late, I am already amused and you have already cracked.

This idea, proposal or whatever you might want to call it is IRRELEVANT TO ME because it's not a rule.  It's not only irrelevant to me but is to others as well I'd be willing to bet. 

Then you should have said it was irrelevant to you, instead you came out calling it irrelevant to everyone that Slider was trying to discuss it with.

Stop trying at act as though you are smarter than everyone else by picking apart every tiny little detail.

I am only acting as though I am smarter than you, not everybody, and I only pick apart the details that are irrelevant. <snicker>

My logic is hardly flawed because I could give rat's ass about launching an admin shuttle if I need to.

Your logic is flawed because you presumed that just because you found a handshake agreement irrelevant you couldn't see how others might find it relevant.