Topic: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles  (Read 29649 times)

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Offline Slider

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Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« on: March 14, 2005, 11:45:55 am »
Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

We SHOULD by handshake agreement  not use admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]

;)

Your the best bud.

Slider
« Last Edit: March 14, 2005, 08:08:56 pm by KHH-Slider »

Offline Wraith 413

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2005, 11:51:20 am »
 I think that such a term is acceptable. But most PBR matches are usually flown with 3v3 people.

                             Wraith 413

Offline Slider

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2005, 11:56:14 am »
Aye yes, so both parties would avoid using this bug on the other party. Its probably the only time you ever see Admin Shuttle used in the game or at least 95% of the time.


Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2005, 01:05:01 pm »
This is already practiced by the GDA.
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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2005, 04:15:19 pm »
+1 karma for the GDA.

Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2005, 05:08:17 pm »
+1 karma for the GDA.

Actually I meant we were practiced at hitting the "D" key.  :P
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2005, 05:38:57 pm »
+1 karma for the GDA.

Actually I meant we were practiced at hitting the "D" key.  :P

Ooh, you can map this to a Hotkey?   Thank you for reminding me the next time we fight SOV  :rofl:
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Offline FPF-Bach

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2005, 05:52:01 pm »
Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

Can we handshake on not using admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]

;)

Your the best bud.

Slider

What's this we stuff?  Do you even play in this league anymore?
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Offline Slider

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2005, 07:30:57 pm »
Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

Can we handshake on not using admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]

;)

Your the best bud.

Slider

What's this we stuff?  Do you even play in this league anymore?

Darn it yea I used "we" let me edit that. Thanks!!

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2005, 07:32:54 pm »
I hate you Kroma.

Offline FPF-Bach

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2005, 07:40:02 pm »
Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

Can we handshake on not using admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]

;)

Your the best bud.

Slider

What's this we stuff?  Do you even play in this league anymore?

Darn it yea I used "we" let me edit that. Thanks!!

OK then to answer your first question.  NO it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.
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Offline Slider

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2005, 07:53:00 pm »
Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

Can we handshake on not using admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]

;)

Your the best bud.

Slider

What's this we stuff?  Do you even play in this league anymore?

Darn it yea I used "we" let me edit that. Thanks!!

OK then to answer your first question.  NO it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

Actually its not a question. Its an advisery of a bug being used against players under the guise of "tactic" (WEEEEE, look at how we neuter Hydrans with one tiny keystroke) Again, cheap and cheesey used only by those who lack the skill to win straight up.

**Hopefully Kel and the powers that currently be will correct this quickly before some fleet falls victim to it.  Im pretty sure FBF would never resort to that level of sneakyness Bach so dont your fret to much about my post, its not aimed at anyone and im pretty impressed that those who would have benifited the most from it ISC were the ones to point it out.

KHH-Slider

(Hey look Im in a fleet again, I guess that answers your second question, eh?)


Offline FPF-Bach

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2005, 10:23:07 pm »



Actually its not a question. Its an advisery of a bug being used against players under the guise of "tactic" (WEEEEE, look at how we neuter Hydrans with one tiny keystroke) Again, cheap and cheesey used only by those who lack the skill to win straight up.

**Hopefully Kel and the powers that currently be will correct this quickly before some fleet falls victim to it.  Im pretty sure FBF would never resort to that level of sneakyness Bach so dont your fret to much about my post, its not aimed at anyone and im pretty impressed that those who would have benifited the most from it ISC were the ones to point it out.

KHH-Slider

(Hey look Im in a fleet again, I guess that answers your second question, eh?)


Quote

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

Just to clarify it's the "FPF" not the "FBF" as you stated.  There was a fleet called the FBF at one point (Federation Blue Fleet).  I just don't wany any confusion.
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Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2005, 10:47:15 pm »


Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.


It is not irrelevant as long as one fleet adheres to the handshake, and it sounds like several do.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 08:38:31 pm by Kroma »
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Offline Slider

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2005, 11:54:28 pm »



Actually its not a question. Its an advisery of a bug being used against players under the guise of "tactic" (WEEEEE, look at how we neuter Hydrans with one tiny keystroke) Again, cheap and cheesey used only by those who lack the skill to win straight up.

**Hopefully Kel and the powers that currently be will correct this quickly before some fleet falls victim to it.  Im pretty sure FBF would never resort to that level of sneakyness Bach so dont your fret to much about my post, its not aimed at anyone and im pretty impressed that those who would have benifited the most from it ISC were the ones to point it out.

KHH-Slider

(Hey look Im in a fleet again, I guess that answers your second question, eh?)


Quote

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

Just to clarify it's the "FPF" not the "FBF" as you stated.  There was a fleet called the FBF at one point (Federation Blue Fleet).  I just don't wany any confusion.

Bach, im not going to get into an arguement with you. If you want to drop admin shuttles by all means please do. However informing people of this {whatever you want to calll it} is harmful to NO ONE. If anything its a plea on my part so that a segment of pilots are not taken advantage of unfairly.

The first step in such matters is awareness.  Well now your aware, I'm confident you'll not take advantage of the mighty Hydrans Idiot AI pilots. :)

I can guarantee all the negative Karma ive gotten over this thread are all of amphibious origins.

Your own actions in game will speak for the type of pilot you are, period. As my actions, shape who I am.



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Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2005, 08:44:33 am »
my concern with this ,is one person decides that  a tactic is cheesey and then posts about it.i c nothing any more wrong with  dropping an admin shuttle,than i see pushing some one off a border or into a asteroid.it's just a tactic.to also say that a "real pilot",would find another way to win is also unfair to those that use the tactic.could you not say,that hydrans or whoever could be a "real pilot" by  using there fighters better. Hydrans are suppose to be the kings of the knife fight,as such why do they need fighters,if they get in close with ships that can rip you a new one in one pass at all era's ,plus can take the most damage of any race and still fly. if need be,i'll drop the shuttle,simply because it IS  a tactic.saying hydrans have unfair advange is wrong IMHO.they have long and short range weapons as all races do,but they defenately have the best fighters,whether controllable or not.i believe all is the same for all races,<--on this last point,feel free to correct me if i am wrong.as for the rest, as far as i am concerned....drop away

Offline FPF-Bach

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2005, 09:04:42 am »


Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.


It is not irrelavent as long as one fleet adheres to the handshake, and it sounds like several do.

It certainly is irrelavent unless ALL the fleets agree to do this.  It's useless if some fleets agree and some don't.  That's just frickin common sense.
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Offline FPF-Bach

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2005, 09:08:07 am »



Actually its not a question. Its an advisery of a bug being used against players under the guise of "tactic" (WEEEEE, look at how we neuter Hydrans with one tiny keystroke) Again, cheap and cheesey used only by those who lack the skill to win straight up.

**Hopefully Kel and the powers that currently be will correct this quickly before some fleet falls victim to it.  Im pretty sure FBF would never resort to that level of sneakyness Bach so dont your fret to much about my post, its not aimed at anyone and im pretty impressed that those who would have benifited the most from it ISC were the ones to point it out.

KHH-Slider

(Hey look Im in a fleet again, I guess that answers your second question, eh?)


Quote

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

Just to clarify it's the "FPF" not the "FBF" as you stated.  There was a fleet called the FBF at one point (Federation Blue Fleet).  I just don't wany any confusion.

Bach, im not going to get into an arguement with you. If you want to drop admin shuttles by all means please do. However informing people of this {whatever you want to calll it} is harmful to NO ONE. If anything its a plea on my part so that a segment of pilots are not taken advantage of unfairly.

The first step in such matters is awareness.  Well now your aware, I'm confident you'll not take advantage of the mighty Hydrans Idiot AI pilots. :)

I can guarantee all the negative Karma ive gotten over this thread are all of amphibious origins.

Your own actions in game will speak for the type of pilot you are, period. As my actions, shape who I am.



KHH-Slider

~Bad thing about good advice is you cant give it away.
Anonymous




I'd be willing to venture a bet that every fleet that plays in this league is aware of this trick.  My point is however that if you want your "handshake idea" to be adehered to it must be made into a rule other wise you may end up with some fleets playing by the "handshake" and others that are not, how is that fair exactly?
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Offline FPF-Bach

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2005, 09:13:28 am »
my concern with this ,is one person decides that  a tactic is cheesey and then posts about it.i c nothing any more wrong with  dropping an admin shuttle,than i see pushing some one off a border or into a asteroid.it's just a tactic.to also say that a "real pilot",would find another way to win is also unfair to those that use the tactic.could you not say,that hydrans or whoever could be a "real pilot" by  using there fighters better. Hydrans are suppose to be the kings of the knife fight,as such why do they need fighters,if they get in close with ships that can rip you a new one in one pass at all era's ,plus can take the most damage of any race and still fly. if need be,i'll drop the shuttle,simply because it IS  a tactic.saying hydrans have unfair advange is wrong IMHO.they have long and short range weapons as all races do,but they defenately have the best fighters,whether controllable or not.i believe all is the same for all races,<--on this last point,feel free to correct me if i am wrong.as for the rest, as far as i am concerned....drop away

You bring up a good point here TT.  Can we have a handshake agreement that says no tractoring players to push them off the map...seems like in real space there is no map edge so how could you get rid of a player by pushing them off the map?  Anyway if you have 28 Hornets  or Wasps chasing you yoiu might think twice about dropping an admin shuttle.

Let's put it to a vote and make it a written rule or just go on as we have all cycle thus far.
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Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2005, 09:29:28 am »
I am ambivalent about this (I wouldn't advocate using this 'tactic', but it also doesn't effect me), but TT wrote some stuff that I'd like to respond to:

Shuttle dropping is exploiting existing software code.  I wouldn't call it a bug - but an EXPLOIT, which is why some might call it cheesy.  The fact that with the simple stroke of a button you invalidate a fighter swarm's alphastrike - at absolutely no cost of power, is what makes this so powerful.  

You can't call it a tactic.  Star Castling is a tactic.  Saber Dancing is a tactic.  The Knife Fighte is a tactic.  Plasma Ballet is a tactic.  Maneuvering your opponent for a Trac-n-pac is a tactic.  Using the Admin Drop is an exploit.  If you can't tell the difference, I think you're goofy.

Add to this it's race specific benefits and impacts:
Klinks, Feds and Mirak might be inclined to NOT use this EXPLOIT, as they would be sacrificing Scatter-Pack capability.  Additionaly, they have better than average active anti-fighter defenses.

Hydrans and Lyrans are probably less inclined to use this EXPLOIT, as they have fairly decent anti-fighter defenses.  However, they have little other use for their Admins, save as Weasels or Suicides.  If the right situation dictates (an opponent whose main thrust of firepower relies on it's fighters) they might use it.

Plasma races are very much inclined to use this EXPLOIT, as they typically have poor anti-fighter defenses and little additional use for their shuttles (Roms can Cloak to avoid seeking weapons and many ISC formations have the power curve to outrun seekers)

In terms of how this EXPLOIT impacts races, it overwhelmingly effects Hydrans, as only this race has ships that rely on fighters for a good portion of their firepower.

Most other races carriers retain the main armament of their non-carrier base class.  In action, I've see most carriers flown as direct combat ships with the fighters deployed only to deliver the coup de grace.  Under PBR, they are usually taken as an excuse to get escorts on the field.  The fighters are an afterthought.

With Hydrans, this is a totally different situation.  For their Fusion ships, their fighters are their offensive weapons.  This EXPLOIT neuters their offensive armament.  

Of course, they could always take nothing but Hellbore ships, but even some of those include fighters - and so a portion of their BPV is neutered when this EXPLOIT is used.


How is this different from pushing off the map:  

this is an omnipresent part of the game that effects EVERYBODY.  Everybody knows about it.  Everybody knows when they are being driven too the map edge.  Everybody has the abillity to make choices concerning this situation.  Sure, from a reality standpoint, it is goofy, but this doesn't negatively effect any race more than the others.  If it's that big of an issue, get everybody to sign up for Large Maps going forward.

How is this different from pushing somebody into roids:

I don't know about you, but this is a realistic part of the game for me.  What's more, when somebody turns the tables on their opponent and sneaks a trac on them and drives them into a roid - I think that is just brilliant.