Topic: Hand Shake Rule - UBERThreat Shuttles

[Slider]

Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

We SHOULD by handshake agreement  not use admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]



Your the best bud.

Slider

[Wraith 413]

 I think that such a term is acceptable. But most PBR matches are usually flown with 3v3 people.

                             Wraith 413

[Slider]

Aye yes, so both parties would avoid using this bug on the other party. Its probably the only time you ever see Admin Shuttle used in the game or at least 95% of the time.

[Kroma BaSyl]

This is already practiced by the GDA.

[762_XC]

+1 karma for the GDA.

[Kroma BaSyl]

+1 karma for the GDA.

Actually I meant we were practiced at hitting the "D" key. 

[FPF-DieHard]

+1 karma for the GDA.

Actually I meant we were practiced at hitting the "D" key. 

Ooh, you can map this to a Hotkey?   Thank you for reminding me the next time we fight SOV 

[FPF-Bach]

Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

Can we handshake on not using admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]



Your the best bud.

Slider

What's this we stuff?  Do you even play in this league anymore?

[Slider]

Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

Can we handshake on not using admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]



Your the best bud.

Slider

What's this we stuff?  Do you even play in this league anymore?

Darn it yea I used "we" let me edit that. Thanks!!

[762_XC]

I hate you Kroma.

[FPF-Bach]

Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

Can we handshake on not using admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]



Your the best bud.

Slider

What's this we stuff?  Do you even play in this league anymore?

Darn it yea I used "we" let me edit that. Thanks!!

OK then to answer your first question.  NO it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

[Slider]

Ive been doing some reading and some talking with players with respect to dropping an admin shuttle in order to force the AI controlling fighters to fire not only defensive weopons but Heavy weapons as well on the UBERTHREAT Shutles. While not in the stated rules at the moment I think its vital to balance that such a tactic not be used as it purposely triggers activity that is not realistic within intended tactic of the game and can be misused during games.

Can we handshake on not using admins (kind of like in the SFC1 days eh) for the remainer of the season then try to incorporate it into the rules. This would not incluede Suicide Shuttles or Wild Weasels.

[I'd like to thank ISC Phaser for being a stand up guy and giving me the skinny on this obvious bug turned tactic. No true Rocket Jocks would dare use such cheesyness.]



Your the best bud.

Slider

What's this we stuff?  Do you even play in this league anymore?

Darn it yea I used "we" let me edit that. Thanks!!

OK then to answer your first question.  NO it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

Actually its not a question. Its an advisery of a bug being used against players under the guise of "tactic" (WEEEEE, look at how we neuter Hydrans with one tiny keystroke) Again, cheap and cheesey used only by those who lack the skill to win straight up.

**Hopefully Kel and the powers that currently be will correct this quickly before some fleet falls victim to it.  Im pretty sure FBF would never resort to that level of sneakyness Bach so dont your fret to much about my post, its not aimed at anyone and im pretty impressed that those who would have benifited the most from it ISC were the ones to point it out.

KHH-Slider

(Hey look Im in a fleet again, I guess that answers your second question, eh?)

[FPF-Bach]

Actually its not a question. Its an advisery of a bug being used against players under the guise of "tactic" (WEEEEE, look at how we neuter Hydrans with one tiny keystroke) Again, cheap and cheesey used only by those who lack the skill to win straight up.

**Hopefully Kel and the powers that currently be will correct this quickly before some fleet falls victim to it.  Im pretty sure FBF would never resort to that level of sneakyness Bach so dont your fret to much about my post, its not aimed at anyone and im pretty impressed that those who would have benifited the most from it ISC were the ones to point it out.

KHH-Slider

(Hey look Im in a fleet again, I guess that answers your second question, eh?)

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

Just to clarify it's the "FPF" not the "FBF" as you stated.  There was a fleet called the FBF at one point (Federation Blue Fleet).  I just don't wany any confusion.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

It is not irrelevant as long as one fleet adheres to the handshake, and it sounds like several do.

[Slider]

Actually its not a question. Its an advisery of a bug being used against players under the guise of "tactic" (WEEEEE, look at how we neuter Hydrans with one tiny keystroke) Again, cheap and cheesey used only by those who lack the skill to win straight up.

**Hopefully Kel and the powers that currently be will correct this quickly before some fleet falls victim to it.  Im pretty sure FBF would never resort to that level of sneakyness Bach so dont your fret to much about my post, its not aimed at anyone and im pretty impressed that those who would have benifited the most from it ISC were the ones to point it out.

KHH-Slider

(Hey look Im in a fleet again, I guess that answers your second question, eh?)

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

Just to clarify it's the "FPF" not the "FBF" as you stated.  There was a fleet called the FBF at one point (Federation Blue Fleet).  I just don't wany any confusion.

Bach, im not going to get into an arguement with you. If you want to drop admin shuttles by all means please do. However informing people of this {whatever you want to calll it} is harmful to NO ONE. If anything its a plea on my part so that a segment of pilots are not taken advantage of unfairly.

The first step in such matters is awareness.  Well now your aware, I'm confident you'll not take advantage of the mighty Hydrans Idiot AI pilots.

I can guarantee all the negative Karma ive gotten over this thread are all of amphibious origins.

Your own actions in game will speak for the type of pilot you are, period. As my actions, shape who I am.



KHH-Slider

~Bad thing about good advice is you cant give it away.
Anonymous

[TraumaTech]

my concern with this ,is one person decides that  a tactic is cheesey and then posts about it.i c nothing any more wrong with  dropping an admin shuttle,than i see pushing some one off a border or into a asteroid.it's just a tactic.to also say that a "real pilot",would find another way to win is also unfair to those that use the tactic.could you not say,that hydrans or whoever could be a "real pilot" by  using there fighters better. Hydrans are suppose to be the kings of the knife fight,as such why do they need fighters,if they get in close with ships that can rip you a new one in one pass at all era's ,plus can take the most damage of any race and still fly. if need be,i'll drop the shuttle,simply because it IS  a tactic.saying hydrans have unfair advange is wrong IMHO.they have long and short range weapons as all races do,but they defenately have the best fighters,whether controllable or not.i believe all is the same for all races,<--on this last point,feel free to correct me if i am wrong.as for the rest, as far as i am concerned....drop away

[FPF-Bach]

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

It is not irrelavent as long as one fleet adheres to the handshake, and it sounds like several do.

It certainly is irrelavent unless ALL the fleets agree to do this.  It's useless if some fleets agree and some don't.  That's just frickin common sense.

[FPF-Bach]

Actually its not a question. Its an advisery of a bug being used against players under the guise of "tactic" (WEEEEE, look at how we neuter Hydrans with one tiny keystroke) Again, cheap and cheesey used only by those who lack the skill to win straight up.

**Hopefully Kel and the powers that currently be will correct this quickly before some fleet falls victim to it.  Im pretty sure FBF would never resort to that level of sneakyness Bach so dont your fret to much about my post, its not aimed at anyone and im pretty impressed that those who would have benifited the most from it ISC were the ones to point it out.

KHH-Slider

(Hey look Im in a fleet again, I guess that answers your second question, eh?)

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

Just to clarify it's the "FPF" not the "FBF" as you stated.  There was a fleet called the FBF at one point (Federation Blue Fleet).  I just don't wany any confusion.

Bach, im not going to get into an arguement with you. If you want to drop admin shuttles by all means please do. However informing people of this {whatever you want to calll it} is harmful to NO ONE. If anything its a plea on my part so that a segment of pilots are not taken advantage of unfairly.

The first step in such matters is awareness.  Well now your aware, I'm confident you'll not take advantage of the mighty Hydrans Idiot AI pilots.

I can guarantee all the negative Karma ive gotten over this thread are all of amphibious origins.

Your own actions in game will speak for the type of pilot you are, period. As my actions, shape who I am.



KHH-Slider

~Bad thing about good advice is you cant give it away.
Anonymous

I'd be willing to venture a bet that every fleet that plays in this league is aware of this trick.  My point is however that if you want your "handshake idea" to be adehered to it must be made into a rule other wise you may end up with some fleets playing by the "handshake" and others that are not, how is that fair exactly?

[FPF-Bach]

my concern with this ,is one person decides that  a tactic is cheesey and then posts about it.i c nothing any more wrong with  dropping an admin shuttle,than i see pushing some one off a border or into a asteroid.it's just a tactic.to also say that a "real pilot",would find another way to win is also unfair to those that use the tactic.could you not say,that hydrans or whoever could be a "real pilot" by  using there fighters better. Hydrans are suppose to be the kings of the knife fight,as such why do they need fighters,if they get in close with ships that can rip you a new one in one pass at all era's ,plus can take the most damage of any race and still fly. if need be,i'll drop the shuttle,simply because it IS  a tactic.saying hydrans have unfair advange is wrong IMHO.they have long and short range weapons as all races do,but they defenately have the best fighters,whether controllable or not.i believe all is the same for all races,<--on this last point,feel free to correct me if i am wrong.as for the rest, as far as i am concerned....drop away

You bring up a good point here TT.  Can we have a handshake agreement that says no tractoring players to push them off the map...seems like in real space there is no map edge so how could you get rid of a player by pushing them off the map?  Anyway if you have 28 Hornets  or Wasps chasing you yoiu might think twice about dropping an admin shuttle.

Let's put it to a vote and make it a written rule or just go on as we have all cycle thus far.

[KHH Jakle]

I am ambivalent about this (I wouldn't advocate using this 'tactic', but it also doesn't effect me), but TT wrote some stuff that I'd like to respond to:

Shuttle dropping is exploiting existing software code.  I wouldn't call it a bug - but an EXPLOIT, which is why some might call it cheesy.  The fact that with the simple stroke of a button you invalidate a fighter swarm's alphastrike - at absolutely no cost of power, is what makes this so powerful.  

You can't call it a tactic.  Star Castling is a tactic.  Saber Dancing is a tactic.  The Knife Fighte is a tactic.  Plasma Ballet is a tactic.  Maneuvering your opponent for a Trac-n-pac is a tactic.  Using the Admin Drop is an exploit.  If you can't tell the difference, I think you're goofy.

Add to this it's race specific benefits and impacts:
Klinks, Feds and Mirak might be inclined to NOT use this EXPLOIT, as they would be sacrificing Scatter-Pack capability.  Additionaly, they have better than average active anti-fighter defenses.

Hydrans and Lyrans are probably less inclined to use this EXPLOIT, as they have fairly decent anti-fighter defenses.  However, they have little other use for their Admins, save as Weasels or Suicides.  If the right situation dictates (an opponent whose main thrust of firepower relies on it's fighters) they might use it.

Plasma races are very much inclined to use this EXPLOIT, as they typically have poor anti-fighter defenses and little additional use for their shuttles (Roms can Cloak to avoid seeking weapons and many ISC formations have the power curve to outrun seekers)

In terms of how this EXPLOIT impacts races, it overwhelmingly effects Hydrans, as only this race has ships that rely on fighters for a good portion of their firepower.

Most other races carriers retain the main armament of their non-carrier base class.  In action, I've see most carriers flown as direct combat ships with the fighters deployed only to deliver the coup de grace.  Under PBR, they are usually taken as an excuse to get escorts on the field.  The fighters are an afterthought.

With Hydrans, this is a totally different situation.  For their Fusion ships, their fighters are their offensive weapons.  This EXPLOIT neuters their offensive armament.  

Of course, they could always take nothing but Hellbore ships, but even some of those include fighters - and so a portion of their BPV is neutered when this EXPLOIT is used.


How is this different from pushing off the map:  

this is an omnipresent part of the game that effects EVERYBODY.  Everybody knows about it.  Everybody knows when they are being driven too the map edge.  Everybody has the abillity to make choices concerning this situation.  Sure, from a reality standpoint, it is goofy, but this doesn't negatively effect any race more than the others.  If it's that big of an issue, get everybody to sign up for Large Maps going forward.

How is this different from pushing somebody into roids:

I don't know about you, but this is a realistic part of the game for me.  What's more, when somebody turns the tables on their opponent and sneaks a trac on them and drives them into a roid - I think that is just brilliant.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

It is not irrelavent as long as one fleet adheres to the handshake, and it sounds like several do.

It certainly is irrelavent unless ALL the fleets agree to do this.  It's useless if some fleets agree and some don't.  That's just frickin common sense.

Wrong, it is relavent to those of us that feel it is a cheese tactic that exploits the fighter AI interactions. It is also relavent to anyone that fights GDA at least, as we will not use said cheesy tactic against our opponents, whether or not they choose to use it. You need to lookup the word irrelavent, I believe you are confusing it with mandatory or enforced.

[Mutilator]

This to me is no different then the tactic of a ship dropping admin shuttles to absorb damage from an ESG. Why drop shuttles out against a Lyran? There is no other reason than to lessen the damage from the ESG hit; maybe it gets a phaser three shot off. Same logic applies to drop an admin shuttle on incoming fighters to lessen the damage or at least distract them enough to get in a better offensive or defensive posture.

If you are going to limit shuttle use versus fighter I do not see how you can differ from an admin, SS or WW, any of those will distract an ESG from its primary target, meaning it will be destroyed and lessen the damage the ESG should do to its primary target. I am sure we are all honourable players I can hear it all now,

Player 1 “Honestly it was a SS I dropped sorry that you had to waste your point defense on it.”

Player 2 “BS since when can a SS fire a phaser?”

Perhaps some fleets do not use shuttles vs. fighters but the same fleets appear to have no issue launching all their shuttles at the start of a match vs. ESG fleets, sound tactic or anti ESG cheese? Use what you can to save your crew, perhaps like the plasma races start counting the shuttles before you send in the fighters for the kill.   

[KHH Jakle]

Actually, using a shuttle to soak up ESG damage is a classic SFB tactic.

It's not an exploit, as it's working exactly how it should - the 6 pt. admin shuttle will soak up 6 pts of ESG damage.

Dropping an admin to trigger enemy fighters to fire their wad on it is an exploit (it's still not a tactic).

Now, if you want to argue that how can you tell if a shuttle was an admin or actually a SS, WW or pre-blossom Scatter - now you're going somewhere.  That's a valid point.  And in a sense, firing their wad on a SP or SS is almost justifiable, as they are protecting the ships.  At the same time, the fact that they also blow their heavy weapons lessens the value of this.

Something I did want to mention on the flipside of this argument: I also think fighters should be regulated.  For example, the vast majority of Hydran fighters carrier by ships were Fusion armed, with maybe only a handful being Hellbore armed. 

Of course, regulation here is made problematic in that Fusion fighters tend to fire their fusions at useless ranges.  I am not familiar enough with how Hydran fighters work in game to say how much this can be controlled or not.  Further, the fact that Taldren fighters don't really fit the SFB mold, it's hard to say what fighters should be carried and my what....

Anyway, I can see both sides of the issue.  I just find it funny what people decide is a tactic and what is cheese (by any other name).

Of course, these are just my opinions

[Mutilator]

Posted by: KHH Jakle
Actually, using a shuttle to soak up ESG damage is a classic SFB tactic.

This is what I said, and I agree it is a valid tactic.

Posted by: Mutilator
This to me is no different then the tactic of a ship dropping admin shuttles to absorb damage from an ESG.

I agree people can turn a valid tactic into something to whine about pending on their own slant or perspective. I guess the game has a few "exploits" and as Slider says its all education, if people know about it they will decide what to do with that knowledge. To use the case of the map edge we all know about it and are cognizant to the fact that we are driving people to it or being pushed there ourselves. I do not believe there are many noobies in the PBR and most are probably well aware of the shuttle "tactic/exploit" call it what you will it is part of the game; fighter races will have to adapt to it and I am sure most already have. As a Lyran I use SS a lot especially when getting chased by a pack of fighters, to be called a cheat or telling me that is so "cheese" because I am trying to protect my ship or a wing is something I will have to live with  as long as my ships have shuttles and a mine to make a SS and I will use them I will have to live with the shame of using a tactic err was that gouda???

[KHH Jakle]

I think it's cheesy - but it's muddled enough that it probably has to be just accepted.  It really can't be cut and dried made a banned practice:

What if KHH is flying v Hydran, and we drop a SP, which in turn summons the full wrath of several flights of Hornets before it blossoms.  We were legitimately employing an offensive weapon versus the Hydrans, but it triggered this reaction instead and consequently ruins a decisive strike from the Hydrans

If launching admins to do this was banned, this might lead to much ill feeling, as we would say our SP launch was not meant to trigger it while the Hydran might say that we probably didn't launch a SP at all, and it was just a front to ruin their fighter attack by exploiting the fighter code.

So, as a manner of honor or fairness, some may not opt to exploit this bug, I can't see how any ban could effectively be instituted.  I don't know - anybody have any other ideas?

[Slider]

I think just not using admin shuttles is acceptable. We lived that way during SFC1 to avoid the lag they produced as well as with other Gentlemen's terms like not hitting and running the sensors. People agreed to those and they were of significantly less a concern as they affected everyone.

Given the limitations of the game Hydrans would have to, as already said, adapt to dealing with SP, SS and WWs.


So it goes back to "Lets not use ADMIN Shuttles to trigger the exploit"

SS shuttles have a distinctive forward launch like a slow drone and at range it wont matter since the Hydrans can recall spent fighters safely.
Admin shuttles move back then circle till told to do other wise.
A WW will be obvious
A SP goes forward and blooms however the delivery of this weopon well make it obvious as well, too far away and it wont matter, launch it to close and your ship will 9 out of 10 times already be hit by the swarm.

 Issue comes when people charge in launch the admins and over-run the now neutered aliens. If the admin is lauched after the overrun then nm this will never happen, lol.  Timing is very specific, and obvious.

[FPF-DieHard]

If launching admins to do this was banned, this might lead to much ill feeling, as we would say our SP launch was not meant to trigger it while the Hydran might say that we probably didn't launch a SP at all, and it was just a front to ruin their fighter attack by exploiting the fighter code.

Who cares if it gives cheesers bad feelings?   if it is wrong, make a rule against it.  You can't be afraid to offend smacktards, myself included  .

I've done this, I admit it, because it was LEGAL.  It should be made illegal but until that time, you can't fault anyone this.

[FPF-Bach]

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

It is not irrelavent as long as one fleet adheres to the handshake, and it sounds like several do.

It certainly is irrelevant unless ALL the fleets agree to do this.  It's useless if some fleets agree and some don't.  That's just frickin common sense.

Wrong, it is relevent to those of us that feel it is a cheese tactic that exploits the fighter AI interactions. It is also relavent to anyone that fights GDA at least, as we will not use said cheesy tactic against our opponents, whether or not they choose to use it. You need to lookup the word irrelavent, I believe you are confusing it with mandatory or enforced.

I'm quite familiar with the word irrelevant as this situation is to me unless it becomes a written rule.  That was my point that you have apparently been missing.

PS I didn't appreciate your derogatory intent by implying that I didn't know the meaning of a word I was using when you obviously didn't get my point.

[FPF-Bach]

Who cares if it gives cheesers bad feelings?   if it is wrong, make a rule against it.  You can't be afraid to offend smacktards, myself included  .

I've done this, I admit it, because it was LEGAL.  It should be made illegal but until that time, you can't fault anyone this.

Exactly!!!

[762_XC]

Two points to add to the conversation:

1) Fighters do not fire heavies at SS, SP or WW shuttles - only unconfigured admins.

2) Admins are very easy to spot in F11 view as they all have the "SH" tag.

[762_XC]

I've done this, I admit it, because it was LEGAL.  It should be made illegal but until that time, you can't fault anyone this.

Yes you can, especially if you admit it should be illegal.

People used to run the border to avoid fighters too, before that got banned by SFC2.net, and finally fixed by Taldren. This is no different - except we know that it will never get fixed.

[KBF-Butcher]

 
Currently there is no rule or ever was to prohibit this tactic.
This league has certain rules which we all have to follow and all fleets that begun playing this cycle were aware of  them.
This issue has been already discussed in another thread and all fleets stated their opinions.
If there is neccessary for a rule change this cant be happened in the middle of the cycle.
Anyone desires to bring up this issue again could open a thread and ask for all fleets to vote for it so it can be included to a possible future PBR league cycle.

[Slider]

Currently there is no rule or ever was to prohibit this tactic.
This league has certain rules which we all have to follow and all fleets that begun playing this cycle were aware of  them.
This issue has been already discussed in another thread and all fleets stated their opinions.
If there is neccessary for a rule change this cant be happened in the middle of the cycle.
Anyone desires to bring up this issue again could open a thread and ask for all fleets to vote for it so it can be included to a possible future PBR league cycle.

I disagree, this is a clear bug exploit not some routine problem with a rule,  and should be corrected immediatly or it practically invalitates the results of the matches as they apply to the Hydrans should people stoop to doing this.

 Considering what a small change this is I move to employ this rule immediatly to prevent any further use of it.
It would take less time to add this to the rules than it took to get to the logical conclusion that this should be prohibited.

It will not impare the outcome of games this cycle, it will in fact allow at least one team to compete on a level playing field. (Unless of course your entire tactic against SoV was to charge in Admin shuttles-a-blazing)

Kel, Jakle.....Powers that be....

Lets fix this one asap if not sooner.

[KBF-Butcher]

U dont get it do u?
This isnt gz!
If u think this is a bug exploit then u can suggest to your fleet(if u r in any fleet roster cause currently i dont see u anywhere) to vote for it ,if/when someone open a topic for all fleets to vote for this issue so it can be included to another possible cycle.
This is how this league works now.



edit:Im whinning? 
I m just trying to tell u how this league is running!Thats all.
I guess the topic is locked now ,anyway     

edit2:Someone is about to get banned     
 

[Slider]

Quit whinning Butch. (after all your not a cheeser are you?)

Or were you planning on Admin Shuttling your way past SoV.

The more negative Karma you give me the more you substantiate im on the right track.

Your right this isnt GZ. I have as much pull here as I did there, zip.

My post now needs to be agreed on by all  players not 3 or 4 guys trying to be all things to all people, Mob rules!  And it looks to me like 90% of them see this as an exploit too.

If I can get them to close that loop now before you guys do anything more with it, then all this will be well worth my time and meaningless effort.

[KBF-Butcher]

I m whinning? 

SoV should bring this issue before the Cycle begins.They flyed hydrans 10matches in cycle 3 why no comment then?
Everybody here play the matches following the rules.Rules everyone agree before the cycle begin!


p.s dont be so proud about your negative karma i just gave u -2 till now   

[Kroma BaSyl]

I'm quite familiar with the word irrelevant as this situation is to me unless it becomes a written rule.  That was my point that you have apparently been missing.

I have reread your original "irrelevant" posting and it still appears that you either didn't understand the meaning of the word within the context of your post or you were taking it upon yourself to tell others, whom would willingly agree to the handshake proposal, that their opinions were irrelevant, which they are not. Here is your derogatory post to Slider to help jog your memory:

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelavent until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

I you require a written rule before you will adhere to such a proposal then Sliders "Question or Advisory" is simply irrelevant to you, not necessarily the rest of us.

PS I didn't appreciate your derogatory intent by implying that I didn't know the meaning of a word I was using when you obviously didn't get my point.

Pointing out your flawed logic or position hardly qualifies as derogatory, me thinks you need to lookup that word too. Ironically, whether or not you appreciate my intent when I challenged your presumption of telling us what is or is not relevant to us, was in fact the most irrelevant thing about this thread.

[FPF-Bach]

I'm quite familiar with the word irrelevant as this situation is to me unless it becomes a written rule.  That was my point that you have apparently been missing.

I have reread your original "irrelevant" posting and it still appears that you either didn't understand the meaning of the word within the context of your post or you were taking it upon yourself to tell others, whom would willingly agree to the handshake proposal, that their opinions were irrelevant, which they are not. Here is your derogatory post to Slider to help jog your memory:

Question or advisory....doesn't matter it's still irrelevant until it's an official written rule which will have to be voted on by all fleets before it's implementation.

I you require a written rule before you will adhere to such a proposal then Sliders "Question or Advisory" is simply irrelevant to you, not necessarily the rest of us.

PS I didn't appreciate your derogatory intent by implying that I didn't know the meaning of a word I was using when you obviously didn't get my point.

Pointing out your flawed logic or position hardly qualifies as derogatory, me thinks you need to lookup that word too. Ironically, whether or not you appreciate my intent when I challenged your presumption of telling us what is or is not relevant to us, was in fact the most irrelevant thing about this thread.

Go try to get somebody else's goat Kroma as it won't work on me you can try to "incite debate" for your own amusement all you want however you won't get the satisfaction of seeing me crack.

This idea, proposal or whatever you might want to call it is IRRELEVANT TO ME because it's not a rule.  It's not only irrelevant to me but is to others as well I'd be willing to bet.  Stop trying at act as though you are smarter than everyone else by picking apart every tiny little detail.

My logic is hardly flawed because I could give rat's ass about launching an admin shuttle if I need to.

[Ravok]

Why would anyone want to win anything by deceit and cheating? Where is the challenge? where is the Honor in that?

 If anyone has to win anything by exploiting a obvious flaw in the game, their supposed victory is pointless, petty and self defeating.

 You can call it any name you please, to sooth your conscience. But its a cowards move, and cheating.

 You win nothing but the disgust, and scorn of other players. And bellittle your self.

 Now ask your self is all that worth winning a game?

[Kroma BaSyl]

Go try to get somebody else's goat Kroma as it won't work on me you can try to "incite debate" for your own amusement all you want however you won't get the satisfaction of seeing me crack.

To late, I am already amused and you have already cracked.

This idea, proposal or whatever you might want to call it is IRRELEVANT TO ME because it's not a rule.  It's not only irrelevant to me but is to others as well I'd be willing to bet. 

Then you should have said it was irrelevant to you, instead you came out calling it irrelevant to everyone that Slider was trying to discuss it with.

Stop trying at act as though you are smarter than everyone else by picking apart every tiny little detail.

I am only acting as though I am smarter than you, not everybody, and I only pick apart the details that are irrelevant. <snicker>

My logic is hardly flawed because I could give rat's ass about launching an admin shuttle if I need to.

Your logic is flawed because you presumed that just because you found a handshake agreement irrelevant you couldn't see how others might find it relevant.

[762_XC]

Why would anyone want to win anything by deceit and cheating? Where is the challenge? where is the Honor in that?

 If anyone has to win anything by exploiting a obvious flaw in the game, their supposed victory is pointless, petty and self defeating.

 You can call it any name you please, to sooth your conscience. But its a cowards move, and cheating.

 You win nothing but the disgust, and scorn of other players. And bellittle your self.

 Now ask your self is all that worth winning a game?

 

[TarMinyatur]

What do people think of using Admin shuttles to draw out Plas-I? Is this an exploit/tactic? The fact that you can launch and recover your Admins before they get hit with the plasma is what I found to be dubious. At least if the Admins bit the dust, you could only do this so many times. We probably all think it's common sense that plasma(or drones) should follow Admins (or fighters) right into the shuttlebay. I know an ISC ship can engage erratics to prevent his Plas-I from being wasted on an insignificant manned shuttle but this isn't practical. Using Plas-I "defensive mode" saves one Plas-I per hardpoint but this doesn't prevent the pure waste of a 20 point warhead on something that is as non-threatening as a shuttle's Ph-3 that will nearly always fire at range 4+.

The ideal solution is to code Plas-I's "offline mode" to not discharge the torpedoes that are in stasis (i.e. fully charged), but this won't happen. Admin shuttles were pretty much banned in SFC1 without much fuss. Maybe you (I won't say "we" since I'm essentially living in the 1890's and should probably forget I ever played this damn game) can do it by handshake or rule. Good luck.

[KBF-Butcher]

Why would anyone want to win anything by deceit and cheating? Where is the challenge? where is the Honor in that?

 If anyone has to win anything by exploiting a obvious flaw in the game, their supposed victory is pointless, petty and self defeating.

 You can call it any name you please, to sooth your conscience. But its a cowards move, and cheating.

 You win nothing but the disgust, and scorn of other players. And bellittle your self.

 Now ask your self is all that worth winning a game?

U know im very disapointed about what is going on here!
I remember in any league i ever played calling people public that cheating was something forbidden and it was a written rule  that prohibits this .
Now ,suddenly after all these years i played this game i c a Hydran fleet whining about bug exploits and bring in the forum people  to accuse the league fleets/people that cheating and are cowards.Thats a really honorable thing yeah!!!

Now u really think we could do a handshake about this issue and say what?Dont use your shuttles in the PBR matches?
U beleive its a bug?Ok then so what we should do when the ISC ships had that known I-torp bug?Do a handshake and say when this happens dont chase the ISC ship and just shoot from distance?

U cant banned launching shuttles!
Its a part of this game.
Some may  drop a normal shuttle to fool a pursuing opponent into thinking it was a SS or SP.
People may drop normal shuttles to decrease the esg power.
People may drop normal shuttles if the game in the end is very close and ships have no shields so even the minimal damage the shuttles could do might proove decisive.


I suggest SoV will try to handle this as many Hydran fleets have done till now.

Now Ravok speaking for honor i say recall your insults to the fleets and people who in any league they ever played this was considered a legal tactic.
U have a different opinion u can freely state your arguements as this is a public open forum but not insult anyone trying to support your opinion.

p.s:U know i was wondering launching shuttles is illegal at Dynaverse servers?Or people that use this r cheating and r cowards too?

[Mutilator]

I know what we can do that will make the use of shuttles fair across the board, equal for all races...


NEBULA'S will be the only allowed map from now on... yeah that's the ticket yeah.. NEBULA'S

[Ravok]

My post was NOT directed at anyone in particular so if you feel beset upon i suggest you consult your conscience,.

 Your post is how ever directed at me and you need to knock it off I'm getting sick of this childish whining.
 So far your "arguments" have consisted of nasty come backs and half veiled insults and temper tantrums.

 If you want to play with the big kids. I suggest you grow up and get some manners. And get your facts strait before you start pointing fingers

[KBF-Butcher]

My post was NOT directed at anyone in particular so if you feel beset upon i suggest you consult your conscience,.

 Your post is how ever directed at me and you need to knock it off I'm getting sick of this childish whining.
 So far your "arguments" have consisted of nasty come backs and half veiled insults and temper tantrums.

 If you want to play with the big kids. I suggest you grow up and get some manners. And get your facts strait before you start pointing fingers

Your post was directed at anyone  ever used this tactic(propably all fleets here) which was  always legal in any league ever run ,calling them they cheat and that they r cowards.
Now if this is your way to recall it ,by insulting me and underestimating people s intelligence then u have to reconsider who needs to grow up and get some manners.

[KHH Jakle]

Two points to add to the conversation:

1) Fighters do not fire heavies at SS, SP or WW shuttles - only unconfigured admins.

2) Admins are very easy to spot in F11 view as they all have the "SH" tag.

This is important information that I was unaware of.

This brings a black and white decision to make admins illegal within the realm of possibility

[KHH Jakle]

Kel, Jakle.....Powers that be....

I am NOT a power that be.   

[KHH Jakle]

U cant banned launching shuttles!
Its a part of this game.
Some may  drop a normal shuttle to fool a pursuing opponent into thinking it was a SS or SP.
People may drop normal shuttles to decrease the esg power.
People may drop normal shuttles if the game in the end is very close and ships have no shields so even the minimal damage the shuttles could do might proove decisive.


I suggest SoV will try to handle this as many Hydran fleets have done till now.

Sure you can - it's been done before.
762 just posted why you can't mistake an Admin for anything but an admin
While using an admin to decrease ESG power is a valid tactic, it's net effect on the game is negligible enough relative to the unbalancing effect they have on fighters (and Hydrans in particular)
People do drop shuttles at the end of a match when ships are so crippled, every PhIII counts - but again, if nobody is allowed to do it, then the playing field is made level.  Use your probes. 

Since when has there been 'many' Hydran fleets?  GT is the only noteworthy one.  I suspect they would be none too please with the use of this exploit either.  Furthermore, several of SoV's members are long time Hydran players, so it's not like you're dealing with a bunch of Mirak trying on smelly costumes on a whim.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Two points to add to the conversation:

1) Fighters do not fire heavies at SS, SP or WW shuttles - only unconfigured admins.

2) Admins are very easy to spot in F11 view as they all have the "SH" tag.

This is important information that I was unaware of.

This brings a black and white decision to make admins illegal within the realm of possibility

I agree that the fighter AI unloading it's entire alpha into an admin shuttle is a bug. I disagree with banning all admin shuttle launches though, as there are valid tactics that employee them. This is why I had a basic issue trying to write a rule as to banning that particular use of admin shuttles, as I thought it would be to hard to make a cut an dry rule for it, since it has more to do with the intent of the launch than the launch intself. You know when you are launching an admin shuttle to avoid a fighter alpha, so a gentlemanly agreement not to use that tactic seemed like a good solution to me.

Unfortunately, those that have used this tactic in the past (and completely legally and being goodsports while doing it IMO) have felt that their honor is being questioned for it, which from me it is not. It was a perfectly valid tactic as I am sure most were unaware of the full effect or nature of the AI interaction bug (let's face it it is a bug, since fighters should be able to only fire enough of their weapons to kill the shuttle and not cripple a CA).

Now that everyone is clear on the nature of the fighter AI interaction the GDA intends not to use said tactic (we had in the past as well BTW) in PBR (I actually feel the tactic is a OK in D2 play due to BPV being basically unlimited). I hope other fleets will also follow this lead, but if they don't it really ain't that big a deal.

[KBF-Butcher]

U cant banned launching shuttles!
Its a part of this game.
Some may  drop a normal shuttle to fool a pursuing opponent into thinking it was a SS or SP.
People may drop normal shuttles to decrease the esg power.
People may drop normal shuttles if the game in the end is very close and ships have no shields so even the minimal damage the shuttles could do might proove decisive.


I suggest SoV will try to handle this as many Hydran fleets have done till now.

Sure you can - it's been done before.
762 just posted why you can't mistake an Admin for anything but an admin
While using an admin to decrease ESG power is a valid tactic, it's net effect on the game is negligible enough relative to the unbalancing effect they have on fighters (and Hydrans in particular)
People do drop shuttles at the end of a match when ships are so crippled, every PhIII counts - but again, if nobody is allowed to do it, then the playing field is made level. Use your probes.

Since when has there been 'many' Hydran fleets? GT is the only noteworthy one. I suspect they would be none too please with the use of this exploit either. Furthermore, several of SoV's members are long time Hydran players, so it's not like you're dealing with a bunch of Mirak trying on smelly costumes on a whim.

I was just pointed there other normal shuttle use we all do.Now if we should ban them all or not let the majority of the fleets decide so it can be a written rule.
GT might not be pleased but they never whined about it or any else hydran pilot i ever fought.

Two points to add to the conversation:

1) Fighters do not fire heavies at SS, SP or WW shuttles - only unconfigured admins.

2) Admins are very easy to spot in F11 view as they all have the "SH" tag.

This is important information that I was unaware of.

This brings a black and white decision to make admins illegal within the realm of possibility

I agree that the fighter AI unloading it's entire alpha into an admin shuttle is a bug. I disagree with banning all admin shuttle launches though, as there are valid tactics that employee them. This is why I had a basic issue trying to write a rule as to banning that particular use of admin shuttles, as I thought it would be to hard to make a cut an dry rule for it, since it has more to do with the intent of the launch than the launch intself. You know when you are launching an admin shuttle to avoid a fighter alpha, so a gentlemanly agreement not to use that tactic seemed like a good solution to me.

Unfortunately, those that have used this tactic in the past (and completely legally and being goodsports while doing it IMO) have felt that their honor is being questioned for it, which from me it is not. It was a perfectly valid tactic as I am sure most were unaware of the full effect or nature of the AI interaction bug (let's face it it is a bug, since fighters should be able to only fire enough of their weapons to kill the shuttle and not cripple a CA).

Now that everyone is clear on the nature of the fighter AI interaction the GDA intends not to use said tactic (we had in the past as well BTW) in PBR (I actually feel the tactic is a OK in D2 play due to BPV being basically unlimited). I hope other fleets will also follow this lead, but if they don't it really ain't that big a deal.

it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

[FPF-Bach]

Go try to get somebody else's goat Kroma as it won't work on me you can try to "incite debate" for your own amusement all you want however you won't get the satisfaction of seeing me crack.

To late, I am already amused and you have already cracked.

You are wrong here Kroma, if that were the case I'd be slinging personal insults by now.  You seem to assume to much.

[FPF-Bach]

it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

 

[Kroma BaSyl]

it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

 

Bach is just happy that he isn't the only one that confuses irrelevant with enforceable. <snicker>

[Slider]

OK let me cut off some of the Bach/Butcher Spin here.

A. No Hydran, brought this up. [ISC] Phaser did, and I mentioned that early and that he was a stand up guy for pointing it out.

B. This thread points out a flaw in the game, In the past we have used Handshakes not do things that were considered not part of the game as designed or within reasonable realistic concepts. ie, Handshake rule: No dropping admins shuttles on Hydrans to avoid taking Alphas from fighters, is pretty specific.  So hey drop all the Admins you want outside of that realm.

If we were all skillful enough to use, no h&r sensors, No Cav, no AD5, No Border running, No PPD tapping, one ship, then by now lets not pretend that we are n00bs and cant control this issue.

C. We are talking about from now on, any past use of this exploit, innocently or not is not the topic.

D. The community should act and do in whats it its best interest.  Everyone here has a responsibility for doing whats right and maintains a level playing field so that other players that play this game continue to come back. It up to you guys wheter this becomes an immediate rule or not. I think it merits it in the situation outlined above.

E. It seems some people here are incapable of not using this exploit, for their protection (and ours) I humbly suggest we immediatly vote on write this measure into the rules. Its unbalancing and unfair.

Slide

[Ravok]

OK let me cut off some of the Bach/Butcher Spin here.

A. No Hydran, brought this up. [ISC] Phaser did, and I mentioned that early and that he was a stand up guy for pointing it out.

B. This thread points out a flaw in the game, In the past we have used Handshakes not do things that were considered not part of the game as designed or within reasonable realistic concepts. ie, Handshake rule: No dropping admins shuttles on Hydrans to avoid taking Alphas from fighters, is pretty specific.  So hey drop all the Admins you want outside of that realm.

If we were all skillful enough to use, no h&r sensors, No Cav, no AD5, No Border running, No PPD tapping, one ship, then by now lets not pretend that we are n00bs and cant control this issue.

C. We are talking about from now on, any past use of this exploit, innocently or not is not the topic.

D. The community should act and do in whats it its best interest.  Everyone here has a responsibility for doing whats right and maintains a level playing field so that other players that play this game continue to come back. It up to you guys wheter this becomes an immediate rule or not. I think it merits it in the situation outlined above.

E. It seems some people here are incapable of not using this exploit, for their protection (and ours) I humbly suggest we immediatly vote on write this measure into the rules. Its unbalancing and unfair.

Slide

  +1 for you.

 And i agree . This is good for the whole comunity.
 And when you really think about it .Thats the most important thing of all.

[Kroma BaSyl]

If we were all skillful enough to use, no h&r sensors,

Curious, what is the issuewith h&r'ing sensors?

E. It seems some people here are incapable of not using this exploit, for their protection (and ours) I humbly suggest we immediatly vote on write this measure into the rules. Its unbalancing and unfair.

I would only support a rule that limited that specific use of admin shuttles, not a general rule against all uses.

[Slider]

If we were all skillful enough to use, no h&r sensors,

Curious, what is the issuewith h&r'ing sensors?

E. It seems some people here are incapable of not using this exploit, for their protection (and ours) I humbly suggest we immediatly vote on write this measure into the rules. Its unbalancing and unfair.

I would only support a rule that limited that specific use of admin shuttles, not a general rule against all uses.

Back during all of SFC1 H&R sensors was handshaked out, due to the fact that you could not repair the sensor. That is no longer the case but it is the oldest Handshake rule I could remember.

Kroma, would you mind drafting the rule? Since you reptililian types have such natural prose.

[GDA-Kel]

This from another post very early in the season...

2.  As a general principle, I will not propose rule changes in mid-season.  Mid-server changes have killed several good D2 servers due to bad feelings generated.  It would have to be a very serious cheat/bug in order for me to even consider it.  Even then, I would not make a change without a majority vote by the fleet reps.  If you have concerns/suggestions, anyone is free to post them here or you may PM me if you wish.   

3.  If it's PBR related...Jakle is the final authority.  The ruleset is his creation, and I will defer to him.  Referring to item #2 above, changes to PBR rules/matrices with respect to the current season would also require serious thought and a majority vote.  Discussing tweaks for next season is encouraged.

specifically found in this post. 

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163349394.0.html

I believe I have made myself clear in the past regarding mid-season rule changes. 

Having said that, I will put this to a majority vote IF we can decide on a very KISS-like simple rule.  No Admin shuttles period, perhaps.     

A fleet rep must put forth a clear, concise rule proposal and I will allow a majority vote.  I break all ties in case of 4-4 split.  I am not the GDA voting representative.  Kroma is.     

Finally, I am a firm believer in cut-and-dry rules whenever possible.  Be it a bug, exploit, whatever...there was no rule that addressed this issue in place prior to the start of the season.  Hence...in my mind it is a PERFECTLY LEGAL MANEUVER. 

Now, some may say the 'spirit of the rules' and 'good sportsmanship' have been reduced blah...blah...blah.  That's fine.  Handshake agreements are perfectly acceptable.  All anyone should expect  from your opponent is a match flown within the rules as written and a 'gg' afterwards.  That's it.  Anything more (from a handshake agreement or whatever) is a bonus to be appreciated for what it is...a bonus.

Absent of a specific rule, we should all thank those opponents that choose to fly in a manner above and beyond what the rules call for, in any situation (not just this specific issue).  Here is where I differ with many of you.  I choose NOT to call opponents cheap, cheats or worse for flying within the rules as written, and not how I personally think they should be written.   

Everyone go look at the rosters page.  You see 8 fleets with between 6-12 pilots per fleet.  72 players.  Not bad..you think.  The reality is that the same 3-5 pilots fly each fleets matches from week to week.  That's 32 players or less.  Not so good.  We have already officially lost one fleet for next season (if/when the season starts).  Getting into flame wars with each other is counter-productive.  If this community loses one fleet or one player, we all feel the loss at this point.  This thread started well enough but somewhere along the way it went south in a hurry. 

Let's all work together and resolve this in an orderly manner.  One of two things must happen ...

(1) Any fleet rep begins another thread with a specific rule change addressing this issue.  We will discuss the wording  and then vote.

(2) All fleets should expect to see this tactic/exploit/bug/whatever in battle UNLESS a handshake agreement is reached prior to the start of the match if a rule change is not adopted.

                 

[GDA-Kel]

C. We are talking about from now on, any past use of this exploit, innocently or not is not the topic.

D. The community should act and do in whats it its best interest.  Everyone here has a responsibility for doing whats right and maintains a level playing field so that other players that play this game continue to come back. It up to you guys wheter this becomes an immediate rule or not. I think it merits it in the situation outlined above.

I started my above post then I got called into a 2 hr meeting and this was posted in the interim.  I totally agree with these points. 

I feel the duties of league commissioner is to facilitate change, not to drive it.  A fleet rep will have to take the lead on this and I will make sure a vote is carried out...

   

[Corbomite]

How do you write a rule that covers a very specific instance that can have so many ambiguous instances? The most ironic I can think of is to launch an Admin to soak up the ESG of a Lyran PFE and have it alpha the shuttle instead. Did I do it to have it eat the ESG or the alpha? If you make the rule too broad, you restrict legitimate tactics, if you make it too specific that opens up the situation to possible disagreements.

[Kroma BaSyl]

 I will put this to a majority vote IF we can decide on a very KISS-like simple rule.  No Admin shuttles period, perhaps.     

               

I completely agree with your post except this part. A rule that broad would be unexceptable to me where a rule that limited the specific tactical use of shuttles would be exceptable. However, that said I believe it impossible to create a truely cut and dry rule to outlaw the specific use of admin shuttles, and thus we would have to live with a rule that had a certian amount of interpretation of spirite to it. Now I agree that this isn't a perfect situation, but let's face it, there isn't a single person here that doesn't understand what is meant by "not launching admin shuttles to distract fighters". I believe we are all adult enough and good enough sports to adhere to a less cut and dry rule that need to be interpreted a little.

All that being said, I wouldn't want to see any rule put in place until the next cycle.

[FPF-DieHard]

I believe we are all adult enough and good enough sports to adhere to a less cut and dry rule that need to be interpreted a little.

 

We have people arguing that this is a legit tactic.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I believe we are all adult enough and good enough sports to adhere to a less cut and dry rule that need to be interpreted a little.

 

We have people arguing that this is a legit tactic.

Correct, but my point is that all understand exactly what said tactic is, and therefore should have no problem understanding the spirite of a less cut and dry rule.

[Slider]

I agree under normal conditions a handshake agreement should be more than enough.



Slider

"When you have the facts, argue the facts.
When you have the law, argue the law.
When you have neither, argue in circles and call people names."


*for my next investigative report: Klingons using steroids to enhance their game.

Geraldo Slider

[Mutilator]

Is it a matter of timing for those that think it’s a exploit or a tactic? Where is the line?

What about the case of using Admin shuttles for extra point defense? One side is a Klingon or Mirak carrier group, the other side decided to launch admin shuttles for extra point defense and conduct a crawling range attack. The admins shuttles are out long before the fighters from the carrier group get to attack distance. Would the crawling defensive postured fleet have to recall them because the carrier group wants to send in their fighters to launch more drones, the very thing the non-carrier fleet tactically deployed them for in the first place?

I cannot see how this can be regulated where it will not take away a tool from fleets tactical options. For FSD we would entertain a rule that would have a total ban on admin shuttles across the board for all uses period. 

Right now our official position is and unlikely will it change that there is no need to restrict shuttles period.

When this current cycle is over should there be changes to the rules FSD will support the majority rule.

[KBF-Butcher]

Slider ,SoV brought this issue earlier in this cycle but they found the majority of the fleets to disagree.They made a shuttle thread at the Dynaverse2 experience as well at the time the SGO4 server was running but no rule or any handshake was made there either.

It seems to me that the majority of the posts here agree to what i initially stated and it was the obvious reasonable and civilised thing to do.
Make a dam thread so the fleets will vote what should be done with this issue and include the outcome to the rules.
Sorry Kel i like u and i appreciate your time and efforts u put for this league,but i beleive u should take place here earlier or should i say put the things in their place and give an end to prevent this mesh(flaming,bickering and people calling others cowards and cheaters).

[FPF-Bach]

it must be a written rule or its irrelavent.

 

Bach is just happy that he isn't the only one that confuses irrelevant with enforceable. <snicker>

 

[762_XC]

Slider ,SoV brought this issue earlier in this cycle but they found the majority of the fleets to disagree.They made a shuttle thread at the Dynaverse2 experience as well at the time the SGO4 server was running but no rule or any handshake was made there either.

It seems to me that the majority of the posts here agree to what i initially stated and it was the obvious reasonable and civilised thing to do.
Make a dam thread so the fleets will vote what should be done with this issue and include the outcome to the rules.
Sorry Kel i like u and i appreciate your time and efforts u put for this league,but i beleive u should take place here earlier or should i say put the things in their place and give an end to prevent this mesh(flaming,bickering and people calling others cowards and cheaters).

I think your assessment of community agreement/disagreement is a tad optimistic in both cases.

In D2 this is virtually an unused exploit, with very rare exceptions.

I think you are also overstating the "mess"; no one has been flamed or accused of cheating. We're discussing the legitimacy of exploiting a known bug in PBR matches.

[KBF-Butcher]

Slider ,SoV brought this issue earlier in this cycle but they found the majority of the fleets to disagree.They made a shuttle thread at the Dynaverse2 experience as well at the time the SGO4 server was running but no rule or any handshake was made there either.

It seems to me that the majority of the posts here agree to what i initially stated and it was the obvious reasonable and civilised thing to do.
Make a dam thread so the fleets will vote what should be done with this issue and include the outcome to the rules.
Sorry Kel i like u and i appreciate your time and efforts u put for this league,but i beleive u should take place here earlier or should i say put the things in their place and give an end to prevent this mesh(flaming,bickering and people calling others cowards and cheaters).

I think your assessment of community agreement/disagreement is a tad optimistic in both cases.

In D2 this is virtually an unused exploit, with very rare exceptions.

I think you are also overstating the "mess"; no one has been flamed or accused of cheating. We're discussing the legitimacy of exploiting a known bug in PBR matches.

In D2 if it was an unused exploit i dont think u were going to open a thread about it right?
As for this league u can find somewhere the thread where u guys first brought this issue and u ll see the majority of the fleet reps dissagreed.

Im not overstating anything.Go back in this thread and ull find accusations of cheating....

[762_XC]

Why don't you quote one for me? Oh that's right, because there are none. Stop being a drama queen.

And I started the thead HERE, specifically for PBR.

[TraumaTech]

personally,i don't care which way this vote goes but i still find it hard to feel sorry for the hydrans(perhaps because i have rarely flown them)despite playing sfc games i fail to see where this exploit/tactic invalidates hydrans.i have always got my ass handed to me by them,no matter what tactics i used,and for those that think it or will plain have the class   to just come out and say it"yes,i suck as a lyran".now that having been said,what i have read in these posts is,that hydrans are a one trick horse,please have pity on them and don't force thier fighters to fire an alpha strike on an admin. this seems strange to me.they can fly at speed 28 or higher on overload with some of thier ships,they work better than anyone else when half thier hulls are gone,thier fighters can fire as soon as they are launched,and if you kill 3 of them and leave 1,they can regenerate the whole squad,despite the fact i know of no carriers(real ones) that can build a new fighter.repair yes,but build new ones?? they have short and long range weapons.
                      i maybe showing my ignorance,but please explain to me,how dropping an admin  and causing  an alpha strike by their fighters,on that lone shuttle cripples them??

[Slider]

personally,i don't care which way this vote goes but i still find it hard to feel sorry for the hydrans(perhaps because i have rarely flown them)despite playing sfc games i fail to see where this exploit/tactic invalidates hydrans.i have always got my ass handed to me by them,no matter what tactics i used,and for those that think it or will plain have the class  to just come out and say it"yes,i suck as a lyran".now that having been said,what i have read in these posts is,that hydrans are a one trick horse,please have pity on them and don't force thier fighters to fire an alpha strike on an admin. this seems strange to me.they can fly at speed 28 or higher on overload with some of thier ships,they work better than anyone else when half thier hulls are gone,thier fighters can fire as soon as they are launched,and if you kill 3 of them and leave 1,they can regenerate the whole squad,despite the fact i know of no carriers(real ones) that can build a new fighter.repair yes,but build new ones?? they have short and long range weapons.
                      i maybe showing my ignorance,but please explain to me,how dropping an admin  and causing  an alpha strike by their fighters,on that lone shuttle cripples them??

Each race has its strength and weakness. Having played Lyran and Klingon nearly exclusively my while time in this game I feel for what Lyrans have to do to win. Its not easy when your main tactic in a game is to land an ESG flying fast with outboard dizzies off just to get to 31, dive in at the wrong time and boom, your toast. My time in RaK was a lesson in lethal strike timming developed by CrimsonKnight and Aragorn (two of the best users of strike timming ive ever witnessed)

Thats why Lyran pilots are considered some of the best to every play the game. Your questions are better served in another thread where the flight profile of Hydrans (and Lyrans) could be better analyzed and not confused with the topic at hand.

[762_XC]

Trauma, think of it as a bug which can cause your ESG to drop. You could win without it, but there's no reason you should have to fight an uphill battle because of a bug.

[Slider]

Actually, there WAS a probe bug that did that. It was used on RaK (Lyrans) on a handfull off occasions.

[TraumaTech]

Actually, there WAS a probe bug that did that. It was used on RaK (Lyrans) on a handfull off occasions.

not to mention when the first esg/helbore interaction came out,the hydrans had but to fire 1 helbore to take down 4 esg's,a bug with which the hydrans loved using AND encouraged it's use to new and old pilots,before that prob got fixed.

[Slider]

Actually, there WAS a probe bug that did that. It was used on RaK (Lyrans) on a handfull off occasions.

not to mention when the first esg/helbore interaction came out,the hydrans had but to fire 1 helbore to take down 4 esg's,a bug with which the hydrans loved using AND encouraged it's use to new and old pilots,before that prob got fixed.

So we are in agreement that this is a bad thing, that should be avoided if at all possible.

[TraumaTech]

Actually, there WAS a probe bug that did that. It was used on RaK (Lyrans) on a handfull off occasions.

not to mention when the first esg/helbore interaction came out,the hydrans had but to fire 1 helbore to take down 4 esg's,a bug with which the hydrans loved using AND encouraged it's use to new and old pilots,before that prob got fixed.

So we are in agreement that this is a bad thing, that should be avoided if at all possible.

           if we are talking about a bug as opposed to a tactic ..yes,we r in agreement     what i posted above is an obvious bug,because it is race specific.......now i maybe showing my obvious ignorance to hydrans and probably all other races,but do not all fighters  ai's act as stupid?? if so,it is not a race specific bug and only temporarily  deprives the hydrans of 1 tactic ;     brb  lol,my daughter is demanding my attention 



          KIDS!!! lol what a concept  !!!! the power of a 20 month old baby daughter to so command through sheer charm and a simple smile  if i could harness that type of power on one of my lyran ships,why you'd all just surrender to me as soon as i entered your sector ,but back to the topic at hand        ------>   i c this loss of a swarm ability as just a minor inconvience to the hydrans,however,if it is something that occurs just to hydrans,and not to the other fighter races,then i would agree,this is a bug,and a handshake or rule should be made,but if this effects all fighter races,then it becomes just a tactic to be used or not used, the way gorns,isc or roms would use fake plasma to get point defense phasers to fire.it is upto a pilot to turn that point defense phaser off,shouldn't the same be true of hydrans to hold onto their fighters until they get an opening to swarm them.not all pilots will think to deploy an admin. basically i don't believe they are that hindered with that exploit/tactic,but as i said,if it is race specific and not intended then i agree with you slider

[Ravok]

I think what this really boils down to is reality in the game.

 There is no way in heck a Hydran fighter pilot is going to ignore the CA trying to blow it away, Just because it launches a admin shuttle.

 Unless we are expected to believe every Hydran fighter pilot is a blithering idiot. And they build fighters just to throw away..

[Slider]

I think what it comes down to TT is that of all the races the one race your going to see fighters come out of Hydrans are the one. They are designed in all ways to use fighters as a part of their attack/defense capabilities.

Other races have fighters, but, they can easily put together ship cobinations and not have any fighters at all. This is not all that easy with Hydrans as many of their good ships rely on some fighter cover, BAR comes to mind from the EAW days.

That said, I also think that a Hornet/hellbore limit rule of some type might be be offered from the Hydrans. I completely understand what its like to face down 16 Hornet IIIs with 2x Hellbore shots. However that topic and its limits should be discussed by players who are better versed on another thread.

Either that or someone completely redesign the Hydrans so that their ships carry all the firepower they need to compete while avoiding nasty game bugs. Id be against that as you'd create another ISC caliber race, one that can fly and attack effectively at long med and short ranges effectively (something the other empire ships do not do well) and unbalance the game further.

[KBF-Butcher]

Why don't you quote one for me? Oh that's right, because there are none. Stop being a drama queen.

And I started the thead HERE, specifically for PBR.

U and your wings being a drama queen here in PBR forum,in the Dyna2Server Forum in the  SGO4 Server Irc chat , in any place u r whining and complaining for that so called bug exploit.
Why dont u request fleets to vote for that thing and put an end at this drama.
This is just what i m writing here.
I personally dont care about it.If this will make u feel more competitive so be it ,i have np with that just follow the procedure and im sure every pilot will respect the outcome


p.s what do u mean "there r none"?

[[ISC]GreyWolf]

Why would anyone want to win anything by deceit and cheating? Where is the challenge? where is the Honor in that?

 If anyone has to win anything by exploiting a obvious flaw in the game, their supposed victory is pointless, petty and self defeating.

 You can call it any name you please, to sooth your conscience. But its a cowards move, and cheating.

 You win nothing but the disgust, and scorn of other players. And bellittle your self.

 Now ask your self is all that worth winning a game?

762_XC were you saying something about there are no posts of accusations about cheating?

Much is being said about launching an admin shuttle against a group of fighters being an exploit, hence a cheat.

How much damage does this cause the fighters?  Hmmm? 0? Hmmm?

How often does this "tactic" work?  I have attempted this 3 times.  Each time either the shuttle was ignored or it was destroyed by a single phaser shot.  If you drop a shuttle and it is closer to the fighters than you, the fighters should shoot it down.  I have spent phasers many times on a launched shuttle as well.

Not that I care if this becomes rule or not, I attempted it 3 times and it didn't help by more than a single phaser shot.  Which is about the same damage as the ESG loses.

Now, if i were to drop a shuttle and go 1/2 way across the map.  Then you send fighters after me and they went for my shuttle instead, then yes I would say you have a valid point.  Until then, you will have to deal with the admin shuttle the same way plasma races deal with Wild Weasels...

My feelings are that someone is upset because they were beaten.  How often I have felt the same, I couldn't count.  But this is a game.  The best part is that after you lose, you can play again in a few minutes.  Get on with your life and when you come up with a real solution to a real problem, please post it.

My vote is that this is a valid tactic.  Feel free to make a rule against it anyway (if it is wanted) as it won't change the way I fly either way.

[Slider]

Why would anyone want to win anything by deceit and cheating? Where is the challenge? where is the Honor in that?

 If anyone has to win anything by exploiting a obvious flaw in the game, their supposed victory is pointless, petty and self defeating.

 You can call it any name you please, to sooth your conscience. But its a cowards move, and cheating.

 You win nothing but the disgust, and scorn of other players. And bellittle your self.

 Now ask your self is all that worth winning a game?

762_XC were you saying something about there are no posts of accusations about cheating?

Much is being said about launching an admin shuttle against a group of fighters being an exploit, hence a cheat.

How much damage does this cause the fighters?  Hmmm? 0? Hmmm?

How often does this "tactic" work?  I have attempted this 3 times.  Each time either the shuttle was ignored or it was destroyed by a single phaser shot.  If you drop a shuttle and it is closer to the fighters than you, the fighters should shoot it down.  I have spent phasers many times on a launched shuttle as well.

Not that I care if this becomes rule or not, I attempted it 3 times and it didn't help by more than a single phaser shot.  Which is about the same damage as the ESG loses.

Now, if i were to drop a shuttle and go 1/2 way across the map.  Then you send fighters after me and they went for my shuttle instead, then yes I would say you have a valid point.  Until then, you will have to deal with the admin shuttle the same way plasma races deal with Wild Weasels...

My feelings are that someone is upset because they were beaten.  How often I have felt the same, I couldn't count.  But this is a game.  The best part is that after you lose, you can play again in a few minutes.  Get on with your life and when you come up with a real solution to a real problem, please post it.

My vote is that this is a valid tactic.  Feel free to make a rule against it anyway (if it is wanted) as it won't change the way I fly either way.

Dear [ISCheese]

Can you not read???

ISC Phaser brought up the bug in a conversation. Why dont you go argue with him.

Better yet why dont you fly Lyran for a cycle and show me what wonderful pilots you really are. Oh you cant, youve got nothing to prove, leaving for Starwars....ah ok.

The phrase should be "no B@lls" not "nothing to prove" (giving myself -Karma for that but it just fits)

Oh its not a big deal this little admin shuttle....then dont use it, stop making Circle Arguements on why its a "valid tactic" Oh it doesnt hurt the fighter (slaps head) Damn well it doesnt hurt the fighters wow, damn thats logic, how stupid of me.....then why do you do it why the justifications for it. As ISC admins do nothing for you...... do they?



Answer this one question, why do you launch admin shuttles at Hydran fighter squadrans if you say they do nothing to the fighters?

If you can answer that with a logical answer I'll close the thread (and stop laughing).

No run along and go complain to Phaser for being honest.

LOL, doesnt hurt the fighters.......classic......0 damage to the fighters....ROFL


Slider

"When you have the facts, argue the facts.
When you have the law, argue the law.
When you have neither, argue in circles and call people names."

[[ISC]GreyWolf]

Which is about the same damage as the ESG loses.

Answer this one question, why do you launch admin shuttles at Hydran fighter squadrans if you they do nothing to the fighters?

If you can answer that with a logical answer I'll close the thread (and stop laughing).

Slider

Hello....anyone...echo...
Lessen damage done by fighters by at least one phaser shot...
Hello...anyone...echo...
Ask SoV, last cycle I launched one on up and coming fighter squads...I believe it took a single phG from a fighter at range 0.

And by the way Slider, I'd love to fly Lyran next cycle.  I might just to prove a point, if my fleet agrees.

[Slider]

Umm even you dont believe that.

BTW id pay good money to see you guys do that. I reakon you might, Ive heard enough about you to know. However there are members in your fleet that will shriek at the thought if flying Lyrans.

Again You's shut me up for good if you guys won a cycle in non ISC ships Hell Id send money if you did it as Lyrans.

[[ISC]GreyWolf]

How much money you talking about there, Slider?  hehe

Well its a tactic, albiet stupid ai fighters can be fooled...try recalling them sometime, when they don't want to come back....lol
And the SoV deal is legit..don't remember who was flying SoV but I could probably find the rec of my admin getting the ax with a single phaser shot.  Soon afterward I was riding some debris, you might see me if you were to zoom in...

Of all the races I've flown, Lyran is probably the most difficult to win with, but it can be very fun too, you know fun as in a game...

[Kroma BaSyl]

And the SoV deal is legit..don't remember who was flying SoV but I could probably find the rec of my admin getting the ax with a single phaser shot.  Soon afterward I was riding some debris, you might see me if you were to zoom in...

That is probably because they had already fired their heavies, and this hardly invalidates the fact that it is a bug just because one time the bug didn't manifest. The fact remains that the admin shuttle was released to take advantage of this interaction even if it didn't workout that way that time.

[[ISC]GreyWolf]

OK ya got me Kroma...its a bug that doesn't work all the time.
And they had not fired their Hellbores yet as that was why I was counting pieces of my ship floating toward the blackhole...sheesh it was a mid era game so they were only H2s (like 14 of em)...

[KBF-Butcher]

Better yet why dont you fly Lyran for a cycle and show me what wonderful pilots you really are. Oh you cant, youve got nothing to prove, leaving for Starwars....ah ok.

The phrase should be "no B@lls" not "nothing to prove" (giving myself -Karma for that but it just fits)

fly Lyran for a cycle and show u what wonderful pilots we really are? wtf is this?
I was wondering whats this place has become to a sliders playground?
If that so let me play ,too then.


Hey whats the matter with you and ISC?Is this some kind of an unrecoverable trauma ISC caused u in the past and u r behaving like this.
Do u really want me to remind u last time u started those crap again about ISC fleet what was the outcome for u?
Yes was when u were challenging Iantheace to a 1v1 fight at GZ forums    and found me in gsa  instead , having my L-CWLPp(speaking for Lyran  )  beat your G-CC+.You didnt do a single internal to my ship and ofcourse u didnt ask for a rematch telling excuses about how rusty u ve been   
Ok what was the case back then did the cat eat your tongue and now u r coming back with a new one?
If that so let me take my hatchet again

[Slider]

Me in a Gorn??? LOL.

First off dude, I flew Lyran for RaK, I would take just any Lyran over a Gorn ship at any bpv inlcuding 200. Why on earth would I fly a Gorn CC.

Ian's been gone for years.....and yea I loved to fight that cocky bastard, he was fun to play with. I played against him alot 2 v 2 he with GhostDog and I with Aragorn. (ahhh memories)

Second, I ask for rematches like its going out of style. Even back in the hay day of ladder matches. Ive played hudreds of games against arguably the best this game had to offer, and yes I lost some and I won some. Thats the nature of this game.

Letting someone beat me one game so they can overlord me for the rest of creation is not my style. No one that knows me would think it my character to tuck tail and run after 1 game.

Third When did this imaginary game occur I played 5 games last year all as Hydran before I buried my disk in a flower planter in the back yard of my house. Prior to that the year before We were Mirak.

Dream on.

You know what time to Ignore you again.

Have a great life.

 

[KBF-Butcher]

Me in a Gorn??? LOL.

Dream on.

Ok time to Ignore you again.

Have a great life.

 

  what u calling me a liar??
U were definitely flying a G-CC+ i remember it like yesterday and it was 150mid game.I also remember when game started u typed that my ship was what u intended to fly but u changed your mind in the end.
If u didnt fly Gorn what did u then?Or we didnt even ever played then?
This is really very disappointing of u that u dont have the balls even to speak the truth.
Thats it not any honor to u  so u dont worth any more of my attention.


edit:Since u need details like u dont remember i can give u:
It was when a bickering started between ISC and KHH in the GZ forums about a match that KHH after game 1 left and said the other games will be played another time.I also remember Jakle who was running the league was away on vacations then .You then started flaming again to ISC and Ian and u challenged him to a fight with a post like: I m logging in to GSA right now come and find me gimp"
Ian wasnt in gsa at that moment but i was and u asked me to find him.He wasnt in the messenger either so i offered u to fight me.
U accepted and we played 150mid.U took the G-CC+ and i took the L-CWLPp.Game lasted  around 10 min.Your s torps couldnt hit me as u tryed to chase me but  my mines and my overloaded middle dizzys were slowly causing internals to your CC+ till i catch ya unloaded of S torps and finish u with my esg.
And yes after that game u didnt want a rematch and claimed u r rusty.
Sorry man i dont know how good pilots u ever fough and i dont care but its obvious to me u r just have a big mouth  and nothing more. 
Now cough the crap and at least be honest.

[Slider]

Ok yea your right, there you happy. 

Now, lets get something straight, this thread is about a bug exploit not about your dream state activities.

[Begin past drama]yea I flamed you guys back then, I couldnt fathom how a bunch of guys playing the cheesiest race in the league have the gaul spam forums about how great pilots they are. Thats why I challenged you guys to a straight up ISC vs ISC battle between you and MY TEAM =SoV= (not KHH). So it wasnt about the ships, its about the arrogant attitude and poor sporstmanship you showed after playing FSD if I remember right hence my Lyran reference (why dont you fly Lyran). This is stupid already. [End Past Drama]

I dont like you, You dont like me. I'll stay out of your threads, you stay out of mine. I'll play with my friends, you play with yours.

Have a great life.

You can have the last word then I'll lock the thread as its outlived its usefulness yet served its purpose.



 

[KBF-Butcher]

[Begin past drama]. Thats why I challenged you guys to a straight up ISC vs ISC battle between you and MY TEAM =SoV= (not KHH). So it wasnt about the ships, its about the arrogant attitude and poor sporstmanship you showed after playing FSD if I remember right hence my Lyran reference (why dont you fly Lyran). This is stupid already. [End Past Drama]

U challenged KEG fleet back then after we had the bickering with FSD  not ISC vs ISC but u ISC and we Lyran and we gladly accepted.Last post of mine in the challenged thread u opened was asking u to schedule it but i got no responce from then.
Now as for the bad sportmanship only I showed to FSD i admit it and i apologised to everyone back then.Dont confuse ISC fleet though has nothing to do with this.
See the difference with u and me is i have the balls to admit when i m wrong and i always speak the truth.However u are full of lies and sh*t.

Better yet why dont you fly Lyran for a cycle and show me what wonderful pilots you really are. Oh you cant, youve got nothing to prove, leaving for Starwars....ah ok.

The phrase should be "no B@lls" not "nothing to prove" (giving myself -Karma for that but it just fits)

Yeah lets get something straight, this thread is about a bug exploit not about your personal issues with the ISC fleet.

[762_XC]

Enough guys, keep the thread on topic please.

[Slider]

OK he got the last word in. Mut has the new topic. This thread is closed. 

Slider