Topic: All you Titan designers, take note: Pocket Books "Design the Titan" contest

[Chris Johnson]

It kinda depends on "our expectation of the name Titan"

It also depends on how we envision Star Trek, and how open we are to its ideals, be it original or Ira/Berman-ized.

I only respectfully ask that we be careful not to swing the pendulum not too far to the other extreme either.  There are some that do tend to want to class the Federation as weak and anemic ..  etc ..  "passive" if you will.  Personally I believe that while NOT EVERY ship would be armed to the teeth ..  I do believe that after the encouters with the Borg and the Dominion War ...  there would be noticeable improvements in the ability of the Fed ships to defend themselves.

I thought of the Federation as strong, but not war-like.  Galaxy-class Starships were powerful at their early days (and still are, without a doubt), but were not overdone as they were ships of exploration.  That does not make 'em weak.  There will always be bigger, more-powerful threats out there in the universe, but we don't have to give up the original ideals of Starfleet in order to defend the Federation and arm starships to the teeth all the time. 

I guess we can continue debating using our views/opinions in the debate, or we can simply disagree and get on with it.  I'm not as much of a fan of the Trek that popularized DS9, VGR, and ENT that caused many fan-made warships that seemed better suited for a TNG-themed SFB game than Star Trek.

Buzz, I much rather preferred the concept that you and Azel developed for it, the sort of neo-Ambassador-class, a cost-effective successor to the Galaxy.  That would have been preferable to the idea outined for the contest.

I don't think a class of Starship that had been replaced in main roles could suceed its successor.  And the Ambassador-class, new or old, is 526 meters, much longer (and perhaps bigger in general) than the Luna-class.  If the sketch you mentioned is a "Neo-Ambassador", it might have to be reworked to be smaller if it's going to be a design entry for the Titan.  I believe a class like the Luna-class could be more resource-efficient (I'm still in compliance with Gene's vision.  That includes some issues concerning money that he addressed from time to time) than the Galaxy-class, but considering her description, she could be a tough explorer, but not as long-range capable an explorer as the Galaxy-class might be.

[OlBuzzard]

Ya know Chris .. bud ..  I'm trying despirately to meet ya at least hwlf way ..   but you continue to twist my words into things I have not implicated ..  so I will make this statement .. and move on.  (I am after all still at work)
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you miss q'd this ...

It kinda depends on "our expectation of the name Titan"

It also depends on how we envision Star Trek, and how open we are to its ideals, be it original or Ira/Berman-ized.

I reject the idea that interpriting things differently that what you might see as being slanted, misnamed, cannonized,or  "labeled" so as to reduce to the absured.

The idea that everything out side of "Cannon Trek" or more specfically as you have illuded to more than once ..  out side of "Roddenberry"  ( a term for which you are obviously interpriting to an extreme) is also rejected ..  Seems like we have this discussion from time to time.  I will not go over this again.  It is this overly zealous idealism that often squelches the possibilities of genuine productivity and or creative thinking.

For the record ..  I also TOTALLY reject the idea that the TITAN  MUST BE a monsterous ship capable of taking on a Borg cube single handedly  ( yes this is over statement for emphasis ... and should be taken for what it is worth).

Also I had nothing to do with the Azel design that included the "Ambassadorial" flavor to it.  Azel and WZ did both designs taht most accept as the better designs.

in conclusion...

1.  No I'm not mad Chris ..  but you seem preoccupied with finding fault with anything I say ..  dunno why .. unless it as as the afore stated that you seem  overly focused on your definition and intrepritation of the world of Trek ..   attempting to label the rest of us ...  ( sorry to be so out spoken ...  but seem to leave me little choice)

2.  RB ..   take it easy bud ..  if they are making the Titan smaller than what we exepcted ...  we'll just have to see what happens.  Not every ship in the Federation line up is built like the Sovy  ( or bigger ).  That much Chris is right about.  I just wish he would not take the observation so far as to off the rest of us.

3.  Sheesh ...  what ever happened to how I feel about this ..   Dunno ..  I 've spent too much time on everything else !

I will say this ...  according to what I've seen .. my interpritation of the Titan will be reviewed ....  I may come out with a smaller hull design ... MAYBE !

[Captain Pierce]

I don't see this concept of the Titan as being a beefed up science vessel; for one thing, science vessels typically don't mount quantum torpedoes.    I see it as essentially a smaller version of the Galaxy class, presumably without families on board.  There's certainly nothing in the description that suggests that it can't defend itself--or, indeed, that it isn't capable of a little offense as well.   

That said, I was under the impression that the Intrepid class was supposed to already be the "Galaxy Lite" of the Fleet, so I'm not sure why the need would be felt for another smaller Explorer...

[OlBuzzard]

Capt Pierece ..  I tend to agree with your idea ..  it's a question of wheather or not "Pocket Books" sees it that way.

Either way ...  it is good to look at this ....  I'm understandably curious if there will be a difference between Pocket ... and Paramont Pictures

(ducks from incomming books !)

heheh 

( not intended to be argumentive guys ..  but ya have to admit....  that is an interesting thought !)

[Captain Pierce]

Oh, there will almost certainly be disagreement between Paramount and Pocket...    Trust me, if Paramount were to do anything with the Titan, the first thing they'd do would be to throw the design that wins this contest and is used on the book covers right out the window... 

[Chris Johnson]

Oh, there will almost certainly be disagreement between Paramount and Pocket...    Trust me, if Paramount were to do anything with the Titan, the first thing they'd do would be to throw the design that wins this contest and is used on the book covers right out the window... 

They certainly threw the Daedelus-class out the window when they were developing Enterprise back in 2001.

[Rat Boy]

Hey, Buzz, do you still have Azel's sketches of your design on-line somewhere?

[Smiley]

Well I for one kind of like this description, and I am pleased that it's not some ridiculous "bigger, better, faster, stronger" vessel...along the lines of the ideals of a certain super-nation - also known as a "fan-boy" ship.
And so what if a story has a little more in it than shooting everything in sight? Sounds like plot and character development with moral undertones to me! Oh no! - Is that a sin too! Goodness, what is the world coming to?!?

[Rat Boy]

along the lines of the ideals of a certain super-nation - also known as a "fan-boy" ship.

Maybe it's time people started saying what ship they're all vaguely referring to...

[Smiley]

along the lines of the ideals of a certain super-nation - also known as a "fan-boy" ship.

Maybe it's time people started saying what ship they're all vaguely referring to...

I wasn't referring to any ship inparticular, although there was a deliberate subtext. I.e. something that doesn't necessarily blatantly shout out it's meaning, but that which you have to interpret for yourself!

[OlBuzzard]

Actaully RB  I took down most everything to do with the AAC .. the X-CLC and the Titan as well.  ( There seemed to be little interest in them ).

[Chris Johnson]

I don't see this concept of the Titan as being a beefed up science vessel; for one thing, science vessels typically don't mount quantum torpedoes.    I see it as essentially a smaller version of the Galaxy class, presumably without families on board.  There's certainly nothing in the description that suggests that it can't defend itself--or, indeed, that it isn't capable of a little offense as well.   

That said, I was under the impression that the Intrepid class was supposed to already be the "Galaxy Lite" of the Fleet, so I'm not sure why the need would be felt for another smaller Explorer...

The story behind the Luna-class:
The Luna-Class Development Project was initiated in 2369 in response to the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole, and originally conceived as leading a planned Starfleet wave of deep-space exploration in the Gamma Quadrant. The project was spearheaded by Dr. (Commander) Xin Ra-Havreii, a Starfleet theoretical engineer at Utopia Planitia. Field testing on the prototype U.S.S. Luna was under way by 2372 in the Alpha Quadrant, and construction of the fleet was scheduled to begin the following year. Unfortunately, contact with the Dominion and the subsequent outbreak of hostilities mothballed the project indefinitely, as Starfleet redirected its shipbuilding resources to the production of vessels better suited to combat.

Upon the war's end in late 2375, Dr. Ra-Havreii correctly judged that the Federation's cultural psychology would eventually shift back toward its pre-war ideals, and pushed to have the Luna-class revisited as a major step toward resuming Starfleet's mission of peaceful exploration (even though the class would no longer be assigned exclusively to the exploration of the Gamma Quadrant). Construction of an initial fleet of twelve Luna-class vessels was completed by 2379, and the Titan was offered to William T. Riker, one of many command officers eager to put the strife of the last decade behind him.

Considering the storyline, the Sovereign lineage might become rarer by the minute, and ships like the Galaxy-class and styled lineages will come back into the spotlight.  The storyline seems to inspire a Galaxy-class lineage, so I think Pierce hit it right on, in a way.

[Smiley]

When you speak of the design lineage of a vessel, are you speaking in terms of it's external appearance or rather the purpose of the vessel and it's predecessors?

Why can't a more exploration/scientific-themed vessel share in the same design traits as the venerable Sovereign class? It too can be sleek and "sexy" in appearance, like the Sovereign is in my opinion, just not obviously as massive, and hence maybe imposing.

[Chris Johnson]

I was believing both.  Sure, the Sovereign-class could possibly (although that's getting non-canonical) be a design started in the mid-to-late 2360s like the Luna-class, but who is to say the Luna-class won't continue the Galaxy-class design lineage in role and appearence?  Who is to say it would be of the Sovereign lineage?  Or perhaps it could be an entirely different type of lineage.  We might not know until October or November.  All we can do is speculate.  I just believe a Galaxy-class lineage is most-likely for a type of vessel such as this, taking the history of the Luna-class into mind.

Besides, I never liked the Sovereign-class: That Eaves design has "Fanboy" written inside and out, and the modifications to it in Star Trek: Nemesis makes it worse considering the countless torpedo launchers it seems to have.

[Smiley]

All of the designs of vessels seem to follow some kind of trend in appearance and the reasons given or created are usually to allow for some new kind of technological development etc. The huge round saucer era of the Galaxy had it's day (plus all of it's cousin designs based off of it) and then there was the Intrepid; streamlined design, then the Sovereign - maybe it might seem a bit fanboyesque but at least it has only two nacelles! Then the Prometheus (Very fanboyish!) but all of the latest line of ships all seem to be streamlined in shape of saucer, so I would expect that any new vessel, regardless of intended mission or purpose, would share in these design traits - just as every other vessel before it seemed to do.
I would be disappointed if any new official design went backwards in style and time.

[Chris Johnson]

Then you would hate the Enterprise-J.  That is, if you've never seen "Azati Prime" [ENT] or the 2005 Ships of the Line calendar.

I believe the Sovereign-class trend was more of a war trend, as it came in time of war.  And considering the storyline of everyone wanting to hop out of that trend, I think the Sovereign-class trend might fall short in the 2380s and 2390s...

[Rat Boy]

And I was never a fan of the Galaxy design.  The saucer is too disproportionate when compared to the secondary hull, like there was little thought given to aesthetics and balance when they designed.  It very nearly turned me off TNG once the design started showing up in the newspapers.  In fact, I cheered when that pregnant whale was trashed in Generations, one of the few things about that movie worth praising.

[Captain Pierce]

A couple of tidbits from the first novel: Titan has 18 civilians on board, spouses and children of crewmembers; and her 8 shuttlecraft are named Armstrong, Ellington, Gillespie, Holiday, Handy, Biederbecke, Marsalis and /i]Mance.[/i]  Apparently, Riker got to name them all himself.    Armstrong (named after jazz musician Louis, not astronaut Neil) is identified as a Type-11.  In one scene, all 8 shuttles are shuttles are parked on Titan's "primary hangar deck," which also has a runabout parked on it as well.  The term "primary hangar deck" would seem to indicate at least one "secondary hangar deck" on the ship; one would wonder why a shuttle or two wouldn't be parked there as well... 

[Rat Boy]

Well, so much for the Starfleet tradition of naming shuttles after great explorers.

[Smiley]

Do runabouts count as shuttles? I mean, I think that they might not be, but there are certainly shuttles at least as big as runabouts.... And they were named after rivers....