Topic: Hull/Command limits

[KHH Jakle]

Wanted to rehash some stuff that came up in the PBR v 4.0 thread.

The basic idea was to apply some hull requirements.

To get a BB hull, you need at least one CA hull ship
To get a DN or BCH hull, you need at lease one CL hull ship
ect ect.

I know some advocated using move cost as the determining factor.

I am going to do something here (the age of a BB and 2 police ships is over), I just haven't decided exactly what

[Corbomite]

To get a BB hull, you need at least one CA hull ship
To get a DN or BCH hull, you need at lease one CL hull ship
ect ect.

All this does is penalize races with expensive ships. I don't see how that is fair. Do carriers follow this OOB too or are they exempt?

[Dfly]

I would rather see all BB ships elliminated.

I would rather see a limit on types of DN ships deemed usable(say DNE, DNL, DNH types only or some such, example only), or even if teams think this would be ok, just elliminate all DN class ships.

Make it so that if a DN is taken, the 2 wingships must be heavies(unless DN class is removed, then this one would be not here)

If a Heavy is taken as biggest, 1 wing must be light, the other can be light or heavy

IF a Light is the big ship, the wings can be lights or frigs

This sort of line of ship selection would allow a little room, while trying to get the hulls combined to be aproximately the same size or style, within reason.

These are just ideas, your comments are welcome.  (remember if implimented it would only affect next cycle, and can be changed if needed for the following cycles)

[Nomad]

The basic idea was to apply some hull requirements.

To get a BB hull, you need at least one CA hull ship
To get a DN or BCH hull, you need at lease one CL hull ship
ect ect.

I  know some advocated using move cost as the determining factor.

I will go along with what Jackle suggested above. Seems reasonable.
I would advocate using move cost as a determining factor.
 
But eliminating BB's and/or DN's is too drastic. And I do not support that change.

[FPF-Bach]

To many new rules are just going to drive people away.  Stick with the bare minimun of what is necessary and leave it that.

[762_XC]

To many new rules are just going to drive people away.  Stick with the bare minimun of what is necessary and leave it that.

I agree. PBR is hard enough for a lot of foks to follow now. Let's fix the PPD nonsense and then leave it alone.

[Kroma BaSyl]

This rule is unnecessary.

[KHH Jakle]

So everybody's ok with the BB and 2 Police ships as well as the Command Frigate being the command ship for 2 heavy cruisers...?

[KBF-Butcher]

Lets not get confused with further restrictions as i dont think they r mandatory.
Just change the ppd rule as Corbo insistently suggesting "PERIOD"    and make some kind of restriction to Hydran ship combos as f.ex in late era they bring 24hornet3 which is complet nonsense.After all as some people  claims the PBR rules should limit the cheese.

[Corbomite]

So everybody's ok with the BB and 2 Police ships as well as the Command Frigate being the command ship for 2 heavy cruisers...?

I'm not sure that we are OK with that as a concept. I think everyone agrees that it is kind of silly, but the rule you propose doesn't fix the problem across the board and should be re-thought or re-worked to reflect that this is a league not Random Space Battles in SFB and that we need a fair and competitive environment as well as a dose of "reality". The problem with true PBR is that it is not meant to be a fair playing field for all. If we are going to use it for a league we need to make some adjustments for that arena of play over a "wartime" arena of play.

This is why I pushed so hard for the Carrier/PF Tender/Escort thing. I still think PF Tenders should be considered Carriers for our purposes. If all races had both fighters and PF's your rule would be fair, but since they don't it can't be. Even the PF rules in themselves are lopsided as two of the races can field 8 PF's with no penalty and one can only field 6 because you only half fixed the problem by limiting Tenders with a Command rating as filling two slots. This completely ignores other ways to field multiple PF's so the problem still exists.

[762_XC]

So everybody's ok with the BB and 2 Police ships as well as the Command Frigate being the command ship for 2 heavy cruisers...?

Fine with me.

[Dfly]

"This is why I pushed so hard for the Carrier/PF Tender/Escort thing. I still think PF Tenders should be considered Carriers for our purposes. If all races had both fighters and PF's your rule would be fair, but since they don't it can't be. Even the PF rules in themselves are lopsided as two of the races can field 8 PF's with no penalty and one can only field 6 because you only half fixed the problem by limiting Tenders with a Command rating as filling two slots. This completely ignores other ways to field multiple PF's so the problem still exists."

This may be true, but when was the last time any fleet went against 8 or even 6 PF?  I have flown in all the seasons of GZ and here, and not once, even before PBR, did we fly vs PFs.  I would love to know if any fleets have ever flown at all vs PFs, and if so, how many times.  I think that most people have realised that when flying were the BPV is equal for both sides, that the costs of the PFs are too high to warrant using them, therefore this part of the game is rarely if ever used.  This is in spite of the fact that the rules for PFs stands as it is.  If it were to be restricted further, well, it would not affect anyone because no one uses them in the first place.

As for the idea of 1 BB and 2 POL, well, it would never be a wartime combo, but this is a game.  I would like to see ship class combos, but  I do realize that it adds more rules to the game which could complicate things at times, so with this in mind, I am ok with the possibility of a BB and 2 POL or the Command Frigate for 2 heavy cruisers.  Think of it, I would rather face a Frigate command and 2 CA than to face say a BCH command, a CA and a Frigate.  

As far as Hydrans bringing 24 fighters into a game in late era, well, that can only happen if the bpv is high, and it is in late era, and they decide to.  Does it seem fair to have to face 24 Hornet III, not really.  Should they be penalized for being able to do this?  I personally dont think so as this will be happening for how many games in the whole season?  There are currently 4 games in the entie season that are late era over 600.  Considering that almost all, well actually only 1 fleet, is Hydran, and that Hydrans are almost mute without fighters, I don't see why they should be restricted even more than other fleets.

As per most of the rules as they stand, I dont think there are any real issues, other than perhaps the PPD thing.  It is unfortunate that we could not say:  "there will be no ISC race next cycle, you must choose something else"... If we did that I know we would lose some pilots.  Only reason I  would think of elliminating ISC race, is that any fleet who as ever flown ISC race has not lost a match yet this season, and in 3 previous seasons, only lost due to not showing up.  ISC race has won the campionship everytime too.  I am not taking away from the pilots who fly ISC race as they are great pilots, I would only think to do this to give some other races a fairer chance at winning overall.

[Corbomite]

With all due respect Dfly, just because no one uses it doesn't mean its not a good strategy. In this cycle I have seen BPV's that make it possible to field mass weaponry that if played correctly is a real problem for anything except a Carrier group and it only requires one PF Tender to do it with all the casual carriers out there now. I know I would consider those configs based on terrain and who I was fighting if I flew those races. You can't tell me that 24 PH-1's aren't useful? And that's just the "light" weaponry! 

[KBF-Butcher]

 

oh f.. it

[KHH Jakle]

Point of Clarification -

what I put as the 'rule' at the start of this thread was just an example.  I didn't intend for that to represent the final product.

It can be more detailed or less, more strict or less - whatever.  Give me some examples.

I think something needs to be done to correct 2 pols + BB and the Command Frigate + 2xCA.  I am hoping one of you clever people will spout off with some neat way of doing that.

[FPF-DieHard]

I think something needs to be done to correct 2 pols + BB and the Command Frigate + 2xCA.  I am hoping one of you clever people will spout off with some neat way of doing that.

I agree, but I think you over-estimate people's ability to comprehend complicated rules.   

[KHH Jakle]

Not anymore I don't.

I am relying on you foks to keep the rules synthesized to easier to understand forms.

[Dfly]

How about this:

Command ship CANNOT be the smallest vessel

Ships must be within egual to or one category of each other.  ie: 1 frig + 1 light + 1 heavy is the maximum stretch.
                                                                                           (similarly 1 light + 1 heavy + 1 dread is max stretch).

[Corbomite]

How about this:

Command ship CANNOT be the smallest vessel

Ships must be within egual to or one category of each other.  ie: 1 frig + 1 light + 1 heavy is the maximum stretch.
                                                                                           (similarly 1 light + 1 heavy + 1 dread is max stretch).

This still penalizes races with expensive ships. There are CL's out there that cost more than some CC's.

[Dfly]

I am sorry but I dont see how this penalizes the expensive races. Please explain so I can understand that part.  I am not stating that they must take 1 of each category, only that if you take a heavy, you cannot take 2 frigates.  you could take 2 heavy and a light, 1 heavy and 2 lights, 2 heavies and a dread, 1 frig and 2 lights, 2 frig and 1 light, 3 frigs, 3 lights, 3 heavies.  I am pretty sure with these total combos, any fleet would be able to find ships that will work just fine.  Besides if certain type hulls are too expensive for some fleets at low bpv, then dont take them.  I can only think that you are talking about the ISC race, as the heavy hulls are more expensive than other races, same for their other hulls.  However, even without any rule change, those hulls are still more expensive than other fleet hulls. 

If I seem to be missing the point Corbo, please let me know.