Topic: Racks on Klingon Carriers...a discussion...moved from Thread.

[KBF-Crim]

Moved this here because I didnt wish to highjack the other thread....

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Drone racks on Klinker Carriers....

This kinda rules lawyery....

First ...let me say that...as a Klingon pilot...I do NOT want systems thrown at me as tokens...it's really not what I desire...

The D6V for example...has no drone racks in SFB......I think we all know that....(although I seem to remember that some varient had racks the D7V conversion with refit IIRC...just havent found it yet...)

That being said...

Same said carriers load out Drone fighters....and therefore have drone stocks in storage...

They also clearly have admin shuttles.....

Looking at rules FD7...specifclly DF7.1 and FD7.2....there is nothing stated the requires a ship to actually have a drone  rack in order to produce a scatter pack...

You can generate an SP by removing drones from racks...OR ...from stores....

DF7.11 Qualified shuttles: Only admin shuttle, MRS shuttles (DF7.44),MLS,MSS and fighters (DF7.44) may be useed(IE. armed and launched) as SP's

FD7.12 Prohibited drones: Type-III (FD5.25) and multiple warhead (FD8.0) cannot be used in an SP. This prohibition includeds type-III drones on fighters used as SP's even if those fighters are normally armed with type-III's; however, see (FD72.11)

DF7.13 Allowed Drones: Any type of drone, except those specifically prohibited by the rules, can be placed in an SP. Drones with AGT can be placed in an SP. all drones currently prohibited are listed in (DF7.12). If new drone types are added to the game, they can be placed in an SP unless their description prohitbits this use.

DF7.211: A fighter used as an SP (FD&.44) carries up to it's normal load of drones blah blah etc etc...

DF7.212 The drones used for an SP are drawn from the reserve stocks(DF2.44) OR the drone racks of the ship which prepares and launches the SP.

DF7.214 Drones are loaded on an SP as if it where a fighter, see (J4.82).

FD7.214 Deck crews: The drones must be loaded on the SP by deck crews at their normal rates. ALL ships have deck crews ; see (J4.814)

DF7.23 Ships without deck crews: See (J4.814) if the ship doesn not have regularly assigned deck crews.

DF7.24 Drones are removed from drone racks under the terms of (FD2.42).

FD7.25 Transferring Drones: Drones taken from staorage for use on an SP are tranferred to the shuttle bay by means of (J4.82) and loaded on a non fighter SP as a single combined deck crew action. Drones taken from drone racks require a deck crew action to unload, and a second subsequent action to load the SP. This is faster than loading the drones on a fighter dues to the nature on an SP; thia rate applies only to non fighters.

Shew...that's a mouthfull...

The way I read this...Any ship with drones in storage and either admin shuttles OR fighters, can loadout an SP...

That would apply to Klingon carriers...at least any carrier capable of loading out Drone fighters...

So while it's clear that Klink carriers that dont have racks in SFB shouldnt have them in SFC IMHO.....they should still ba able to load out SP's as in SFB...

But...the only way you can loadout an SP in SFC is to have at least one drone rack...

My proposal:
 
Place ONE drone rack on all Klink carriers (that dont have racks allready like the C7V) and limit the reloads to just enough to produce SP's for the Admin shuttles on board....pay for that with a BPV bump or sacrifice an internal.

Example : The K-D6U should only have one rack (F?) with 25 drones (one for first load and 24 for 4 SP's).

This removes the offensive capabilty of said rack while still maintianing the abilty for the carrier to generate an SP under the SFB rule set...

I hope this provides enough rational

Because without at least one rack... the abilty to generate SFB legal SP's is lost in the translation to SFC...that's alot of damage potential lost...and should warrent a BPV drop accordingly...

[KBF-Crim]

Posted by Jinn:

There is another reason why DH and I thought Klink carriers should get drone racks.

In SFB they would have escorts.  Escorts with drones.   In SFC we could have gone with a rule allowing a carrier pilot to fly two ships as long as the second one was an escort . . .   or just put the damn drones on the carrier.   The second was easier.

Yeah...but an escorted carrier is just too uber without everyone else having mutiple ships also...unless there was some some kind of operational area restriction....so peeps could stay away from that chedder....IMHO

In an F&E setting...they be in a fleet yes....but they would also be an expendable unit involved in larger fleet actions...and possibly subject to easier destruction...

Should they have offensive drone capabilty?...no...

Should they be able to generate SP's from stores?....yes...

So  my suggestion is to remove one rack from the D6Ua and drop the reloads to just enough to generate the SP's....

Add a single F to the other Klingon carriers that should be able to generate SP's also...Not sure if there are any fed or mirak carriers without drone racks....but this would apply to them as well...

Sorry to side track the thread....I just thought it worthy of discussion...

Back to the program...

P.S....what I'm am trying to say is....although the racks are greatly appreaciated ( at least in my case)....the above is a much better case than just saying "because they should have escorts"....

Lots of ships should have escorts....giving racks to only the Klink carriers for such reasons doesnt seem fair to me...nor warranted....

But giving them all one F rack to generate SP's ,under the above referenced rules, seems like a good compromise...this ofcorse applies to ALL carriers capable of having drone fighters but possessing no offensive drone rack.

It's more consistant and rule based....rather than an arbitrary balance tweak....even if the tweak is in MY favor... 

[KAT J'inn]

Not bad thoughts.    Not needed for GW5 and I'd like to leave GW6 alone in this regard . . . .  BUT

For the Federation & Empire server . . .   this might be a darn good idea!!

[KBF-Nail]

EWWWW!!!!!! Dont like this Idea.

[KAT J'inn]

EWWWW!!!!!! Dont like this Idea.

<hands Crim a painstick>

Umm would ya deal with Nail please.

[KBF-Crim]

EWWWW!!!!!! Dont like this Idea.

*ZOT*

Shut up you bastard!

[KBF-Nail]

Whats the matter Jinn cant Handle me yourself? I strike fear into my fleetmates everytime  Iwing with them.  So when are u and I going too Wing.

[FPF-DieHard]

What about  F-Racks like what was done on SGO for the G-Racks escort ships?

[KAT J'inn]

Whats the matter Jinn cant Handle me yourself? I strike fear into my fleetmates everytime  Iwing with them.  So when are u and I going too Wing.

Yeah I hope to get to fly with you soon.  Seriously!


As for the handling you part. Well I've always believed that family problems should be handled in family.  Besides the Klingons seem to love T-Bombing you so much anyways. 

[KBF-Crim]

What about  F-Racks like what was done on SGO for the G-Racks escort ships?

Personally...it's up to you guys...you have WAY more G-rack ships than anyone else...any changes will effect you guys most...

Clearly.....escorts (with a few exceptions) are by design suppossed to be defensive in nature...the duality gives the escorts to much offensive capabilty in my mind....yes....even the klingon ones...

I'd be willing to loose the drone side all together and keep the AMD's if we could actually fly em or use them escorts...

How about two versions of each true G-rack escort? ...a droner....and an AMD'er...

You could switch them out for different missions and hope you chose correctly ?

I dunno....

So what do you think about SP generation on the non-rack carriers?

[FPF-DieHard]

So what do you think about SP generation on the non-rack carriers?

I didn't have any issue with Drone racks on Carriers, I was cool with it but it is from a Fed-centric view.   Federation ships can handle the drone-racks throw on Klingon carriers, some other races cannot. 

Putting F-Racks will give them the ability to make Scatterpacks without giving them much drone throw.

[Dizzy]

Was there a problem with the way they were in SG3 and 4? Didnt they also have racks on a GW server as well?

[Corbomite]

I don't think the issue here is what SFB has or what SFC has. This time it really is a need to keep up with the Jones'. The fact is that every other drone using race has drone racks on their carriers and given the Klingons any kind of a token is just a waste of time.

People used to bitch about the "sucky" Klingon fighters until Dogmatix and I went on a campaign to try and convince people it wasn't the fighters, but the carrier's lack of ability to lay down cover fire for the fighters to soak up AMD/PD/PlasD that was the problem. Some experiments in server shiplists have been done adding drone racks using the regular Klingon upgrade schedule and I have yet to hear one complaint about "uber" Klingon carriers. It would seem that as long as you don't exceed one rack for FF/DD, two racks for CL/CA and four racks for BCH/DN you have a winning solution even if those racks are B racks.

[KBF-Crim]

Yes Diz...the D6U has had two racks on it for the last couple of servers...problem is....they arent supposed to be there...

But at the same time...this ship should be able to generate SP's from stores....to retain some SFB deadlyness....

So...the ship having two racks for offensive use isnt really fair IMHO...even if the ship is my own....

As DH pointed out...one F rack isnt much of an offensive threat...and will allow the rackless carriers to still produce SP's...

No...I dont think every little factor has to be SFB....or PBR...or F&E....

I never played SFB....but as a wargamer...I can appreciate it's intricacy, complexity, and relative balance...

It seems prudent to refer to SFB whenever the rule still has relevance in an SFC situation...and ignore them if they dont apply...

Not tryin to be Mr. popularity....but the topic came up and I thought it warranted a revisit...

[762_XC]

Some experiments in server shiplists have been done adding drone racks using the regular Klingon upgrade schedule and I have yet to hear one complaint about "uber" Klingon carriers.

You haven't been listening then.

[KBF-Crim]

Hmmmm ....uber klingons.....is that an oxy moron like Klingon intelligence?

But yes...that perception is part of what I'm trying to address...

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Some experiments in server shiplists have been done adding drone racks using the regular Klingon upgrade schedule and I have yet to hear one complaint about "uber" Klingon carriers.

You haven't been listening then.

Well, it does go to show how much he appreciates my concerns considering I was the one lodging them the most.

[KBF-Crim]

Some experiments in server shiplists have been done adding drone racks using the regular Klingon upgrade schedule and I have yet to hear one complaint about "uber" Klingon carriers.

You haven't been listening then.

Well, it does go to show how much he appreciates my concerns considering I was the one lodging them the most.

Only after a droner pilot in a carrier chased your fighter jocky butt out in a drone boat...

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Oh yeah, the one that was sporting fighters with double normal dizzies? 

You want to know why I got away?

B/c you were too cautious to approach a half dead frigate in a heavy cruiser carrier. <snicker>

I remember finding out the next day about the fighters and thinking, 'wow....no wonder those things tore me up!!'

[CaptJosh]

Ok, as to the question of Kzin carriers existing that don't have drone racks, have you ever seen ANY Kzin ship without at least one and more usually at least 3 to 4 drone racks?