Topic: Starfleetcommand 4: Posssible ?????

[EmeraldEdge]

Um, so why type it?  It's actually more of a flame than anything Crim said.  He just commented that if the line was to continue as it had, and he feels it should (his stated opinion) then SFB would have to be on board.   I'm no SFB nut, and I certainly don't think that a great space game has to be based on it (even if it's a Trek game) but SFC3 bit the biggest rocks I could find.  IMO Disney's Treasure Planet game was better in many ways.   I don't think you can get a good tactical combat simulator with having something that is really diverse (and I'm not talking x number of phasers that are almost the same, but it's still x number. That's variety, right?  ugh!).

I wouldn't say that SFB killed a community, it was the conflict of the SFB and anti-SFB folks that keeps this thing going.  I personally feel that the SFB-only folks need to loosen up a bit, and the anti-SFB folks need to take a pill and realize that SFB is more Trek than they realize (for a lot of those folks, if the Enterprise didn't have it it shouldn't be in the game, but what about all the other weapons the other races have used.  Does it matter if it was only in one episode?  I don't think so.   Plus, tons of other games have invented new weapons to put on Trek ships, but nobody really complains, but the second something comes from SFB, it's sent from the devil for the sole purpose of destroying Trek or something).  Quite frankly, I think if the anti-SFB crowd had their way all the time we'd end up with a pretty dull, one sided game.  To me, both sides are at fault.

Back to the real discussion though, what are the odds that a new system could be invented, and a game produced (remember it doesn't have to come stock, with Trek ships as long as it's moddable, so there is no license issue)?  Could it be done by fans with an existing engine that's out there (even if it's a bit outdated)?  and if not, is there company that is likely to take on the risk of producing such a game?

[Pestalence_XC]

I'd be estatic is another SFC game was able to be created.. Heck, I'd settle for the source code and help work on a community based expansion of SFC whether it be SFC OP engine or SFC III engine makes no difference to me.. SFB or no SFB .. makes no difference..

but the fact of the matter is that the source code is not released, licenses are tied up, and the source code has so many hands in it for ownership that it everyone is having a hard time of getting it released.. as such, all I can say is that a new title of SFC being made doesn't stand a chance in hell.. a massive mod using the source code , that still holds a chance but extremely slim..

Now if someone wants to use a different game engine and create a SFC like game, then that is possible, but it would still be a mod of the game the engine was designed for and it could not be sold and since the SFC name is tied up legally, it would have to be called something a bit different.

If someone wants to create a new game engine, then by all means go ahead, but remenber it would have to play differently or it would violate copywrite laws... also hope that they have the money to work on it and the team to do so...

anyhow, I'm not trying to flame anything.. I am just sticking to facts..

Fact 1, Taldren is closed and is not coming back.. as such, everyone who has the right to work on the SFC game engine is gone and can not touch it.

Fact 2, Starfleet Command title is protected by Copywrite

Fact 3, The Source Code is not released

so based on these 3 simple facts, an SFC 4 is not possible.. that does not mean that mods can not be made nor does it mean a Mod for another game engine could be made.. but the point is that it would not be SFC 4.

[OlBuzzard]

1.  EE ...  IF I seemed a bit out of sorts bubba ..  I apologise ..  sorry man .. I've seen too much of the extremists take over things ..  and it seems we some how always manage to forget what we are really trying to do sometimes.

At any rate ..  SFB ..  when it's fun ..  is cool  .. but it got out of control.  Extremists interpretations became the accepted norm.  At any rate I wont bring up old bad feelings if thats s cool with you ..  I should just let that go ..  it's in the past.

Sorry ..  I guess I just have too many bad vibes off of the past.

2.  Pestanence ...  IF ..  and ONLY if those conditions remained as they are and never changed then you would be correct.  However ..  PLEASE ..  if you get nothing else that I EVER write in this or any other forum any where else in the whole wide world ...

man ..  LOOK we GOT to believe in the endless possibilities.  Heck ..  to me that is the one thing we can appreciate about the Star Trek adventure.  While there may never in RL be:  Klingons, Vulcans, Andorians, or any of the other stuff out there ... I do believe in the possibilities.  When Trek was taken off the air the first time ...  an handfull of us believed in the possibilities of a movie ..  maybe more than one.  ANYTHING was possible as far as we were concerned.

Please dont go looking for old files, reports, quotations etc to prove that this is off the beaten path.

I would rather be your friend  ..  as well as the ones of us who are left in the community.  It just seems that a wall was built some time back and depending upon where we stood on certain issues anyone was either listened to .. or ignored.

If it's ok with you gents ..  I will continue to hold out looking for the possibilities and the belief that all of this is ANYTHING but over.

"There are always possibilities!"

[Pestalence_XC]

The only possibility that exists is if Kenneth yeast comes back and releases the source code forthe game engine.. now the only source codes he can release is for EAW and OP... BUT he has to get permission from all involved... he was hoping to release it in Dec 2004, however no one has seen hide nor hair of him since Nov 2004..

now the only one who had gained any information on SFC OP source code is Bonk and his contact with Quick Silver, but that is a LONG way from the game engine source code..

now all I can state is this.. if someone can find kenneth's personal Email addy and we bombard him with a petition for the source code release, then MAYBE it will happen.. but until he releases the Source Code, SFC is stuck as is.

That is all the hope that I have.. I have a hope for the source code.. but I do not think it will happen soon, or if it does, the Taldren Build Enviroment may be a problem as well.. the enviroment in which OP was created in..

[OlBuzzard]

sorry to hear that Pestalance ..

 particularly since there may be more at stake than just OP .  ( No I don't have all  the techno-babble at my finger tips.  But, I have had this discussion with someone else before.)  I can't recall with whom, or the circumstances behind the discussion ( ....  having a senior moment here ... sorry !!!) ..  But I DO remember that there is a lot more to the idea you are discussing than just simply handing over those codes.


Back to the opening question ..  yes it can happen.  However for a new game to be released it more probable that it would be closer to an entirely different format .. or perhaps a combination of SFC-3 and BC ...  and maybe some of the ideas of OP with it.  The engine of OP has a big part in SFC-3 as it is  (so I'm told) ...  That seems to indicate that it would even LESS likely that the data you are after, sir, would be released any time soon.

So ..  yes a new game is possible.  It should be interesting to see what format it would follow.

[Pestalence_XC]

I wasn't meaning just OP.. OP and EAW is the only source codes that can be released by Kenneth Yeast.. the original SFC Source Code belongs to Interplay and SFC 3 Source Code belongs to Activision.. those companies would have to release those components...

as for a New Star Trek Game.. by all means yes.. harry Lang even stated Trek games are in the works... another SFC on the other hand would have to have a different name and a different method of playability.. in that case, it is not SFC any longer.. which means a different developer... as such, a totally different game.. meaning a move away from SFC and it's roots and design....

I never said no other games could be made.. I stated that there won't be an SFC 4.. the best anyone can hope for is the OP Source code and make a massive mod on the game engine... and again that is a hope that may not happen any time soon.. unless we can get hold of Kenneth Yeast and see if he is willing to release the code... if he can't be reached or if he can't release the code, then SFC is stuck as is.

and Yes, SFC 3 used OP's core for the game engine, however, the Source Code to both games are independant and rights by companies do not overlap.. IE: Activision has no say in OP Source Code Release.. only SFC 3 Source Code release.

[Age]

   The question is what can you do with the source code Pestalence?

[Pestalence_XC]

It isn't what I can do with it, it is what the community can do...

With the source code, the entire game engine could be re-written, races added, a z axis added for 3D flight, new weapons, etc.. the possibilities are endless... Everyone, who has the tools, could make their own version of  the game.. or the community could unite and make 1 massive all accepting Mod for the game or hundreds of different mods could be created.....

For myself, it would be a great tool to learn from.

[Rod ONeal]

I haven't read every post. So, forgive me if this has already been stated.

So, I guess that someone couldn't take ADB's intellectual property (with permission, of course) and Paramount's intellectual property (again with permission) and do another SFB based Trek game? Why not?

Taldren's intellectual property (the X-weapons, etc...) wouldn't be missed IMO.

I'd rather see the source code, personally. It would save us from having to go through all of the teething pains from SFC all over again. Bugs, deciding to do the systems differently rather than by the book, etc...

[NannerSlug]

another sfc4? Nope. Not possible.

It would be nice to have the source code for all the games though - at least some forum of permission to mess with the .exe and sprites.q3 file. That would make things fun again to a degree.

As to the rest - its just best left that sfb is not trek - but can be a fun game at times. Different people, different tastes.

[Toast]

OK sfb isnt trek it's a board game based on trek, sfc is the 1st online experiance of trek that alot of players including myself had.   SFB didnt kill trek ! players who were unwilling to adjust for a balanced game killed trek. Now on the subject of sfc3 some say they want a game based on the show well ok then that would be 55 min of chatter 3 photons and a cloud of dust federation wins game over now I dont know bout you all but thats not going to hold interest for very long sorry. The only thing thats holding this small group together now is mods, op+ has the lock on op,and looks to me the best mod for sfc3 is gen imo not to hurt any one feelings of course for there work's . Seems whats left of the community needs to band behind these 2 mods and work out  game's of balance as well as ship selection,and model's for the 2  game's hell even texures and sound , simply the best needs to be imported into the games period. If no code is coming which looks to be the case then a stance of for the community's sake needs to be takin or all is lost enjoy........................

[Toast]

Now as far as op+ goes i feel that work is moving along fine, I have downloaded i think every mod for sfc3 a game i dont even play just to see what folks have come up with and have found interesting stuff and features from all that would make one great mod of mods for that game ,tos sheild graphics were cool an some models, era selector in gen .........sweet lots of good models there and over all look, that new gfl mod they say they have balance hell i dunno u all would have to look at it the intro was a nice touch thou. I'm just grabbing at a few things off the top of my head Theres alot of talent in this community it needs to get on the same page folks again my opinion not ment to hurt feelings enjoy............

[OlBuzzard]

another sfc4? Nope. Not possible.

It would be nice to have the source code for all the games though - at least some forum of permission to mess with the .exe and sprites.q3 file. That would make things fun again to a degree.

As to the rest - its just best left that sfb is not trek - but can be a fun game at times. Different people, different tastes.

Dude ....  let me drag down my calendar .. that's twice in a week we agree on something.

As for the suggestion that others can't or wont play the game because it was finally balanced ..  ( as the patch for SFC-3 and the way OP is as well  seems to implicate...)  that is a sad joke.  It seems that some are only satisfied with a twisted definition of balance.  And even more sad anyone who dares to disagree is somewhat ostracised until they see the error of their way, repent, and subscribe to the "SFB" ways of the force.

Sorry ..  Been there: done that:  WONT do it again.

[KBF-Crim]

This SFB stuff is EXACTLY what we must avoid.  Sorry guys .. you can flame my butt if you want to..   but every time we get into this it becomes an argument ..  and a game that is simply not worth it.

It is good to have some elements of the game there  ( as Taldren first envisioned it ...  )  but if you are going back to those old arguments .... and getting all of you buds on here to tell me just how wrong I am ..  do what ever you will ..

but SFB has killed one community ...  and the oppsite extreme another.  I had hope we had learned something by now ...

looks like I was wrong.

This sort of dogmatism is exactly what has killed Trek in general.  Believe me, I have been with Trek since the beginning ...  and SFB as well.  I think I know what I'm talking about.

The likely hood of those who are in controll of OP actually listening to me )or anyone else for that matter) is virtually non existant.  WE have seen all the flame wars over this matter that I care to.  If SFB is what you want ..  then continue to develop OP .. and work with what ever you need to in order to have SFB.  But STOP trying to cram it down the throats of the rest of us.  We dont want it any more.

Oh ..  I'm almost certain that in the eyes of many of you ( but thank God the majority who purchased the game disagree) ..  that if it is not SFB ..  then it is not a true Trek game.  NO ! You are wrong.

This superficial ideaism of asserting SFB over Trek is one of the things that has KILLED the entire series.

Well ..  I guess I'm done ..  probably in more ways than one.

How small this community has gotten.

this hurts me to even to have to type this out.

 

You want Trek dogmatism and flame bait?

Here you go...

Posted by Nanner:

As to the rest - its just best left that sfb is not trek -

And the sky is green...

Really...how do expect these types of comment to be recieved?

I can read....my SFC box has SFB plastered all over it...has the cadets rules set right on the disk.....with paramount blessings....and this little comment "Finally a starship naval combat game WORTHY of the name Star Trek...

"Using data from the best selling strategy board game , StarFleet battles ,Stafleet Command puts you in the captains chair for the most amazing real time space cpmbat experience ever created."

And right on the front...."Inspired by Star Fleet Battles"

So if you bought this game ...thinking that SFB wasnt trek...or SFC wasnt trek......did you even read the box?

I did....and that was the whole reason I bought the game in the first place...because I knew SFB to be a tested and structured gaming system....even though I never played it...I had played other types of wargaming...

It was once asserted that "the people" didnt want SFB in any future games...so Erik put it to a poll....and the poll was overwelmingingly in favor of SFB based SFC4...ofcorse the naysayers then discounted said poll as "biased" because not all SFC players came to Taldrens website...

If you take the chicken out of the soup and replace it with tofu, you can call it chicken soup all day....but it wont have the same flavor...no matter how you doctor it up.

So lets drop the EXTREMISTS comments and the like shall we...and please stop trying to sell me on the idea that you guys were inside anyones head at Taldren so you can share "Taldrens vision" with me....

I play Taldrens vision every day thank you..and the "read me" for it is chocked full of not only bug fixes for the game ...but rule fixes for the game also...all with Taldrens blessing...I can read...

If you think that SFC isnt based on SFB...and that SFB isnt Trek....go argue with the marketing Dept at interplay...even if SFB wasnt trek before SFC...it certainly is NOW...since the ruleset was used with Paramounts blessing....and that's Trek enough for me...

There are exacty three games based on SFB...and hundreds NOT...

There is plenty of room in Trek for everyone's tastes...wanting the game to follow the clear path it came from isnt extremism...it's quite the opposite...

[OlBuzzard]

Crim..  the simple truth is ..  no one is allowed to think "out side the box" of SFB ..  without getting their butt ripped a new one.

But ..  as Nanner said ..  different strokes for different folks.  I will add to that having seen the results of the SFB community and now this one...

... those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I am not angry with you personally.  But I do remember all the flame wars during the Taldren boards.  I remember the 8 page dissertation that was a charactor smear against my son.  At the core of that ... "SFB" ..  accept it or suffer the consequences.  There is a long list we could get into .. but I flatly refuse to..

If there is another game  ( and that is a BIG IF when it really gets down to it ) ...  I genuinely hope that we can move on and IF there were "ELEMENTS" of BOTH games ... and maybe the 3-D technology of BC ..  that might be worth looking into.  But, to once again start another flame war over this matter ..  NO .. NOT going to do it.

The reaction I see here suggests that there is a lack of desire for a "NEW" game.  Developers would be looking for something fresh ..  ideas with possibilities.  The idea that they would be wanting to simply "rehash" old ideas is unlikely.

If you find this truth offensive... I might suggest that the problem is not with me or anyone else.  The problem just might be something else ..  dunno why you and a few others cant see past SFB.  That is something I can not help.

[gplana]

I heard from Steve Cole over at ADB and he passed this along for me to post. (Anybody who doubts that this post is actually from him can email him and he'll confirm it, and in fact he put it on his BBS (www.starfleetgames.com/discus)so you'd know it was really from him.

"To the guys on the dynaverse/SFC discussion board. Glad to see you all have the same enthusiasm. I'm all for anything that can be done for SFC, either another deal for another product -- or a fan-operated project. I'd like to see SFB remain part of it but I am not going to go jump off a bridge if some future deal/project doesn't include SFB. If a "deal" happens I'll be happy to sign on and cash the checks and politely ask if they'd do a Mac version. If a "fan project" happens (when this mythical source code is released), well, I've already posted that I won't stand in the way."

Gary

[Toast]

What exactly do u mean by see past sfb? not being smart but do u mean like no drones ftrs ect? or somthing else i agree with the idea that a developer would want a fresh idea ect ect, i have heard like the show's but that would mean a fed dominated game and would lack variety and wouldn't be much of a combat simulation imo, i am new to the discussion so plz excuse.............

[KBF-Crim]

Thanks for the udate gary...and for stopping over...dont be a stranger...

Buzz...I'm not upset at all...only stating the obvious...SFB is TOO Trek... Trek ships...Trek races...Trek technolgy...Trek history...and my opinion is just as Valid as Nanners...

I'm sorry some idiot felt fit to harrass your son ...but it wasnt me...so dont hold it against me...

I would like to point out...that ANYONE can set up their own server...tweak it however they want...ships missions...the whole nine yards...

There is no "gun to the head" forcing anyone to use the ruleset...you want to loose the rule set or tweak it...do so...people are free to log in and play or not...

I would also like to point out...there have been a couple non tradiditonal servers...one with babylon 5 ships...there was no huge flame war over it...people logged in and played and had fun...

My main point being...SFC3 and SFB based SFC CAN co-exist...the freedom to use ....or not use the ruleset is up to the player...

I stopped bashing SFC3 LONG ago...and it was wrong to do so...it's a good game on it's own...but it lacked the detail that was provided in the abanoned rules set..

I heartily commend Nanner and other modders in their efforts to provide this detail in the form of mods...

But I'd like BOTH paths to be followed...I'm not selfish enough to demand that other fans give up their dreams....or make the erronious claim that their dreams are invalid...

If there is truely room for everyone in Trek...then there is room for the SFB fans too...

[NannerSlug]

Want to know the truth Crim? My wife bought the game because it was Star Trek (as a Christmas gift). When I first played a skirmish, I couldnt figure out why the Klingons had seeking photons and mine missed all the time. I later found out those were missiles. The more I found out about the game, the more I found it to be as far from star trek as it could be.

I stuck with the game because it was a fun game during sfc 1 and of course the people. The people I hung out with in the 9th were generally Star Trek people. I didnt know until sfc 2 where the roots of the game came from. The more I learned about the roots of the game, the more I learned about items which were left out or changed.

In my mind, things started to go way down hill when the game becaming nothing more than a contest of whom ever can out mirak or hydran the other guy (fighters and missiles). I also saw a lot of rules that were left out on all sides. Some where because it didnt make sense in real time - others were because they were deamed "too imbalancing" (narrow salvos, etc). Then it took a turn for the worse when everything had to be based on Die rolls instead of using what you might term a D100.. and there couldnt be any changes to what sfb cannon was. No room for other ideas. That was pretty much it for me.

Again, though, it is important to note that different people have different ideas of what is fun. That goes for all people. Sorry, SFB is not Trek, SFC is not SFB. Inspired by SFB, yes, but it is not SFB. If you were to really set things right with sfb - missiles speeds would be dropped down significantly as would the speed of plasma (among other things).

I guess I just wish people would just recognize its okay to have different tastes. It really is.

At the same time, though, you cannot call SFB trek - because while sfb is "inspired" by trek - it is NOT trek. (btw, we have been working HARD to try and bridge sfc2 and 3 with the Generations at War mod - its not easy, but its doable. )

[NannerSlug]

I would like to point out...that ANYONE can set up their own server...tweak it however they want...ships missions...the whole nine yards...

There is no "gun to the head" forcing anyone to use the ruleset...you want to loose the rule set or tweak it...do so...people are free to log in and play or not...

I would also like to point out...there have been a couple non tradiditonal servers...one with babylon 5 ships...there was no huge flame war over it...people logged in and played and had fun...

My main point being...SFC3 and SFB based SFC CAN co-exist...the freedom to use ....or not use the ruleset is up to the player...

I completely agree with this. I think that there is definitely room for both. It is simply a matter of taste.