Topic: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek  (Read 5822 times)

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Offline TheJudge

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2005, 06:58:10 pm »
Darn it, every one beat me to the punch.  Okay, since the new BSG is set up on a basis of naval combat (Oh, by the way Ron Moore use to play the online version of Harpoon back when it first came out on the net). 

A modern naval carrier group travels with four to six escorts (which is why Ron Moore has said 'of course there are other ships besides Battlestars, but most if not all of them have been destroyed and weren't shown').  The primary threat to a carrier during the cold war was land-based aircraft and enemy surface ships/submarines.  Soviet doctrine called for massive waves of bomber-launched anti-ship missiles attacking from 2-3 axis and more sub or surface-launched missiles to form a 3rd or 4th axis of attack.

American doctrine called for waves of fighter patrols assisted by radar and jamming aircraft (Hawkeye and Queers in the Navy, Raptors in BSG).  The F-14 was designed so that it could launch six Phoenix Missiles at six targets at a range of over 100 miles.  They would launch at bombers if the bombers had not launched missiles already, or at incoming missiles.  Medium range fighters (F-4 or F-14) would take out incoming missiles with Sparrow/Sidewinder shots.  Remaining missiles would be engaged by surface vessels firing Surface to Air missiles, and point defenses (Basic Missile Defense, Five Inch Guns, and Phalanx Cannons) would then fire at surviving missiles.  As a final measure, chaff and flares would be launched by all ships, and a cruiser or destroyer always sailed close to the carrier so they could 'jump in front of the bullet' to save the carrier - yes, naval doctrine calls for a smaller ship to sacrifice itself to protect the carrier.  They even carry decoys to make smaller ships LOOK like the carrier on radar so they will attract the missile instead of the carrier.

BSG combat works on very similar principles.  The Vipers are to take out incoming bombers and missiles farther out from the ship, while the ship itself has weapons as a last-ditch point defense effort.  They also are set up to provide a 'zone of fire' so intense that they can destroy entire waves of incoming fighters.  Lasers don't work well unless it's at close range, and projectiles can travel forever until some gravity source slows them down and eventually pulls them in.  That's why projectiles are far more deadly in space than some laser beam (which should be traveling so fast that it wouldn't be visible to the naked eye anyway...I mean look at real life lasers, do you see them passing through air or just reflecting off their target?)

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Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2005, 08:27:50 pm »
Darn it, every one beat me to the punch.  Okay, since the new BSG is set up on a basis of naval combat (Oh, by the way Ron Moore use to play the online version of Harpoon back when it first came out on the net). 

Pphhffftttt!!!

"online" version?

Some friends of mine and I played the pen & paper version using models and one guy's basement floor (which had blue tile of all things!!!)

Massive battles were fought as were minor sub hunts & a variety of other scenarios....

Between us all... we had over 500 models.... thousands of counters (needed to track all those missiles, aircraft, and heloes).... we had battles that lasted months....

Guess you can say I was into 'Harpoon'.

BTW, did you know the creator, Larry Bond, was a Naval Intel officer?  He also helped Clancy in the writing of "Red Storm Rising" and wrote 5 book that I know of and have read.
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2005, 09:20:48 pm »
I loved that game...the computer version anyway, I never had anyone who'd play the board game with me.

I loved the Mediterranean scenarios.  Leading the Soviet Navy's breakout through the Bosphurs(sp?) and into the Eastern Med...Oh yes.  I also remember a scenario where the smaller NATO countrys had to try and stop the Soviet surge without US support...God that was hard.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
                                                                 ---------Rod Serling, The Last Flight

Offline Dracho

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2005, 09:27:22 pm »
Starbuck should have been more like Demi Moore in GI Jane.   ;)


Now, the Meteor's shooting down V-1 buzz bombs.. they actually used to fly beside them, put thier wing under the bomb's, then tip it up and cause it to spiral into the sea or the ground..

Talk about a big brass pair!
The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2005, 09:42:47 pm »
As long as you are talking about brass balls.... how about the Russian WWII aviators who would ram their planes into German bombers just after bailing out....

They had plenty of planes but not enough pilots so it was.... acceptable.
Political Correctness is really Political Censorship

A tax code should exist to procure the funds necessary for the operation of government, not to manipulate human or business behavior.

A nocens dies in loricatus est melior quam a bonus dies procul opus.

A bad peace is even worse than war."  --  Tacitus

"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it" -Claude Castonguay

Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2005, 09:48:49 pm »
So acceptable sections of the pilot manuals were devoted to the best techniques, in fact.

One method that MIGHT leave you a flyable plane involved slicing through the German's control surfaces with your propellor, if I remember right.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
                                                                 ---------Rod Serling, The Last Flight

Offline KBF-Angel Slayer

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2005, 11:11:49 am »
One aspect that everyone seems to be forgetting:  The  reason most of the new fighters are not going to 'bullets', for want of a better term, is the simple fact that projectile weapons have one major disadvantage:  when jets were first used, they would actually shoot themselves down, due to the fact that they  would fire their guns, and literally run into their own ammo.
   The laws of physics would apply in deep space as well.  You could only get X speed out of the ammunition, and then you would probably shoot yourself down due to being at a higher velocity than it was.


NPR is a lot like NASCAR.  Two hundred miles an hour in a circle, and you end up right back where you started with nothing but lost time for the effort.


Offline TheJudge

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2005, 02:19:56 pm »
Bear, I remember several fond games of Harpoon, the board version of course.  I also remember kicking the butt of my own ship's captain in one scenario.  :)   Now, the big question...how many of you still keep up with the computer version?  Does anyone have H3 besides me?

Angel, that would be possible, but the bullets begin with speed of the craft and accelerate as they are fired, so the viper would have to boost its speed above that of the projecticle...
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2005, 04:29:57 pm »

Quote
An entire infrastructure has been built around the productions, staffed by people whose involvement in the Franchise goes back over two decades. The dedication, passion, and talent of these artisans and craftsmen cannot be overstated. The unsung heroes of Trek, the people who sweat every detail, who take the time to think through continuity and try to make the vast universe consistent, [/color]

 :o

<bitter cynic mode>

Umm.... which series is he talking about again?

</bitter cynic mode>

-S'Cipio the Cynic

Ah, but the difference is that he TOLD US BSG would be different, he didn't try to hide the changes or blow them off. 

You misunderstood the point of my post.  ;) I wasn't talking about BSG, old or new.  Rather, I was questioning who these unsung heros of Star Trek are, who sweat every detail and take time to think through continuity and keep the whole vast universe consistent.   I don't think they signed up for Enterprise.  (Or maybe the just took a three-year  coffee break.  Union rules, don't you know.)

-S'Cipio
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."  - James Madison (chief author of the Constitution)

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Offline Dracho

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2005, 09:31:59 pm »
I used to waste hours with the Admiral's edition.  Is H3 worth picking up?

Bear, I remember several fond games of Harpoon, the board version of course.  I also remember kicking the butt of my own ship's captain in one scenario.  :)   Now, the big question...how many of you still keep up with the computer version?  Does anyone have H3 besides me?

Angel, that would be possible, but the bullets begin with speed of the craft and accelerate as they are fired, so the viper would have to boost its speed above that of the projecticle...
The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

Offline TheJudge

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2005, 09:50:01 pm »
Most definitely.  They took the H2 engine and updated it, plus they regularly update both the game engine and databases as well as continue to produce new scenarios.  With some of the changes they've made, the Russians are quite hard to crack thanks to their impressive point defenses (they really show what radar-aimed auto cannons can really do).  They also have a very good EU vs US amphib assault and have really improved the SAM modelling.  :)

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Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2005, 10:21:55 pm »
Haven't really kept up with it since the original Harpoon came out....

Should probably check H3 out.
Political Correctness is really Political Censorship

A tax code should exist to procure the funds necessary for the operation of government, not to manipulate human or business behavior.

A nocens dies in loricatus est melior quam a bonus dies procul opus.

A bad peace is even worse than war."  --  Tacitus

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Offline TheJudge

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2005, 10:58:38 pm »
He who can master the data controls the world.

Offline Dracho

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2005, 11:25:09 pm »
I have a feeling my wife is going to be annoyed at you for sending me that link.. I think I detect a huge time waster in the near future.. ;D


Thanks.
The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

Offline TheJudge

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2005, 01:21:11 am »
I'm waiting avidly for the H3 multiplayer that's coming out soon.  It's worth the pennies for that one...
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Offline Villa64

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2005, 09:16:02 pm »
One aspect that everyone seems to be forgetting:  The  reason most of the new fighters are not going to 'bullets', for want of a better term, is the simple fact that projectile weapons have one major disadvantage:  when jets were first used, they would actually shoot themselves down, due to the fact that they  would fire their guns, and literally run into their own ammo.
   The laws of physics would apply in deep space as well.  You could only get X speed out of the ammunition, and then you would probably shoot yourself down due to being at a higher velocity than it was.

I think the ammo leaves the aircraft under a formula like:

(speed of aircraft) + (muzzle velocity of the gun) = speed of the rounds as they exit the gun

The bullet isnt going to fly backward in the gun because the aircraft flies "faster than a speeding bullet".

Same for missiles.  Some missiles drop away from the aircraft before the motor ignites.  For that short period, the missile velocity doesnt drop to zero, it remains close to the speed of the aircraft at the time of release (adjusting for drag and gravity, of course).

In space, there is no drag, so the ordnance shouldnt have anything slowing it down at all.  Note that a high powered gun would slow a spacecraft though, depending upon the mass and velocity of the round.  I imagine that something could be done to try to minimize the effects of 'equal and opposite gun reaction', but not sure what that would be or how effective it would be.

I think the hazard in BSG's case is that for every space battle, there is going to be a "moving mine field" until the ordnance hits a planet or something.  That field of bullets is going to travel for a long time, potentially.  The comparison to our time is duds, mines, and other, but in our case they dont move around too much.  I guess a naval mine might drift around.  But at least you can fairly accurately chart and mark the main hazard.  In BSG's case, the hazards continue to move out.

Villa
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Offline TheJudge

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2005, 12:13:37 pm »
The F-4 was the first fighter aircraft designed to use MISSILES as their main armament.  They never installed an internal cannon on that aircraft because they believed 'bullets' were finally outmoded.

After a few were shot down in Vietnam by bullets, they designed and installed gun pods to allow the pilots to use cannons to shoot down enemy aircraft.  Since then, every single fighter carries an internal cannon, usually 20mm, and they do not run into their own bullets.  That problem was a design flaw easily corrected.

I'd imagine the colonials probably had a similar problem to overcome when working on the Viper Mk 1.  To assume they couldn't overcome that problem would be idiotic. 
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Offline KBF-Angel Slayer

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2005, 12:28:36 pm »
I never said they couldn't overcome it, I said that was one of the problems they ran into.  Projectile weaponry will be here to stay.  It is the most efficient means of engaging in close combat in the air.  Missiles, especially heat seekers, don't care if it is a bad guy or a good guy.
   They just want to go boom on something.  Even the sun works at times.


NPR is a lot like NASCAR.  Two hundred miles an hour in a circle, and you end up right back where you started with nothing but lost time for the effort.


Offline Villa64

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2005, 12:58:24 pm »
The F-4 was the first fighter aircraft designed to use MISSILES as their main armament.  They never installed an internal cannon on that aircraft because they believed 'bullets' were finally outmoded.

After a few were shot down in Vietnam by bullets, they designed and installed gun pods to allow the pilots to use cannons to shoot down enemy aircraft.  Since then, every single fighter carries an internal cannon, usually 20mm, and they do not run into their own bullets.  That problem was a design flaw easily corrected.

I'd imagine the colonials probably had a similar problem to overcome when working on the Viper Mk 1.  To assume they couldn't overcome that problem would be idiotic. 


I think there were some century series fighters that were pre-F4 in terms of missile as main armament.  Maybe as early as the F89.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/modern_flight/mf30.htm
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Ron Moore Talks Star Trek
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2005, 04:57:12 pm »
Actually, the F-106 had an internal gun.  It replaced the F-102, which did not.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
                                                                 ---------Rod Serling, The Last Flight