Topic: OOB and SFC

[GDA-Agave]

Well, as far limiting the amount of big capital ships, instead of the whole OOB idea which seems to be so popular right now, why can't we try using the Fixed Capital Ships idea which the SFC3 crowd used.? ?This idea clearly states that each side/empire could only have so many of each category of capital ship on the server at any one time, NO SHIP ASSIGNMENTS.? ?

Example:? ?(per side)

1 x BB
2-3 x DN
4-6 x BCH

or

Example:? (per empire)

1 x DN
3 x BCH

This idea skips the whole 'posting to a forum for assign', 'posting to a forum to switch ships' which seems like so much work, and need additional rules.

Positives of this idea:

(1)? you can easily check if a side/empire has more than its share of big capital ships on by just looking on the server.? If each of these type ships are clearly defined, all you would have to do is right click on all the opposing pilots names and count the BCHs, DNs, and BBs.
(2)? underplayed side/empire would always have it full compliment of big capital ships on the server.? ?This would help the underplayed races to hold important hexes against the sides/empires which have more pilots all 24 hrs of every day.
(3) making these ships less expensive that the biggest non-restricted ships would allow pilots to fly these big ships who might not normally get assigned one.
(3) LESS RULES CONCERNING HAVING TO POST STATUS, switching, production, BPs for production, when to build, what to build, what to convert, BPs to convert, etc.,? WHERE DOES IT ALL END!!!
(4) You could expand this rule to cover drone bombardment ships, pure escorts, anything!!

(continued on next post)

[GDA-Agave]

Now, as far as DNs and their escorts.

Since everyone seems to love OOB and all its ramifications, why not restrict what can restrict what can escort DNs/BBs?

Just include a rule saying, "No DNs/BBs can be drafted by an allied DN/BB.? ?If this happens, the extra DN will have to disengage from the mission (which one is up to the admins, or even both as Kroma suggested)."? This would be an exception to the normal disengagement rule we've been using for awhile, and would cover instances where allied DNs are accidentally drafted by their allies.? ?If a pilot is purposefully drafting another DN over and over, then a penalty would be assessed against him.

Seems a simple addition to all the rules we've been using for the past few servers.


Agave

[GDA-Agave]

Ok, final thoughts.

It just seems to me that we have taken the variety, and flavor of the different ships a pilot can fly.? ? With the prompting of "Cheese! That's cheese!? It creates an unfair advantage!" we have limited just about every specialized ship that is in the shiplist these past servers.? ? How overwhelmed do you think a new pilot feels when they log into a server and get all the numerous rules told to them, and are told they have to "go through channels" to fly the ship they learned to fly from the single player missions.? ?Where is it all gonna end?? ?Are we going to have to setup future servers with stock SFB tournament ships so we can all know that these ships we designed for fair and equal play?? ?That's where we going folks, in my humble opinion.? ?And it's sapping the enjoyment I get from this game.? ? AND I REALLY LOVE THIS GAME!!

Is all these complicated rules just a sign of something much deeper?? ?Have we all just stopped playing this game to have fun?? ?To get on a server and enjoy flying with friends without having to worry about the pressures we experience in the real world.? ?I'll give you a very example that I've noticed over the last few servers I've flown.? Pilot X is assigned a ship, usually a big capital one.? ?He gleefully takes this ship out to the front line to engage the enemy.? ?If he succeeds in destroying lots of enemy ships and can bring the ship back to the spacedock in one piece, he is applauded, congratulated, etc.? ?Now, if he promptly gets killed, he is greeted with..........well...........other responses.? ?Only in a few instances have I heard his fellow pilots say to him, "I know you're disappointed you lost that ship, but DID YOU HAVE FUN?"? ?In the end, isn't that what we have all come to play on the SFC2 dyna servers want?? TO HAVE SOME FUN!!? ? The attitudes of our pilot base is really starting to have an effect upon our community.? ?Have some of you not started to notice that some of our best pilots no longer want whatever ships we're limiting if they can't take it up to the front line without incurring all the negative crap he will get if he loses it.

Think about it folks.? ?Because what we do as the main pilot/admins will determine whether we will have a pilot base who will even want to fly on these dyna servers.? ?We hold the future of this gaming community in our hands.? ? Let's try to treat it a little better before we alienate each other.


Agave

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

 

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I'll give you a very example that I've noticed over the last few servers I've flown.? Pilot X is assigned a ship, usually a big capital one.? ?He gleefully takes this ship out to the front line to engage the enemy.? ?If he succeeds in destroying lots of enemy ships and can bring the ship back to the spacedock in one piece, he is applauded, congratulated, etc.? ?Now, if he promptly gets killed, he is greeted with..........well...........other responses.? ?Only in a few instances have I heard his fellow pilots say to him, "I know you're disappointed you lost that ship, but DID YOU HAVE FUN?"?

I disagree with you on the OOB aspect. I like OOB, and am not fond of a "so many on at once" rule. I prefer the big ship to be gone after I kill it, whereas with the latter rule a new one can pop right back on.

I TOTALLY agree with you on your above point, however. I've stated over and over in the Gorn forums that the ships are available to all Gorn, and I don't care much if you break one.

I'll even give a ship to you, if you give up your traitorous ways and come home.(Bastard.)

-S'Cipio

Edited to remove all the weird "?"'s that the forum dumped all over it.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Great posting Agave I agree with you 100% with the exception of the BBs flying together rule, I just say in regard to that that they not be allowed to collect VCs nor force the disengagement rule if flying in tandem unless they fight an equal force.  With no VCs to be gained and no disengagement enforced, they will do a much better job of policing themselves.

[KBF-Kurok]

 

[Bob Graham]

AMEN BROTHER AGAVE!!!

[Kroma BaSyl]

I disagree with you on the OOB aspect. I like OOB, and am not fond of a "so many on at once" rule. I prefer the big ship to be gone after I kill it, whereas with the latter rule a new one can pop right back on.

This is my one objection to this rule as well. How about if the ship (BB,DN, or BCH) is killed that team is down that ship for 24 hours. This would remove it from the board and the action for a period giving the opposing force the relief from having to continually fighting it for a time, but without it being a permenant lose the RMs will be more generous in spreading the wealth, and the pilots won't have to worry about DH bitchin them out.  Some minor VCs could also be awarded for the kill in this setup too, I would think, but I wouldn't make them enough to discourage junior pilots from getting the chance to fly them.

I like this idea a lot otherwise Agave. 

[KBF-Crim]

I'll give you a very example that I've noticed over the last few servers I've flown.? Pilot X is assigned a ship, usually a big capital one.? ?He gleefully takes this ship out to the front line to engage the enemy.? ?If he succeeds in destroying lots of enemy ships and can bring the ship back to the spacedock in one piece, he is applauded, congratulated, etc.? ?Now, if he promptly gets killed, he is greeted with..........well...........other responses.? ?Only in a few instances have I heard his fellow pilots say to him, "I know you're disappointed you lost that ship, but DID YOU HAVE FUN?"? ?In the end, isn't that what we have all come to play on the SFC2 dyna servers want?? TO HAVE SOME FUN!!? ?

The attitudes of our pilot base is really starting to have an effect upon our community.? ?Have some of you not started to notice that some of our best pilots no longer want whatever ships we're limiting if they can't take it up to the front line without incurring all the negative crap he will get if he loses it.

Think about it folks.? ?Because what we do as the main pilot/admins will determine whether we will have a pilot base who will even want to fly on these dyna servers.? ?We hold the future of this gaming community in our hands.? ? Let's try to treat it a little better before we alienate each other.


Agave

Although I agree with the spirit of your posting,

I take slight issue with the two above quotes,

The Gorn have flown with us several times on a few different servers, and this does NOT happen in our camp...and neither I ,nor coalition high command would stand for it....

Think about it.

These ship we fly are assets in a war game....assets in a war game are destroyed...it's part of the frickin game...it is the nature of the beast...

You CANNOT play a wargame honestly and expect to NOT loose assets...

If some people on either side are having a problem dealing with that fact in an adult manner...then that needs to be addressed on a case by case basis....if Pressure from command doesnt work to curb this attitude....then peer pressure SHOULD ....

I recently posted a general chew out on sportsmanship for the Coalition and anyone else who might listen...But this was addressing more of how we players and commanders interact with each other as Empire players rather than team mates....

If you are having problems with team mates....address it...but dont view such behaviour as universal practice...because it is not.

This is a game...the majority of us see it as such...

Getting bent out of shape is one thing ( we ALL do from time to time)...but being abusive is another...

Such behaviour is shunned and distained by us as a group...and by me personally...

Thanks

[Capt Jeff]

I disagree with you on the OOB aspect. I like OOB, and am not fond of a "so many on at once" rule. I prefer the big ship to be gone after I kill it, whereas with the latter rule a new one can pop right back on.



-S'Cipio

Something like what Kroma just posted......

Say 2 DN's, 4 BCH, 2 Specialties are allowed per side.....(would vary per server of course)

Say there is a "Build cycle"  every X amount of days.  If a DN was lost, that side would be down until the next cycle, and VC's would be subtracted from that side to replace the lost ship.

I would like to do something like this if SS3 ever gets off the ground....

[FPF-DieHard]

If you don't like OOB the soulution is simple, setup a server with no OOB. ?If Dizzy and J'inn can do it, anyone can (except for maybe Hexx).

That said, I think we may have taken things a bit too far and need to loosen up a bit.? Many of the ships controled by OOB quite frankly don't need to be.

We also need to "close the gap" between the "haves" and the "have nots" in OOB.? The gap between CCH and BCH in my opinion is acceptable but once those BCHs get refitted into BCV/BCS ships, it's too much.? Un-restricted ships need to get better as the OOB ships do.

Wars are economic, I like the fact that loosing a captial ships hurt a sides ability to fight.? ?It should, it may be a game but it is a WAR game.

Stay tuned . . . .

[Dizzy]

Some general thoights...

What we have on SGO4 is fine. It supports the player base.

Lessons learned, tho, there are too many ships in dock leading me to believe we had too many points to spend. A revised BP/CP of 3/3/3 and a floating BP should suffice. Make the capitol ships more tight this way. Also, to make build rounds easier, if the server runs a year a day, have a build cycle every 2 years, but plan them out every 4 years ahead of time. so they only need to be messed with every 4 days.

Some ships dont need to be 'specialed' out because they suck to much to be built. So make em free. Easy to do, see what was built this server, and compare to what wasnt.

VP's for ship losses suck. Maybe even rid of them for capitol ships. Losing one should be penalty enough. That being said, tho, total attrition should come into play vs map VC's to keep in check a server being won over a land grab thru sheer plsyer numbers. Say, total attrition per VC round affects the Map VC % somehow, or capitol ship attrition or something. Map VC's need to not be the sole form of determining a server victory.

3-way servers suck.

Hidden VC's and R/P need to be carefully explained and setup so that they are fair and balanced. Best not to use them at all if you can sell such a plain straight up server this way.

Ship transfers... I think we are on to something. This 24hr method allowed a lot of peeps to fly the ships they wanted... It was a slight pain for the RM's to keep track of it all, but it worked. To make it work better, assign the same ship to 2 or 3 ppl. When one transfers it to spacedock, the others may take it out. Sure it puts it on the map more, but it is also a more present target. This would ease the transfer posting and allow us to cut it back to once a day or every two days with the same ship assigned to multiple peeps.



 

[Kroma BaSyl]

I'll give you a very example that I've noticed over the last few servers I've flown.? Pilot X is assigned a ship, usually a big capital one.? ?He gleefully takes this ship out to the front line to engage the enemy.? ?If he succeeds in destroying lots of enemy ships and can bring the ship back to the spacedock in one piece, he is applauded, congratulated, etc.? ?Now, if he promptly gets killed, he is greeted with..........well...........other responses.? ?Only in a few instances have I heard his fellow pilots say to him, "I know you're disappointed you lost that ship, but DID YOU HAVE FUN?"? ?In the end, isn't that what we have all come to play on the SFC2 dyna servers want?? TO HAVE SOME FUN!!? ?

The attitudes of our pilot base is really starting to have an effect upon our community.? ?Have some of you not started to notice that some of our best pilots no longer want whatever ships we're limiting if they can't take it up to the front line without incurring all the negative crap he will get if he loses it.

Think about it folks.? ?Because what we do as the main pilot/admins will determine whether we will have a pilot base who will even want to fly on these dyna servers.? ?We hold the future of this gaming community in our hands.? ? Let's try to treat it a little better before we alienate each other.


Agave

Although I agree with the spirit of your posting,

I take slight issue with the two above quotes,

The Gorn have flown with us several times on a few different servers, and this does NOT happen in our camp...and neither I ,nor coalition high command would stand for it....

Think about it.

These ship we fly are assets in a war game....assets in a war game are destroyed...it's part of the frickin game...it is the nature of the beast...

You CANNOT play a wargame honestly and expect to NOT loose assets...

If some people on either side are having a problem dealing with that fact in an adult manner...then that needs to be addressed on a case by case basis....if Pressure from command doesnt work to curb this attitude....then peer pressure SHOULD ....

I recently posted a general chew out on sportsmanship for the Coalition and anyone else who might listen...But this was addressing more of how we players and commanders interact with each other as Empire players rather than team mates....

If you are having problems with team mates....address it...but dont view such behaviour as universal practice...because it is not.

This is a game...the majority of us see it as such...

Getting bent out of shape is one thing ( we ALL do from time to time)...but being abusive is another...

Such behaviour is shunned and distained by us as a group...and by me personally...

Thanks

I have flown for both sides multiple times, and I have yet to find a discernable difference in the attitudes and behavior of either. There are good and bad apples in each camp. There are the hyper competitive types in each as well. I have heard both coalition and alliance pilots grip about access to OOB ships, whether they don't feel worthy to ask for them or have been turned down when they have asked. In general, poor behavior and negativity isn't shunned enough by either side. The other thing I have found universal is that all sides think their S**t don't stink and that these are issues that have only to do with their opponents.  If you want specific examples PM me and I will out line them.

I do agree however, with the spirit of your post that this behavior is unacceptable, from anyone.

[GDA-Agave]

I'll give you a very example that I've noticed over the last few servers I've flown.? Pilot X is assigned a ship, usually a big capital one.? ?He gleefully takes this ship out to the front line to engage the enemy.? ?If he succeeds in destroying lots of enemy ships and can bring the ship back to the spacedock in one piece, he is applauded, congratulated, etc.? ?Now, if he promptly gets killed, he is greeted with..........well...........other responses.? ?Only in a few instances have I heard his fellow pilots say to him, "I know you're disappointed you lost that ship, but DID YOU HAVE FUN?"? ?In the end, isn't that what we have all come to play on the SFC2 dyna servers want?? TO HAVE SOME FUN!!? ?

The attitudes of our pilot base is really starting to have an effect upon our community.? ?Have some of you not started to notice that some of our best pilots no longer want whatever ships we're limiting if they can't take it up to the front line without incurring all the negative crap he will get if he loses it.

Think about it folks.? ?Because what we do as the main pilot/admins will determine whether we will have a pilot base who will even want to fly on these dyna servers.? ?We hold the future of this gaming community in our hands.? ? Let's try to treat it a little better before we alienate each other.


Agave

Although I agree with the spirit of your posting,

I take slight issue with the two above quotes,

The Gorn have flown with us several times on a few different servers, and this does NOT happen in our camp...and neither I ,nor coalition high command would stand for it....

Think about it.

These ship we fly are assets in a war game....assets in a war game are destroyed...it's part of the frickin game...it is the nature of the beast...

You CANNOT play a wargame honestly and expect to NOT loose assets...

If some people on either side are having a problem dealing with that fact in an adult manner...then that needs to be addressed on a case by case basis....if Pressure from command doesnt work to curb this attitude....then peer pressure SHOULD ....

I recently posted a general chew out on sportsmanship for the Coalition and anyone else who might listen...But this was addressing more of how we players and commanders interact with each other as Empire players rather than team mates....

If you are having problems with team mates....address it...but dont view such behaviour as universal practice...because it is not.

This is a game...the majority of us see it as such...

Getting bent out of shape is one thing ( we ALL do from time to time)...but being abusive is another...

Such behaviour is shunned and distained by us as a group...and by me personally...

Thanks

Crim,

I'm sorry if you felt I was pointing my finger at the coalition leadership.? ? I realized that when I put in the phrase "last few servers" that they were mostly the GW servers.? ? I WAS NOT making a pointed complaint at the coaltion, but a general point I have been found true on all sides.? (as Kroma posted to as well.)? ?I certianly apologized if you felt these statements directed at you or any of your fleetmates.? ?I can promise you they were not.? ?I have really enjoyed flying coalition on the GW servers and having the chance to mix-it-up with some pilots I don't normally get to fly with.

My statements above are all general opinion statements I have been thinking about lately, and I just felt like venting.? ?I am a type of person who would seek out a specific person if I had a problem with them.? ? Trust, I ain't shy.

I hope this post has helped shed some light on how I meant my post to be read.

Thanks,

Agave

[KBF-Crim]

I'll give you a very example that I've noticed over the last few servers I've flown.? Pilot X is assigned a ship, usually a big capital one.? ?He gleefully takes this ship out to the front line to engage the enemy.? ?If he succeeds in destroying lots of enemy ships and can bring the ship back to the spacedock in one piece, he is applauded, congratulated, etc.? ?Now, if he promptly gets killed, he is greeted with..........well...........other responses.? ?Only in a few instances have I heard his fellow pilots say to him, "I know you're disappointed you lost that ship, but DID YOU HAVE FUN?"? ?In the end, isn't that what we have all come to play on the SFC2 dyna servers want?? TO HAVE SOME FUN!!? ?

The attitudes of our pilot base is really starting to have an effect upon our community.? ?Have some of you not started to notice that some of our best pilots no longer want whatever ships we're limiting if they can't take it up to the front line without incurring all the negative crap he will get if he loses it.

Think about it folks.? ?Because what we do as the main pilot/admins will determine whether we will have a pilot base who will even want to fly on these dyna servers.? ?We hold the future of this gaming community in our hands.? ? Let's try to treat it a little better before we alienate each other.


Agave

Although I agree with the spirit of your posting,

I take slight issue with the two above quotes,

The Gorn have flown with us several times on a few different servers, and this does NOT happen in our camp...and neither I ,nor coalition high command would stand for it....

Think about it.

These ship we fly are assets in a war game....assets in a war game are destroyed...it's part of the frickin game...it is the nature of the beast...

You CANNOT play a wargame honestly and expect to NOT loose assets...

If some people on either side are having a problem dealing with that fact in an adult manner...then that needs to be addressed on a case by case basis....if Pressure from command doesnt work to curb this attitude....then peer pressure SHOULD ....

I recently posted a general chew out on sportsmanship for the Coalition and anyone else who might listen...But this was addressing more of how we players and commanders interact with each other as Empire players rather than team mates....

If you are having problems with team mates....address it...but dont view such behaviour as universal practice...because it is not.

This is a game...the majority of us see it as such...

Getting bent out of shape is one thing ( we ALL do from time to time)...but being abusive is another...

Such behaviour is shunned and distained by us as a group...and by me personally...

Thanks

I have flown for both sides multiple times, and I have yet to find a discernable difference in the attitudes and behavior of either. There are good and bad apples in each camp. There are the hyper competitive types in each as well. I have heard both coalition and alliance pilots grip about access to OOB ships, whether they don't feel worthy to ask for them or have been turned down when they have asked. In general, poor behavior and negativity isn't shunned enough by either side. The other thing I have found universal is that all sides think their S**t don't stink and that these are issues that have only to do with their opponents.? If you want specific examples PM me and I will out line them.

I do agree however, with the spirit of your post that this behavior is unacceptable, from anyone.

Kroma....Agave noted a specific example of INTER TEAM problems and eluded that this may be symptomatic in the community at large....I addressed this to the best of my knowledge as a coaltion player since the D2's inception...

Our crap stinks like anyone elses....but I have NEVER...EVER been yelled at for loosing a ship...by ANYONE....and trust me...I've lost my share and then some.....nor would I ever get bent because a player looses a ship...

Bitching about access to OOB ships isnt the same as jumping down a teamates throat for loosing a ship....

Complaints about balance and uberness isnt the same as jumping down a teamates throat for loosing a ship...

I wasnt trying to point fingers at anyone...and my team isnt filled with non stinking angels .....but this certain behaviour isnt present in our ranks....and I wont let the impression that it is, stand without rebuttal...

As I said...I recently publicly chastised MY OWN TEAM for what I felt was poor sportsmanship in public discourse with the alliance ....such discourse started by the alliance I might add...

So once again...if you have a problem with players attitudes ...address it...to do otherwise is to enable the same behavoiur to go unchecked to the detriment of your whole team...

Because I assure you...I personally dont stand for this behaviour amongst my peers...and if this became a problem...they wouldnt be my peers for long...

So in essance....YES...I agree that all players and commanders alike should keep in mind that this is a game....for pleasure....

You certainly wouldnt expect to play F&E and NOT loose a TON of ships...sometimes faster than your production can keep up with...

Placing too much importance on ship loss will ensure that capitol ships are never given to non aces.....those non aces will be marginalized...and they will never have a chance to improve their skills....

Once again...not trying to ruffle anyones feathers....it's just good advice...

It's all about the game.

[KBF-Crim]

Crim,

I'm sorry if you felt I was pointing my finger at the coalition leadership.? ? I realized that when I put in the phrase "last few servers" that they were mostly the GW servers.? ? I WAS NOT making a pointed complaint at the coaltion, but a general point I have been found true on all sides.? (as Kroma posted to as well.)? ?I certianly apologized if you felt these statements directed at you or any of your fleetmates.? ?I can promise you they were not.? ?I have really enjoyed flying coalition on the GW servers and having the chance to mix-it-up with some pilots I don't normally get to fly with.

My statements above are all general opinion statements I have been thinking about lately, and I just felt like venting.? ?I am a type of person who would seek out a specific person if I had a problem with them.? ? Trust, I ain't shy.

I hope this post has helped shed some light on how I meant my post to be read.

Thanks,

Agave

Heh...I knew where the finger was pointed ...just didnt know which finger

No...I didnt think it was addressed to specific people...

And let me apologise for giving the impression that I was pointing a finger back at the Alliance...I dont fly alliance so I dont know first hand what goes on over there....but we hear tidbits...and we see off hand comments...

I basiclly wanted to echo what you said while pointing out that at least in this one area...we run a pretty tight ship...

I feel bad enough when I lose a ship...I'd be crushed if someone started barking at me for it...

Face it...most of us are hopeless junkies...we are WAY beyond help... .....but this could surely turn off anyone who just joined up...

[FPF-DieHard]

As I said...I recently publicly chastised MY OWN TEAM for what I felt was poor sportsmanship in public discourse with the alliance ....such discourse started by the alliance I might add...

Crim, you take cheap sots every chance you get.? You are part of the problem.

EDIT:  WTF is with these damned "?"

[Dizzy]

Our crap stinks like anyone elses....but I have NEVER...EVER been yelled at for loosing a ship...by ANYONE....and trust me...I've lost my share and then some.....nor would I ever get bent because a player looses a ship...

Bitching about access to OOB ships isnt the same as jumping down a teamates throat for loosing a ship....

Complaints about balance and uberness isnt the same as jumping down a teamates throat for loosing a ship...

Gotta jump in here... I noticed that the coalition will give ANYONE a capitol ship. And they silently cringe when it is lost, but no one gets yelled at. I'm a bit surprised by the civility of it all. It seems the attitude over here on this side of the fence is to spread around the iron, make peeps happy and stuff.

Now, I havent been around for the bitch sessions I hear DH gives each time someone messes up, but I wouldnt put up with it for a second. Last time he bitched at me I simply turned off TS. he has his moments.

[FPF-DieHard]

Now, I havent been around for the bitch sessions I hear DH gives each time someone messes up, but I wouldnt put up with it for a second. Last time he bitched at me I simply turned off TS. he has his moments.

GO make another server that rewards picking on Newbs and STFU