Topic: shuttles

[deadmansix]

OK this is a hot topic, shuttles have many uses i.e scatter packs, wild weasels and the like, and even an extra P3 from time to time.
 but due to the fighter interaction with other fighters/PFs it has gotten to a point where they are used as decoys to draw off fighters and this is not right and should be considered a bug in my view.

 and here are my reasons for this,

 1. shuttels types can be detected.
 2. admen shuttels pose not threat to the fighters or the mother ship
 3. the use exploits a flaw in the fighter/PF interaction

 this is my view feel free to express yours, not meant to be a flame war but a civil debate and discusion.

[Hexx]

<sigh>
Yes it's a bug. Its a know bug. Its an exploit of a bug.

BUT

There's nothing you can do about it.
other than

-Ban all shuttle launches once someone got fighters launched?

Not going to happen.

I'm trying to get into fighters myself now that the Lyrans have them.
It's simply something a carrier will have to learn to expect.

Once (if) the coding guys get the code maybe they can change it.

[Dizzy]

I agree it is an exploit but not a cheat.


I hear it is and has been legal in GZ and such. What to do about it? Mid server rule change! j/k.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Chalk it up to another reason not to depend on fighters...
Had it used against me already, too. Fotunatly, I learned a long time ago how to get around it...

[762_XC]

People will use it or not. I guess a lot of folks think fighters are cheesy and don't care if it takes a bug exploit to beat them. I honestly don't know. I think if we were talking about a bug affecting plasma or PPD lock on we'd be having a different conversation however.

I'm done fighting this fight. If you need to use a bug to beat a carrier or Hydran go right ahead and do it.

Krueg:

1) I'd love to know how you're doing that. Mod ftrlist mb? 
2) Most Hydran line ships depend on fighters in some degree or another

[Corbomite]

I'm done fighting this fight. If you need to use a bug to beat a carrier or Hydran go right ahead and do it.

I don't need a bug, just a shuttle. Besides I don't see how a Volkswagon would help anyway. <snicker>

[SPQRPardek]

its a funny thing , over the years i have launched shuttles to distract enemy fighters and PF's and till yesterday i never had been called a cheater for it...and that is the last straw for this old Romulan. i will serve out the remainder of SG4 as RM for the Romulans..so get you smart ass remarks in while you can

[KBF-Kurok]

yea its cheating on the same level as starcastling  is.
<snicker>

[Villa64]

Pardek is an honorable pilot, and should not let the naysayers get to him.

[762_XC]

If I called you a cheater Pardek, I apologize. I was out of line.

[deadmansix]

 S

its a funny thing , over the years i have launched shuttles to distract enemy fighters and PF's and till yesterday i never had been called a cheater for it...and that is the last straw for this old Romulan. i will serve out the remainder of SG4 as RM for the Romulans..so get you smart ass remarks in while you can

 Pardek,things said in the frustration of the moment should not be taken to heart,or personally and I don't think it was meant as a direct attack on you personally as we know you to be an honorable pilot and person.

 but the shuttel tactic is getting to be a major problem and as I stated before there are shuttles that have valid uses and are threats that need to be eliminated but just straight ADMIN shuttels should not be the main target of a full flight of fighters that fire all there weapons like it was a ship and to me that is an exploitation of a bug and should be treated as such like we did with running the border and a few others that were a problem in the past.

yea its cheating on the same level as starcastling is.
<snicker>

 no its not as starcastling is a way to maximise weapon and Shields and does not exploit a fault in the basic game mechanics.

[Hexx]

 S

its a funny thing , over the years i have launched shuttles to distract enemy fighters and PF's and till yesterday i never had been called a cheater for it...and that is the last straw for this old Romulan. i will serve out the remainder of SG4 as RM for the Romulans..so get you smart ass remarks in while you can

 Pardek,things said in the frustration of the moment should not be taken to heart,or personally and I don't think it was meant as a direct attack on you personally as we know you to be an honorable pilot and person.

 but the shuttel tactic is getting to be a major problem and as I stated before there are shuttles that have valid uses and are threats that need to be eliminated but just straight ADMIN shuttels should not be the main target of a full flight of fighters that fire all there weapons like it was a ship and to me that is an exploitation of a bug and should be treated as such like we did with running the border and a few others that were a problem in the past.

yea its cheating on the same level as starcastling is.
<snicker>

 no its not as starcastling is a way to maximise weapon and Shields and does not exploit a fault in the basic game mechanics.

Again fantastic theory.
But  I believe fighters also fire at SP and SS (at least mine do)
So any rule would have to say
You can't lauch any kind of shuttle once someone has launched fighters
Somehow I don't see this being an acceptable compromise.

[FPF-DieHard]

Again fantastic theory.
But  I believe fighters also fire at SP and SS (at least mine do)
So any rule would have to say
You can't lauch any kind of shuttle once someone has launched fighters
Somehow I don't see this being an acceptable compromise.

Hexx, that makes no sense.

I have mixed feeling on this.  Is exploiting AI stupidity on any level exploiting a bug?

[Grim]

Seriously what use is there to launch admin shuttles, ok maybe you can use them to tractor them into esg to take some of the sting of it, thats about it.

I think its cheap using ai stupidity via the use of admin shuttles to pick off fighters, most hydran ships are dependant on fighters so watching them get picked off through the use of a cheap bug/exploit sucks.

But as previously mentioned unless there was some work on the code to effect the fighter interaction nothing can be done.

[Hexx]

Again fantastic theory.
But  I believe fighters also fire at SP and SS (at least mine do)
So any rule would have to say
You can't lauch any kind of shuttle once someone has launched fighters
Somehow I don't see this being an acceptable compromise.

Hexx, that makes no sense.

I have mixed feeling on this.  Is exploiting AI stupidity on any level exploiting a bug?

Hmm weird, just tested it and they don't ifre on SS's.
Could have sworn I had fighters kill one of mine before.

Anyway it's annoying , probably an exploit but not really needing a rule over.
1) It's not like your opponent has an unlimited number of shuttles

2) I'd consider dropping a normal shuttle to fool a pursuing opponent into thinking it was a SS or SP a valid
tactic. I'd consider dropping a shuttle to (hopefully) use up a ships AMD so I could sneak something through to be a valid tactic

3) Does it really hurt that much? At long range I've had a fighter group launch drones at a shuttle -simply recalled them to rearm.
At short raneg they fire a Ph3 or two to kill it.Hardly a game breaking weapon loss. Also how are they drawing fighters off?
A Spd 6 shuttle isn't exactly leading a spd 30 fighter on any kind of chase.


-Now all that being said I'm new to fighter use, so quite possibly there's something I'm missing.
But if there's not something I'm missing I don't see any of this as a problem, let alone one we need a rule for.

[Pestalence_XC]

The only thing I could see as a problem is if the player defending against a fighter loaded ship launches a Admin shuttle at the beginning of the mission at about range 60, then the defending player high tails towards the Fighter loaded ship in an arch.. this could draw the fighters off by 50+K from the intended target...

This is an exploit.. However, i could also see the Admin being used as an alternative to a sensor decoy that does not effect the main ship..

I can also see the counter to the Admin by Playing in F11 where everything shows up with distance and speed.. as soon as one sees an object moving spd 6, one could lock on to it with a LR weapon and blow it to pieces if one is in range with LR weapons.. for Fed, this would be Torps, for Hydran, this would be Hellbore, for ISC, this would be PPD, for Mirak and Klink this would be a High Speed Drone.. now this would take away from some of the Heavy Weapon capability of the fighter launching ship for a short time, but it is doable...

also, using the fighter Control panel a bit more should allow you to put the fighters into Defend me mode to keep them in close, and then re-assign Attack mode when you have the main enemy ship targeted.. yes this takes time, but it should re-orientent the fighters to their principal target...

Either way, there are ways to overcome the effect.. the races I can see at a disadvantage would be Lyr, Gorn, and Rom...

[Corbomite]

Fighters will (generally) attack the nearest target. The problem is lack of consistency. I have had them fly right past enemy fighters and actually attack the ship that I send them to (to much cheering by my crew). Other times they hit the fighters or another ship that got in the way. Not being able to predict what they will do and when is at the heart of the issue. The Admin shut just adds another layer of variables and is a damned nuisance to be sure.

[762_XC]

Fighter use has its own art form, just like saber dancing or any other tactic. Contrary to the beliefs of many it is not always a simple matter of launch and forget. This is especially true with a ship with a small number of fighters (like most Hydran line ships) and is especially true against a target with a lot of point defense.

In most battles there are a limited number of opportunities to launch your fighters and have them be effective. If you launch while your opponent is fully loaded for example, chances are he will pick off most of your group before they can even fire. If he is heading away or on an oblique he can probably evade them and pick them off at his leisure. Timing is critical to a succesful launch and opportunities are limited. Against a skilled opponent you may have only one or two good opportunities per match.

The shuttle exploit effectively negates those rare opportunities that do arise. If the non-fighter player makes a mistake and gets into a position where he is going to get hurt by fighters, it is a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card. At the very least the damage he willl take will be greatly reduced as the fighters ALWAYS (no Corb not sometimes) shoot a full salvo at the shuttle. It is not a simple matter of recalling and rearming as the opportunity has already been lost.

Furthermore, recalling automatically puts the carrier/Hydran back on the defensive as a good chunk of his firepower will now be offline for a minute or more.

[Corbomite]

I never said anything about shooting at shuttles so save the finger wagging.