Topic: X-Ship BP proposal

[Dizzy]

DH and I were working on a method for builds for xships and we never settled on anything. So this is what I came up with...

What say we have the X-ships available for purchase in the 2281 build with 1x 'x-tech' points, adding one more per year. So for 81, you get 1x 'X-tech' BP's in addition to your regular BP's. X-tech BP's can only be spent on X ships and up to half of your regular BP's may be spent on X-ships.

So for example, the Klinks have 4 BP's in 81, they also get 1x X-tech BP's so they could spend no more than 3x BP's total on xships while leaving 2 left for something else like a BC. Then in 83, they get 2 xtrech points and in 85 3 xtech points. Server finishes in 85-86.


Hrmmm. It sounds good to me.

[FPF-DieHard]

I was just going to bug you about this.   One of thos3e things we never finished talking about

PROBLEM:  X-ships are overpriced and not worth building in most cases

Solution:  Give the races additional money to be spent only on X-ships

Why not give every race a total of "XP" points equal to the BP? Set with the following costs:

DDX (Move cost .5)= 1XP or 1 CP
CLX (Move cost .67)= 2XP or 2 BP
CX (Move cost 1)=  3XP or 3 BP
BCHX (only one is the I-CCX)  6 XP or 6 BP


This allows people to build X-ships with BP/CPs if they so desire (no likely in most cases) and means we'll actually get to see these ships in the game.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Why the steep price on the CCX?

I don't see how the I-CCX is as powerful as 2 CXs.  2xPPD, 2xPl-R, 12xPh-1 and 6xPl-I on a CA hull is not as powerful and unbeatable as everyone thinks.

Remember, the I-CC series are BCHs in name only, just to give the ISC something to fight at the BCH level with.  As far as internals, etc., it's not much stronger than the I-CA it's built from.  I think the I-CC gets, as internals over an I-CA, are the 4 APR and 1 PPD...

Now, I'll concede that the I-CCX is a powerful ship, and is worth more than any one given CX, but nowhere near the power of 2 CXs.

I'd recommend a value of 4 points as the cost of the CCX, to reflect its relative power vs. other CXs, while reflecting the fact that it's not a super-ship capable of dusting 2 CXs regularly, and has a hard time against them...

[FPF-DieHard]

Why the steep price on the CCX?

You obviously don't know how to fly it 

The CCX can beat most BBs.   6 points is a bargain.

Don't believe me, I'll show you.

PS.   the CLX is a FRICKING STEAL at 2 points.

[762_XC]

OMG u guys are making my head hurt! Just leave it at BP's please.

[FPF-DieHard]

OMG u guys are making my head hurt! Just leave it at BP's please.

[FPF-DieHard]

OMG u guys are making my head hurt! Just leave it at BP's please.

Nobody will build and X-Chee ., . . uM, I mean, X-ships with the current build system.

It's not THAT complicated and only 1 person per side needs to understand it.

[Hexx]

OMG u guys are making my head hurt! Just leave it at BP's please.

Nobody will build and X-Chee ., . . uM, I mean, X-ships with the current build system.

It's not THAT complicated and only 1 person per side needs to understand it.

Seriously it's not.
Someone else had to originally expalin to DH and Dizzy that the ships would never be built .
Once that got through their thick skulls they cam up with the system that they could both understand.


Bascially it comes down to- do people want the "X" ships in the game?
-Remember they're not the Taldren ones, but ones designed to approximate SFB standards.
With X points some will be built, with BP points they won't.

[FPF-DieHard]

OMG u guys are making my head hurt! Just leave it at BP's please.

Nobody will build and X-Chee ., . . uM, I mean, X-ships with the current build system.

It's not THAT complicated and only 1 person per side needs to understand it.

Seriously it's not.
Someone else had to originally expalin to DH and Dizzy that the ships would never be built .
Once that got through their thick skulls they cam up with the system that they could both understand.


Bascially it comes down to- do people want the "X" ships in the game?
-Remember they're not the Taldren ones, but ones designed to approximate SFB standards.
With X points some will be built, with BP points they won't.

What the fury midget said.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Why the steep price on the CCX?

You obviously don't know how to fly it 

The CCX can beat most BBs. <snip>

And my CCX is BPVed what, 329?  That means it's going to face BBs all day, it's supposed to.  That doesn't change the matter at hand, which is, "Is the I-CCX worth 2 F-CXs, or 2 K-DXs, or 2 R-FHXs etc. etc."

Lets start with a comparison of your F-CX vs. my I-CCX...

Heavy Weapons:
Fed: 6xPhot, 2xDroB, 2xADD.  ISC: 2xPPD, 2xPl-R, 6xPl-I

Phasers:
Fed: 12 Ph-1, 4xFH, 3xLS/RS, 2xAll.  ISC: 12Ph-1, 2xFAL/FAR, 2xFH, 2xLS/RS, 2xAll.

Power: Fed - 46 (+12 from base CC), ISC - 52 (+8 from base CC)

Hull: Fed - 16 in typical 12F 4R config as per CC, ISC - 16 in 8F 8R config.

Shields: Fed 40-32-32-32.  ISC 40-40-32-32.

Gross Internals: Fed - 148 (296 doubled) ISC - 151 (302 doubled)

After all this, I still don't see how my CCX is worth 6 points, while the rest are worth 3.  Again, I say this.  The I-CCX is a BCH in name only.  It's still a CA where it counts, ie, in internals.  What you can do in that ship is, IMO, irrelevant to it's price, cause you can take a BCV or a F-CX and beat BBs with them too...   Actually, this could be the start of a new pricing scheme.  If DH can beat a BB with a ship, then it should be automatically BPVed at least 300 BPV, and be priced in the same range as an average BB for OOB, etc...

Now, once again, why does the I-CCX cost the same as 2 CXs?  I do admit that, among CA-hulled X-ships the I-CCX is probably the best one on the board, and therefore I can settle for a 4 point cost to reflect that, even though it could be considered as unfair, as the Rommie FHX gets 2xR, 2xS, 11 Ph-1s, which just about equals the power and destructive force of the I-CCX...

What would you do?  Bring up the Plasma CXs to near-ISC pricing schemes, or bring the ISC down closer to everyone else?

[Hexx]

Julin may have a point

To be fair all plasma,drone, or fighter using X ships should cost 4x as much as an Xship that doesn't have
one of the systems.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Julin may have a point

To be fair all plasma,drone, or fighter using X ships should cost 4x as much as an Xship that doesn't have
one of the systems.

And the ESG, which as a 100% hit rate, does not have it's damage weaken over time, and ignores cloak can be worth 8x, right...

[FPF-DieHard]

You fly that F-CX, I'll fly the I-CCX.   I will beat you 99 times out of 100.

The only valid test is comabt, whatever BS you spout with charts and graphs is still BS.

can a CVA take 2 BCHs?

Can a BB take 2 CVAs?

The cost is not linear, you pay a premium for increased combat density

[Julin Eurthyr]

Die Hard:

I am not arguing that the CCX is, in all respects, equal to the rest of the CXs.  If I was to do so, I would be asking for a build price identical to the F-CX.  Please show me where I asked for the CX to be a 3 point ship?

I'm saying that the CCX is not worth 2 CXs, and therefore should not be priced that high.  I believe that the CX should be worth 4 points, more than the rest of the CXs, but nowhere near the price of 2.

Let's do this test: You fly the CX, and I need a Fed wingman intimately familiar with the F-CX.  We'll fly the 2 on 1 you say that the CCX is worth.  Do you think you can beat us 50% of the time, as you say these ships are on that equal of a level, price wise.

Personally, I don't think you'll win that many.  Wolfpack tactics, overwhelming firepower, the ability to lose 1 ship while still taking you down and "being ahead" on the price charts all play parts here.

I'm saying the I-CCX should be worth 1 1/3 to 1 1/2 CXs.  Bring me proof that she's worth 1 2/3 CXs, and I'll concede a value of 5, no further arguments.

[Hexx]

Of course the Lyran CCX should actually be worth less, as the lack of stand off firepower hurts it.
Also the ESG is less useful for offence as other Xships can easily maintain speed 31 to avoid getting hit.

Since this is the first (I think) use of the "new" xships on a server why not just have.
Every race gets 1 Xcruiser. ISC get 2. Pirates get 0.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I would go with a price of 5 for the I-CCX OR make the CXs 4 and the I-CCX 6.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Of course the Lyran CCX should actually be worth less, as the lack of stand off firepower hurts it.
Also the ESG is less useful for offence as other Xships can easily maintain speed 31 to avoid getting hit.

Good point, but at least you got disrupters, so make the G-CCX cost even less than the L-CCX.

[Hexx]

Of course the Lyran CCX should actually be worth less, as the lack of stand off firepower hurts it.
Also the ESG is less useful for offence as other Xships can easily maintain speed 31 to avoid getting hit.

Good point, but at least you got disrupters, so make the G-CCX cost even less than the L-CCX.

May as well make the Gorn CCX free since you're all in DNH's anyway... 

[Kroma BaSyl]

Another option is to make a 3 pt I-CCX by dropping the PPDs and the power down to 44. Or drop 1 PPD and one R-torp and the power to 46.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Of course the Lyran CCX should actually be worth less, as the lack of stand off firepower hurts it.
Also the ESG is less useful for offence as other Xships can easily maintain speed 31 to avoid getting hit.

Good point, but at least you got disrupters, so make the G-CCX cost even less than the L-CCX.

May as well make the Gorn CCX free since you're all in DNH's anyway... 

You know Hexx, your not as bad a guy as Jinn keeps PM'ing me about. Great idea.