Topic: OT-ENTERPRISE has been cancelled!

[OlBuzzard]

I wasn't saying that I hate Enterprise per say F9thOlbuzzard! It's just that like all Trek series....the first few seasons are kind of slow because the writers are trying to better develop the characters. Unfortunately with Voyager and Enterprise, it took a little too long...... over 3 seasons for the series to get good and as a result, it turned a lot of people off. I want Enterprise to continue now that it's just starting to get to the stuff (ex. Human/Romulan War and the formation of the Federation). I just wish that the writers would have taken the opportunity to build up to it instead of farting around with all the "temporal cold war" crap. They really tripped over themselves doing that. If the writers had any common sense, they would have saved the "temporal cold war" plot for a futuristic Star Trek Series (like 27th or 29th century based series) and stuck to the basics in Enterprise.

 

ON these points we can agree ... ESPECIALLY THE "TEMPORAL COLD WAR" .....  ecch !!!    IMHO there were elements of the crew that could have been developed a bit better ... By that same token how could any of us forget the "Jim Kirk" who eventually got to the point where there was a woman in every port ...etc.  My point is simply that we don't flame the entire series.

BTW ... my response was not aimed at you sir ....  but rather "other elements" that tend to fry the entire show because of the ship ..

the ship, again IMHO,  was a good design and yes ..  it also hinted of the Enterprise to come ..  but not of the Akira per say...  ( there again ..  we can present some stuff later if needed ..  )

To give ya an idea of what I'm talking about in RL designs .....  does anyone else here besides me remember when the SR-71 was "developed" ... ??  Yet today we still don't have another jet that keeps up with it .. ( Yes I know we use other technology to do the same job ..  but that is not the point I'm driving at ) What I AM suggesting is that in much the same light as you see hull designs that may not change as frequently as the technology inside ....  IMHO the NX-1 is a great derivative from which the Connie could eventually evolve.

I try to give the writers a little more leniency rather than to be filled with anger because it does not fit other aspects of a gaming industry.

Thanks for taking the time to review this...  I hope we can agree on a few things ...

thanks

[Ravok]

I just think its a crying shame they did not give it time to turn around.

 The shows have improved radically this year, and it was showing some promise. And i hope they at least give it a good send off.

[OlBuzzard]

I just think its a crying shame they did not give it time to turn around.

 The shows have improved radically this year, and it was showing some promise. And i hope they at least give it a good send off.

you are so right !  Some of the best stuff they have produced.  IMHO that "Temporal War stuff hurt them really bad...  but they have done so much better !!

I wish I had and addy to send a letter to.  The jest of that letter would be exactly along these lines.

 

[Wicked Zombie]

The problem with Star Trek these past few years hasn't been because it "needs a break". Trek doesn't need a break, the people running it do. The problem is, there hasn't been any new blood behind the scenes since DS9 was wrapping up. Enterprise only got good when some fresh people came in with their new ideas. Unfortunately, this happened after most of the fanbase had been turned off with the previous fiascos (ratings wise - I'm not getting into the actual story arguments).

Voyager, Insurrection, Nemesis, Enterprise - all of these were run by the same core people, and regardless of some noteworthy elements, weren't the greatest times in Trek's history. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sound biased, I even liked these shows and movies for the most part. However, looking at the grand scheme of things, it's clear the writers/producers/whoever were straining for something original and rehashing the same old ideas.

Proof of that is with Enterprise's latest season - it didn't get anywhere truly good until new writers were pulled in who knew what they were doing and cared about the fans and Trek in general. Fan's shouldn't be mad at the show, or hate the ship, or even the characters - they should be miffed at the people in charge. Enterprise could've been great and could've kept the fans interested if the guys in charge just knew what they were doing. Everything has potential, it just takes some creativity and work to get anywhere with it.

Every strong incarnation of Trek has had a clear direction. TOS - exploration and humanity, TNG - A more modern take on the TOS formula, DS9 - the dark, realistic side of the galaxy. After that, things got blurred and lost their cohesion. What was Voyager about? Just a ship and crew lost lightyears from home. Enterprise? Even I can't think of anything definite on this one.

Enterprise didn't start out with any clear direction, it also didn't help matters when TPTB ignored continuity (Something Trekkers take very seriously). Things improved with the Xindi story, which gave the show a direction and a purpose. That's what the show needed from the beginning, but even that fizzled out into the usual rehashes. Honestly, how many "strange new worlds" are left to explore? That bit of Trek has been exhausted for years. Trek can't be a medium for telling random stories anymore, it needs something for the characters to focus around and stand up for. Flying through space, meeting new "aliens of the week" just doesn't cut it these days.

Hopefully something good will come out of this. Maybe Paramount will realize they need some new people running things and try to pay a bit more attention to the fanbase. If, for no other reason, than to ensure their cash flow stays steady.

[FedRebel]

i know this is trange but has any reason been given for the cancelation ive been to the UPN site and startrek.com but it doesnt say why?

Neilson ratings

And the move to friday night made things worse

this would be a nice answer to give us trekkies and trekkers an answer to why they canceled a good show as it was really catching the hearts of older fans again

It was too little, too late

And the "older fans" are a minority which wouldn't be enough to turn the tide

The majority are casual science fiction fans who disliked ENT and moved on to other shows

[OlBuzzard]

WZ ...

I agree with a lot (but not all) of your analysis.  You have a very good nack for analysis and putting it into a sensable, logical response.

This last season is much of what most of us have looked for all along.  It was an excellent way of telling the story that lead up the Trek "legend" that we have all came to appreciate.

IMHO if there had been more of this ...  there would have been ample material to work with.  AGAIN .. IMHO ..  many of the writers and studios today for TV really don't have the resources that they need.  UPN is a "nothing" or "nobody" network ..  (according to some interviews I have heard personally from major players and actors when discussing other movies and TV presentations other than Trek shows).  As most of us know a lot of what happens depends upon the $$$  revenue generated. If Paramount placed this series with the network it did ..  what ever good has become of this .. was done on a budget that was limited at best.

I do agree that Trek is any thing but dead ..  I also believe that the series can only grow if, as WZ has suggested they resort to a wider review of its initial floor plan.

say for example

 ....  exploiting the upheaval with in the Romulans after  Nemesis ...  couple that with a near Civil war in the Klingon Empire ...  if ya developed that right ..  it could be done much like DS-9 series.  Develope the matters that lead up to the events surrounding Nemesis .. the people who were there  (both Romulans and Klingons.. ) and the atmosphere within the Federation.  Hmmm  lets thrown in a new twist with disturbing news about the Borg ! ...  shake well ....  add in some old fashion "exploration" stuff ..  and you have another series that could take a few seasons just to unfold this story !!

(OK ..  I'm just day dreaming !!!  )  but heck ..  it's fun !!

I love this stuff !!  I always have since the 60's !

[Chris Jones]

IMO, The reason for the so-so or bad ratings is that Enterprise was not based on TNG. When there was 1st word of a new Trek series I was hoping for a some kind of Voyager, DS9 combo thing that might have involved Captain Riker and the USS Titan eventually. I think because of the pre-TOS idea, a lot of Trek fans gave up and Nemesis didn't do enough to turn that around. The momentum that Voyager might have had was lost.

Trek gaming will keep StarTrek alive for a long time to come, If I have anything to say about it..

[S31-AlphaDiomed]

Where did the Star Trek franchise go so wrong?  TOS movies 1 and 2 were awsome.  3, not so bad.  4 "the one with the whales" for those of us that are true trek fans, hated...  5, well, what can be said about "the final frontier", and then the Undiscovered Country - a valiant effort, and a good film, finally.... still, not enough fighting.  Our culture went through a strange period where killing on tv or film was taboo.  Even Arnold Schwartzenegger, nearly an action film god, wasn't killing anyone in the Terminator films....  blah blah blah.... thank someone we've grown out of that.

I have been generally disappointed with the TNG films.  Their series finale was a better epic than what has been done since.

DS9, well, didn't have the Enterprise did it... so I had a hard time getting into it.  Voyager did end up being a good show.  But then to make a show that was back in time (could we try to copy George Lucas a little more?) was a step backwards in progress.

I believe that they have not yet harnessed the full potential of the TNG series.  The stage is set, but I fear that they will shy away from what is an obvious storyline.  What Trek needs is a good "war journal."  There are certainly enough hostiles out there now, rogue Romulans, Remans, Cardies, 8472, Borg Rogue Drones, Lore (Data's other brother).... and yet I see them trying to copy a Search for Spock....

The stories that sell are the ones that show us why we love our heros.  Why is it that other movies, with no franchise value of their own, are huge box office smashes?  and yet Star Trek, with decades and generations of fans, cannot produce a quality production?

Who do we have to talk to?  Who do we write to?

I've seen better story lines in the RPG's of other Trek based fan sites than what the Paramount staff writers are able to conjure.

Thankfully, we have the games, and the mods of those games to allow us to create our own fantasy.  Through these things we are able to excersize some control over what we would like to see, and be a part of.

Thanks to all the modders,

and thank you for your time.

S31-AlphaDiomed

[Red_Green]

Well the new Doctor Who will be starting up soon.    Too bad I don't live in the UK. I don't think ENt's problems can be blamed on low budget as there are low budget SCIFI that has been successful. Still 4 years in this day and age is a fairly long run.

 I didn't like the idea of pre-TOS. Especilly the way they did it with ship designs that were basically TNG or later. That in itself threw a wrench, then all the blazing time travel. I think that when writers don't have a good plot to engage you with, they try to cover up that shortcoming by dazzling you with a bunch of BS. Like were in the 24th century, nope the 21st, nope the 23rd. A few explosions, show over. What happened? Was there even a plot. Too much zipping all over makes things become a farce. Now I gave up long ago on ENT.
Sounds like the show may have been just starting to get settled down. Why wouldn't they have started  the good stories when the show was new? Thats the best time to get a following.

[Chris Johnson]

When there was 1st word of a new Trek series I was hoping for a some kind of Voyager, DS9 combo thing that might have involved Captain Riker and the USS Titan eventually.

Not to be technical, but when there was first word of a new series (whist I was at Texas visiting my dad and at the same time occasionally playing SFC2 Dynaverse back around summer 2001), word of Nemesis and its storyline rarely spreaded out, if anything at all.  We never heard of any U.S.S. Titan and Riker's promotion to Captain.  But that's me being nitpicky. I miss those days though, Summer 2001 and backwards (in time).  Back when you can still speculate about Remus being a twin Romulan homeworld rather than have some strange species and make it desert-like and warm, etc.  Remus could've been another star system in TOS canon back in those days, however. *shrug* But I digress.

4 "the one with the whales" for those of us that are true trek fans, hated...  5, well, what can be said about "the final frontier", and then the Undiscovered Country - a valiant effort, and a good film, finally.... still, not enough fighting.  Our culture went through a strange period where killing on tv or film was taboo.  Even Arnold Schwartzenegger, nearly an action film god, wasn't killing anyone in the Terminator films....  blah blah blah.... thank someone we've grown out of that.

While I agree with the last part there for a bit, I kind-of disagree with statements on the Voyage (Well, sort-of) Home and wonder about the last TOS/TMP Trek film.  We have nitpicks, but overall TVH was a fantastic movie that meant to place the Trek crew to "today" (which back then is 1986, when I was born) as a "fish-out-of-water" story (although it would've been nice had Gene got that idea too in "Assignment: Earth" [TOS]).  They wanted something bigger than a plauge and have to travel back in time for a flower or two.  And overall, aside from all the hard-core Trek fans with their ears and ridges, TVH was really successful due to the non-Trek fan audience coming around and laughing at some moments too.
I won't go on Star Trek V.  It was an interesting concept overall yet poorly-done.
Star Trek VI wasn't about fighting and ratings like DS9 desperately was (which was exactly why it's popular around here, the action.  While action and fighting is nice, especially in games, it was sadly overused in DS9 to become what I truely wouldn't call Trek.  It still had its nice moments, but wasn't enough in my view to be good).  It was about achieving peace with the Klingons, not petty wars.  Maybe it's an SFB thing around here... *sigh* Keep in mind I didn't play SFB at all, only heard of it.

I have been generally disappointed with the TNG films.  Their series finale was a better epic than what has been done since.

I don't know.  I guess you're right on this one, save First Contact.  Besides choosing a ship design that seemed a little fan boy-ish in my opinion (at least nowadays), it was a great movie that gave it a little dark aspect without abandoning the optimism of Trek.  That's what connects me with Trek nowadays: It's optimism.  Optimism that we're going to be A-OK in the future.  I think that's what first connected with the audience around Trek's "birth" too, while providing great adventures.  That is, aside from the other reasons, reasons being space battles (again, DS9).

DS9, well, didn't have the Enterprise did it... so I had a hard time getting into it.

 

Well, it proved it didn't need the Enterprise to be successful, and aside from TOS, Enterprise proved you could have the Enterprise (of some kind) and fail miserably.

Voyager did end up being a good show.

 

Well, it was at first.  I think up until Season 3 it had its moments to be well worth watching it.  But I think without a "babe" on the show it would've been canceled.  Enterprise copied Voyager that way and it didn't help, even if at a moment or two some of these fans attracted by lust would've been celebrating during an episode or two that really turned me off of today's Trek.

I believe that they have not yet harnessed the full potential of the TNG series.  The stage is set, but I fear that they will shy away from what is an obvious storyline.  What Trek needs is a good "war journal."  There are certainly enough hostiles out there now, rogue Romulans, Remans, Cardies, 8472, Borg Rogue Drones, Lore (Data's other brother).... and yet I see them trying to copy a Search for Spock....

I think we've been in TNG for too long.  Some books would've done that just as well for you.  But I find a bit of trouble in successfully making a TV, let alone a movie in the Pre-TOS timeline, at least if we expected the kind-of "assumed canon" everyone thought about (even I), something like Masao Okazaki's Starfleet Museum for example. 

I've seen better story lines in the RPG's of other Trek based fan sites than what the Paramount staff writers are able to conjure.

I think books are what make Trek today, ever since a decade ago.  I belive they potentially have better stories than TV episodes of Trek or about half of those RPG websites (if not most or all)... No offense of course since they can conjure out great stories themselves.  But my point is, there are great books out there both old and new, such as an alternate view into the TNG timeline's "Mirror Universe" that mirror's TOS's episode in a great way, or Greg Cox's stories involving Gary Seven, or the Eugenics Wars.

[intermech]

Though the show was dripping with humanism, I tryied to watch it when I could to get the background story, but as soon as they desicrated the mindmeld by equating it with homosexuality, that is when I stopped watching. I know alot of people that quit watching after that episode.

I have been getting into SG-1, I think it is the TOS of our time. The writers were smart to make the show episodic, where a new audience could start watching at any time and not feel like they were missing something. SG-1 explores a new planet each episode, deals with an ethical issue, and some light philosophy.

BSG has been good so far because it hasn't attempted to shove the minority point of view of current social issues in my face like Enterpise. If I want that I will listen to NPR or watch CNN.

[Chris Johnson]

I think mind melds have been TOS-ified again thanks to a Vulcan story arc both of us missed, Intermech.

[CC22]

   ???

Well i hope those who slammed the show are happy...

It was not a bad show. Some of the comments Ive seen here and other boards typified the almost trendy Trek bashing of late. Well you got nothing to bash anymore.

[OlBuzzard]

YUP ..  and there are some who deem themsleves so knowledgeable to even believe that the NX-1 never existed ....

LOL ..   such small minds.

IMHO  ...  the older versions of the Federation designs that are similar to some of the Vulcan designs  ( see the pre TOS stuff that Azel has done ...  ) would be exactly that  ...  very Early  if not some of the "FIRST" major steps in warp ships after the ship flown in "First Contact".  The NX-1 IMHO was exactly what it claimed to be ..  the first warp 5 ship.

I also agree that I hope these select individuals who have set themselves up so high and mighty are now happy ..

Some people never learn.

With all of the constant bitching and belly aching that they do about the game, movies, and the TV series ...  who would WANT to support an audience like that ????

[Pestalence_XC]

The NX-01 may have existed, but not under the name Enterprise..

In TMP in my other posting, I show the linage of the Enterprise from the wooden ship to the NCC-1701..

In TNG, they also show the Deadelous Class Enterprise as part of the lineage.. as such, no previous canon reference for the NX-01 being the Enterprise exists... It was a B&B creation of the Akira Class with the warp nacells inverted.. a hull design 200+ years before it was created..

As for Enterprise keeping canon with Trek Timeline, it blew away about 70% of established canon.. as such, i can concede that the NX-01 Enterprise was part of the Mirror Universe as well as the Tech that they displayed, but in the TOS to TNG timeline or regular universe, the NX-01 Enterprise never existed..

as for the show itself, if you ignore all the blatant errors in established canon or kept in mind that it is the mirror universe, then it was quite entertaining to watch.

[Sochin]

For god sake its cancelled, I personally liked the show, GET OVER IT!!

[CC22]

YUP ..  and there are some who deem themsleves so knowledgeable to even believe that the NX-1 never existed ....

LOL ..   such small minds.

IMHO  ...  the older versions of the Federation designs that are similar to some of the Vulcan designs  ( see the pre TOS stuff that Azel has done ...  ) would be exactly that  ...  very Early  if not some of the "FIRST" major steps in warp ships after the ship flown in "First Contact".  The NX-1 IMHO was exactly what it claimed to be ..  the first warp 5 ship.

I also agree that I hope these select individuals who have set themselves up so high and mighty are now happy ..

Some people never learn.

With all of the constant bitching and belly aching that they do about the game, movies, and the TV series ...  who would WANT to support an audience like that ????

I agree.

Crazy isn't it  .

[OlBuzzard]

The NX-01 may have existed, but not under the name Enterprise..

In TMP in my other posting, I show the linage of the Enterprise from the wooden ship to the NCC-1701..

Those picts were inconclusive ....  not of "every ship named Enterprise"  ..  but that they were ALL called Enterprise .....  As well a major point over looked ...  DATES ..  hmmm  I  don't suppose you consider some MAJOR faux pas there ....

As you are aware I'm sure ..  there are some MAJOR time line problems with the beginning of TREK to start with ..  starting with the WW-3 dates .. hmmmm  no one seems to have any problems with that.  I can't help but to wonder why all of the griping about Enterprise ... and total silence about other larger mistakes in other areas of Trek History.  Perhaps the simple truth of the matter is that some people would gripe if they were hung with a new rope ...  Absolutely nothing suits them. 

The simple fact of the matter is that all TV programs have their problems ..  if you want to focus on that sort of thing long enough.  Infact ...  while you are busy raising all this XXXX over everything about this movie ...  lets get right down to the probability of a warp ship with in the next 100 years ...  and the technology to build a transporter system that can move living things while holding the pattern in storage...  with heart rate blood flow etc .;...

see my point....

If that is what you want ... we can play that game.

But .....  in truth ...  what would be gained from it ?

I submitt to you that aside from the Temporal War thingy .... and some other "indiscretions" ..  that the program has came a LONG WAY !  and in the end as it was just showing signs of maturity ..  it was canceled.

I hope that some how we can get past those who's sight is so lacking and narrow that we can hope and build for a future TREK that will be responsible to the "SPIRIT" of Star Trek ...  and "Boldly go!"

[Wicked Zombie]

Looks like one of the Enterprise aircraft carriers is missing in that TMP lineup too. I'm betting those WW II veterans are gonna be miffed when they find out they never existed...

There has never been a Daedalus class Enterprise. There's also the fact that the Ent-C and Ent-B models on the TNG wall were very different to their 'real' versions. Going by the same logic as the "it never existed" argument, I suppose the B and C were totally different ships...

Most 'established canon' is hardly established and hardly canon. A big chunk of supposedly canon Trek is really just semi-true facts and behind the scenes info that have become so popular, it's been accepted as canon by the fans even if those facts have never been shown on-screen. While Enterprise may have mucked up the timeline, shaken a few supposedly set-in-stone Trek events, and left a bad taste for some, it wasn't anymore contradictory to canon than any other Trek series. It did, however, get more flak when something was contradicted as it not only had TOS history to contend with, but the entire Trek timeline.

A person doesn't have to make up some crazy explanation as to why it never existed or why nobody mentioned it before, you can simply ignore it. Like I do with 90% of Voyager...and most Trek fans and ship critics...

[Chris Johnson]

For arguments on canon and stuff, I ask of you to click here.  Just my two cents on canon.  However: I believe that we're digressing from the main topic at hand while we're discussing canon.  However, I think most everyone had their say, so if nobody has anything to add, I ask respectfully we let this thread drop like a fly.  There's two others concerning Enterprise's cancellation anyhow.