Topic: ***SGO4 Mid Server Rule Change***

[FPF-DieHard]

Get into a CB and maybe Ill look you up in a CWLP.

I'll take that any day of the week.  if you win in a 1v1 I'll name my ship "Hexx's Bitch" for 24 hours.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Get into a CB and maybe Ill look you up in a CWLP.

I'll take that any day of the week.  if you win in a 1v1 I'll name my ship "Hexx's Bitch" for 24 hours.

If he wins the name will stay with you longer than that DH, but Bearslayer will likely thank you for getting him off the hook......

[Kroma BaSyl]

Exactly my point, your dictating terms bro.  That is not what the concept of "Wild Geese" is about at all.

Not saying your a bad guy or aren't willing to fly for what YOU perceive as an underdog, true or not.

Sorry but the Wild Geese is a bad idea, one I used to support but no longer do as it is unnecessary, and more trouble than it is worth. It smacks to much of a Deus Ex mid server fudge factor that will come to no good.

I prefer the "Wild Kroma" concept, where I choose to fly for whatever team I want to and reserve the right to change my mind mid server if I am having trouble finding an adequate quantity of targets.

I have no problem with either the Wild Geese or the Wild Kroma concepts (can't believe I said that  )  But if one signs up as a Goose he should play as one and not as a Kroma.  If he is flying as a Kroma, let the admin have someone they can rely on to fly goose in his place.

As I said the Wild Goose factor is seriously flawed and should be eliminated. It is basically a admin Mid Server Rule change trump card, which if you weren't currently practicing a form of situational ethics would would see is as bad for the game as any of the Mid Server rules changes you have so vehemently opposed on principle in the past.

[FPF-DieHard]

I have no problem with either the Wild Geese or the Wild Kroma concepts (can't believe I said that  )  But if one signs up as a Goose he should play as one and not as a Kroma.  If he is flying as a Kroma, let the admin have someone they can rely on to fly goose in his place.

And server admins shouldn't stack the deck.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

It has its merits and demerits, however, it is not a midserver chage in my view as the geese are not asked for mid-server but volunteer prior to server beginning and are a preplanned contigency, not an alteration of the rules or setup on an adhoc basis.  Now the best sloution would be application of "Geese" before a server even started, but that would rely on accurate player signups, which sadly enough for some unknown reason we don't 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I have no problem with either the Wild Geese or the Wild Kroma concepts (can't believe I said that  )  But if one signs up as a Goose he should play as one and not as a Kroma.  If he is flying as a Kroma, let the admin have someone they can rely on to fly goose in his place.

And server admins shouldn't stack the deck.

Who stacked what deck?

[Kroma BaSyl]

it is not a midserver chage in my view as the geese are not asked for mid-server but volunteer prior to server beginning and are a preplanned contigency, not an alteration of the rules or setup on an adhoc basis. 

This would be true only if there were clear rules setup for their activation based on predefined conditions and metrics. As it stands no such predefined rules are in place and the Geese are being used in a subjective "adhoc" manner.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

it is not a midserver chage in my view as the geese are not asked for mid-server but volunteer prior to server beginning and are a preplanned contigency, not an alteration of the rules or setup on an adhoc basis. 

This would be true only if there were clear rules setup for their activation based on predefined conditions and metrics. As it stands no such predefined rules are in place and the Geese are being used in a subjective "adhoc" manner.

Excellent point.

Perhaps there were some predefined conditions that the admin was working from, player numbers online, missions run, etc...then again perhaps there were not, a matter that does deserve some future attention.  Yet, as the issue of the geese was not questioned prior to the beginning of the server then the application of them without specified parameters was actually pre-planned and accepted if no such conditions existed.

[FPF-DieHard]

I have no problem with either the Wild Geese or the Wild Kroma concepts (can't believe I said that  )  But if one signs up as a Goose he should play as one and not as a Kroma.  If he is flying as a Kroma, let the admin have someone they can rely on to fly goose in his place.

And server admins shouldn't stack the deck.

Who stacked what deck?

Moving alliance players to the ISC to gang bang the Alliance would be stacking the deck.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

So you are accussing Dizzy of attemptimg to "Stack the Deck".  By "Stacking the Deck" I assume you mean predetermining or intentionally favoring one group with the intention of having one side win the server by using his admin ability.  Or to put it bluntly cheating.

I'm hoping my assumption here is incorrect.  Otherwise, I think if this is your meaning you really do owe Dizzy another apology.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Yet, as the issue of the geese was not questioned prior to the beginning of the server then the application of them without specified parameters was actually pre-planned and accepted if no such conditions existed.

So if I write a rule that says the admin reserves the right to change everything and anything mid server without predefined specific parameters, then anything they do mid server is actually pre-planned and accepted.

Chuut you are really reaching to find a way around you no mid server rules change creed here. Your logic is seriously flawed.

[FPF-DieHard]

So you are accussing Dizzy of attemptimg to "Stack the Deck".  By "Stacking the Deck" I assume you mean predetermining or intentionally favoring one group with the intention of having one side win the server by using his admin ability.  Or to put it bluntly cheating.

I'm hoping my assumption here is incorrect.  Otherwise, I think if this is your meaning you really do owe Dizzy another apology.

I am not accusing Dizzy of cheating, I'm accusing you of being a rules lawyer who needs to be beaten to death with a shovel 

[Kroma BaSyl]

So you are accussing Dizzy of attemptimg to "Stack the Deck".  By "Stacking the Deck" I assume you mean predetermining or intentionally favoring one group with the intention of having one side win the server by using his admin ability.  Or to put it bluntly cheating.

I'm hoping my assumption here is incorrect.  Otherwise, I think if this is your meaning you really do owe Dizzy another apology.

Now you are really streching Chuut. Let's remember it was you that questioned DH honor here first. He has not accused anyone of cheating. He is simply pointing out that the current application of the Wild Geese is being done in a subjective adhoc manner for the purpose of attempting to fudge or balance out the server results.

I actually am sympathetic to the intent, which I believe to be to keep the server competative and fun for people on all sides, but I feel that it is far to blunt a tool for keeping the server alive (and unnecssary at this point) and given the lack of clear condition open to adhoc/subjective interpretation.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

So you are accussing Dizzy of attemptimg to "Stack the Deck".  By "Stacking the Deck" I assume you mean predetermining or intentionally favoring one group with the intention of having one side win the server by using his admin ability.  Or to put it bluntly cheating.

I'm hoping my assumption here is incorrect.  Otherwise, I think if this is your meaning you really do owe Dizzy another apology.

I am not accusing Dizzy of cheating, I'm accusing you of being a rules lawyer who needs to be beaten to death with a shovel 

Good, that I can accept.  

And I'm just accusing you of signing up for a duty and not honoring your commitment.  

I honestly have no problem with you not flying ISC because you don't feel you are needed there.  You have shown yourself to be willing in the past to fly with the side that needs you and I applaud you for those past actions.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Yet, as the issue of the geese was not questioned prior to the beginning of the server then the application of them without specified parameters was actually pre-planned and accepted if no such conditions existed.

So if I write a rule that says the admin reserves the right to change everything and anything mid server without predefined specific parameters, then anything they do mid server is actually pre-planned and accepted.

Fine by me, just don't expect a big turnout on such servers, but people would get what was advertised.

Chuut you are really reaching to find a way around you no mid server rules change creed here. Your logic is seriously flawed.

I think you fail to miss the whole point.  If the conditions of wild geese being present on a server were known to all, and no parameters were set for their deployment, it is hardly a midsever change for them to ACTUALLY BE DEPLOYED   

I supported keeping the F-CS+ unrestricted to all on this server as it would have constituted a midserver change as people had been flying them unrestricted.  If they had been placed on the build ship only list, I was considering pulling out just as I did on GW2.  Now the deployment of the geese had been a known possibility prior to the start of the server, and cannot be seen in the same light. 

Now, I agree with your earlier point that certain parameters being set beforehand is a damn fine idea, one that I am highly in favor of.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I think you fail to miss the whole point.  If the conditions of wild geese being present on a server were known to all, and no parameters were set for their deployment, it is hardly a midsever change for them to ACTUALLY BE DEPLOYED   

I think you are the one missing the point here. Having a rule that ineffect says you can change the rules is just a loophole and excuse for claiming a mid server rules change is infact some other than what it is. That is what this is. It is in fact little more than an admin Get-out-of-mid-server-rules-change-Jail-Free card, and while all dressed up is still nothing but a whore, to those that say they would never play on a server that allowed mid server rules changes. It is ineffect the same thing as a rules change.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

So you are accussing Dizzy of attemptimg to "Stack the Deck".  By "Stacking the Deck" I assume you mean predetermining or intentionally favoring one group with the intention of having one side win the server by using his admin ability.  Or to put it bluntly cheating.

I'm hoping my assumption here is incorrect.  Otherwise, I think if this is your meaning you really do owe Dizzy another apology.

Now you are really streching Chuut. Let's remember it was you that questioned DH honor here first.

Only in regard of his not going along with flying Geese, but I do understand his motives and viewpoint.  I'm not saying he is wrong in his analysis of the situation on the server, and while his motives may be pure, he is still not keeping his commitment, perhaps he is correct not to do so, and I won't hold a grudge against him or anything, I just ask that he not sign up as a geese in the future if we continue to use them, which itself seems unlikely.

He has not accused anyone of cheating. He is simply pointing out that the current application of the Wild Geese is being done in a subjective adhoc manner for the purpose of attempting to fudge or balance out the server results.

Actually Kroma, I was just jerking DH's chain a little bit, to shock him into realizing the path his words were leading to.  I know DH well enough to know that he wouldn't actually accuse Dizzy of cheating, and he knows me well enough I think to let me get away with jerking his chain.  I know your trying to defend DH here, and that is nice of ya, but we are friends and he really doesn't need a protecter from me.  Let me have a bit of "Kroma-style" fun and do a bit of chain pulling, I'm picking a target who can take it from me.....

[Julin Eurthyr]

MID SERVER RULE CHANGE: The Gorn are now exempt from the ISC having to follow equal pacification and the ISC now recieves 1 BP or 2 CP per build cycle starting in 2279.

Does this add to or replace the original 6/6 schedule?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I think you are the one missing the point here. Having a rule that ineffect says you can change the rules is just a loophole and excuse for claiming a mid server rules change is infact some other than what it is. That is what this is. It is in fact little more than an admin Get-out-of-mid-server-rules-change-Jail-Free card, and while all dressed up is still nothing but a whore, to those that say they would never play on a server that allowed mid server rules changes. It is ineffect the same thing as a rules change.

Already addressed:

Yet, as the issue of the geese was not questioned prior to the beginning of the server then the application of them without specified parameters was actually pre-planned and accepted if no such conditions existed.

So if I write a rule that says the admin reserves the right to change everything and anything mid server without predefined specific parameters, then anything they do mid server is actually pre-planned and accepted.

Fine by me, just don't expect a big turnout on such servers, but people would get what was advertised.

An admin can do this if they want, you either play on it or you dont, plain and simple.  Most likely won't as I said in the quoted area above.  As long as its advertised as such there is no problem whatsoever, you got what you paid for.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Actually Kroma, I was just jerking DH's chain a little bit, to shock him into realizing the path his words were leading to.  I know DH well enough to know that he wouldn't actually accuse Dizzy of cheating, and he knows me well enough I think to let me get away with jerking his chain.  I know your trying to defend DH here, and that is nice of ya, but we are friends and he really doesn't need a protecter from me.  Let me have a bit of "Kroma-style" fun and do a bit of chain pulling, I'm picking a target who can take it from me.....

LOL....like DH ever needed me to defend him. You really are missing my point, which is that I feel your general stance on this issue is situationally applied and flies in the face of your ridge stance on mid server rules changes. If not literally true, then certianally in the spirit of why I believe you have held that postion in the past.