Topic: OP+ 4.0: Conjectural Ships & PBR

[KHH Jakle]

Make the unique ships support vessels maybe?
 
How do you handle the utterly ridiculous ships like the Mauler B10?

First thing that needs to be done is get a list of all Conjecturals and all single constructions.

From there we can see what we're dealing with and make a better, informed decision (do nothing, or if to do something, do what and how).

Any volunteers?

[FPF-DieHard]

But you are right....they would play hell to 'balance' - but are they necessarily balanced now?  I think to large degrees, carriers and fighters are really unknown territory when it comes to the kind of set peice battles we have in a league environment.  Maybe the current taldren crap are known entities, but I don't think that makes them better for the league than DH's, for example.

I don't know if people ever tried this before, but as a preliminary BPV balancing, I used to launch my SFB fighters out by individual squadrons against an AI opponent of similar total BPV.  A flight of F-14's vs a Klink F5C for example.  Depending on how well they did would give me an idea whether they were priced appropriately or not.

Let me re-word this, they could be balanced but you have to throw the SFB BPVs in tha garbage and start over.

[KHH Jakle]

But you are right....they would play hell to 'balance' - but are they necessarily balanced now?  I think to large degrees, carriers and fighters are really unknown territory when it comes to the kind of set peice battles we have in a league environment.  Maybe the current taldren crap are known entities, but I don't think that makes them better for the league than DH's, for example.

I don't know if people ever tried this before, but as a preliminary BPV balancing, I used to launch my SFB fighters out by individual squadrons against an AI opponent of similar total BPV.  A flight of F-14's vs a Klink F5C for example.  Depending on how well they did would give me an idea whether they were priced appropriately or not.

Let me re-word this, they could be balanced but you have to throw the SFB BPVs in tha garbage and start over.

Yeah - but couldn't the SFB values be used to establish relative strength? ex: the F-14's v the Klink Frigate

[FPF-DieHard]

But you are right....they would play hell to 'balance' - but are they necessarily balanced now?  I think to large degrees, carriers and fighters are really unknown territory when it comes to the kind of set peice battles we have in a league environment.  Maybe the current taldren crap are known entities, but I don't think that makes them better for the league than DH's, for example.

I don't know if people ever tried this before, but as a preliminary BPV balancing, I used to launch my SFB fighters out by individual squadrons against an AI opponent of similar total BPV.  A flight of F-14's vs a Klink F5C for example.  Depending on how well they did would give me an idea whether they were priced appropriately or not.

Let me re-word this, they could be balanced but you have to throw the SFB BPVs in tha garbage and start over.

Yeah - but couldn't the SFB values be used to establish relative strength? ex: the F-14's v the Klink Frigate

Um, how much do you factor in AI stupidity?   

Have you seen the GW4/Slave Girls fighters?    Is this sort of what you are talking about?

[762_XC]

But you are right....they would play hell to 'balance' - but are they necessarily balanced now?  I think to large degrees, carriers and fighters are really unknown territory when it comes to the kind of set peice battles we have in a league environment.  Maybe the current taldren crap are known entities, but I don't think that makes them better for the league than DH's, for example.

I don't know if people ever tried this before, but as a preliminary BPV balancing, I used to launch my SFB fighters out by individual squadrons against an AI opponent of similar total BPV.  A flight of F-14's vs a Klink F5C for example.  Depending on how well they did would give me an idea whether they were priced appropriately or not.

Let me re-word this, they could be balanced but you have to throw the SFB BPVs in tha garbage and start over.

Yeah - but couldn't the SFB values be used to establish relative strength? ex: the F-14's v the Klink Frigate

No, for two reasons.

One, trying to balance the fighters alone without their carrier is unrealistic. The carrier adds an element of offensive and defensive support which lends to the effectiveness of the fighter group. Ask any experienced carrier pilot how well independent strikes work.

Two, the type of ship you select as a test target will affect the outcome. Different fighters have different effectiveness against different types of targets. Variations in target point defense will also yield different results.

This will be a HUGE HUGE headache to try to accomplish. Personally I think the devil we know is a better choice.

[KHH Jakle]

But you are right....they would play hell to 'balance' - but are they necessarily balanced now?  I think to large degrees, carriers and fighters are really unknown territory when it comes to the kind of set peice battles we have in a league environment.  Maybe the current taldren crap are known entities, but I don't think that makes them better for the league than DH's, for example.

I don't know if people ever tried this before, but as a preliminary BPV balancing, I used to launch my SFB fighters out by individual squadrons against an AI opponent of similar total BPV.  A flight of F-14's vs a Klink F5C for example.  Depending on how well they did would give me an idea whether they were priced appropriately or not.

Let me re-word this, they could be balanced but you have to throw the SFB BPVs in tha garbage and start over.

Yeah - but couldn't the SFB values be used to establish relative strength? ex: the F-14's v the Klink Frigate

Um, how much do you factor in AI stupidity?   

Have you seen the GW4/Slave Girls fighters?    Is this sort of what you are talking about?

Well....it's sort of AI v AI, so I figure the stupidity cancels each other out.

Seriously, depending on how well the Squadron did, I would just use a gut check to measure how much adjustment might be needed for a human opponent.

You sent me your SGO ftrlist once, so I've seen it. 

[KHH Jakle]

But you are right....they would play hell to 'balance' - but are they necessarily balanced now?  I think to large degrees, carriers and fighters are really unknown territory when it comes to the kind of set peice battles we have in a league environment.  Maybe the current taldren crap are known entities, but I don't think that makes them better for the league than DH's, for example.

I don't know if people ever tried this before, but as a preliminary BPV balancing, I used to launch my SFB fighters out by individual squadrons against an AI opponent of similar total BPV.  A flight of F-14's vs a Klink F5C for example.  Depending on how well they did would give me an idea whether they were priced appropriately or not.

Let me re-word this, they could be balanced but you have to throw the SFB BPVs in tha garbage and start over.

Yeah - but couldn't the SFB values be used to establish relative strength? ex: the F-14's v the Klink Frigate

No, for two reasons.

One, trying to balance the fighters alone without their carrier is unrealistic. The carrier adds an element of offensive and defensive support which lends to the effectiveness of the fighter group. Ask any experienced carrier pilot how well independent strikes work.

Two, the type of ship you select as a test target will affect the outcome. Different fighters have different effectiveness against different types of targets. Variations in target point defense will also yield different results.

This will be a HUGE HUGE headache to try to accomplish. Personally I think the devil we know is a better choice.

Independant Strikes don't work because the Taldren fighters stink.  I made a SFB fighterlist before to goof around, and playtest solo Independant strikes all the time.

I wasn't too different than DH's, although I went with SFB fighter loadouts (so 6 instead of 4 in a Squadron), and I only used the heavier (but slower) missles.  The Dogfight drones on the SSD were ignored (I think DH used the light missles for these).

Anyway, just to test the effectiveness of the squadrons relative to SFB bpv, I would launch them on independant strikes against targets of roughly equal BPV.  Results varied - for exactly the reasons you state (does the ship have AMD? for ex) - but by and large, the performance was roughly consistent.

So you start with a concept.  Lets say DH's SGO ftr list to start.

You balance the BPV v AI.

Then you playtest some missions v Human opponents.

[762_XC]

Independant strikes do NOT work with SFB fighters. They are even more vulnerable then Taldren ones.

More weapons but fewer hit points as a general rule.

Balancing the BPV against AI is pointless, because AI does not know how to deal with fighters.

[KHH Jakle]

Independant strikes do NOT work with SFB fighters. They are even more vulnerable then Taldren ones.

More weapons but fewer hit points as a general rule.

Balancing the BPV against AI is pointless, because AI does not know how to deal with fighters.

Not like I have a Master Fighter Chart sitting in front of me, but I don't recall SFB fighters being any weaker that Taldren from a hit point perspective.

I just don't see how you can call it pointless to use AI as a starting point.  It's raw, but it's a starting point.

[FPF-DieHard]

I just don't see how you can call it pointless to use AI as a starting point.  It's raw, but it's a starting point.

Because the only valid test is combat <Snicker>

[762_XC]

What Kumerian said. 

It's pointless because the AI is as bad against fighters as it is against drones. There are so many ways of dealing with fighters that the AI does not do.

[KHH Jakle]

I just don't see how you can call it pointless to use AI as a starting point.  It's raw, but it's a starting point.

Because the only valid test is combat <Snicker>

DH, you bastard. 

[KHH Jakle]

But you are right....they would play hell to 'balance' - but are they necessarily balanced now?  I think to large degrees, carriers and fighters are really unknown territory when it comes to the kind of set peice battles we have in a league environment.  Maybe the current taldren crap are known entities, but I don't think that makes them better for the league than DH's, for example.

I don't know if people ever tried this before, but as a preliminary BPV balancing, I used to launch my SFB fighters out by individual squadrons against an AI opponent of similar total BPV.  A flight of F-14's vs a Klink F5C for example.  Depending on how well they did would give me an idea whether they were priced appropriately or not.

Let me re-word this, they could be balanced but you have to throw the SFB BPVs in tha garbage and start over.

So why couldn't this just be done??

[KHH Jakle]

Make the unique ships support vessels maybe?
 
How do you handle the utterly ridiculous ships like the Mauler B10?

First thing that needs to be done is get a list of all Conjecturals and all single constructions.

From there we can see what we're dealing with and make a better, informed decision (do nothing, or if to do something, do what and how).

Any volunteers?

Does anyone want to be a sweet heart and list all the conjectural ships as of OP+ 4.0?  I'd do it, but I am not living at home right now