Topic: Come on people...  (Read 5757 times)

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Offline Clark Kent

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Come on people...
« on: January 10, 2005, 08:49:16 pm »
I've gotten a little tired of this topic, personally.  You know why the klingons look differently now than they did in TOS?  Because they didn't have the makeup budget they needed.  PLain and simple.  This isn't difficult people.  I mean, for cryin out loud, I don't hear anyone asking why you could see the strings holding the original enterprise up.  Hmm, let's find out "Paramount, why did the original enterprise have strings?  was it some sort of twenty third century side effect of warp propulsion?"
"Dear viewer, no, actually the original enterprise had strings because of a twentieth century phenomenon we like to call "gravity"  This "gravity" caused the ship to suddenly, and without warning to drop, so Scotty came up with the string method to counter act this "gravity."  Refer to episode 201b."
 :P

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/8695.html

Production Report: Klingon Discrepancy Addressed in "Affliction"
 

SPOILER ALERT!!!

It's probably the single most popular topic of conversation among Star Trek fans: Why do Klingons look different during Captain Kirk's day than all the times after and before? What happened to their forehead ridges during that period? (We all know the real reason ? the original show didn't have the budget for prosthetic makeup ... and starting with the movies they did. But that explanation is no fun!) In fact, at conventions fans consistently ask if that discrepancy would ever be explained on the show, thus becoming "canon." Well, Trekkies and Trekkers, it's finally happening. The 15th episode of Season 4 of Star Trek: Enterprise will begin to address that issue, and it's called "Affliction."

"Affliction" is the first of a two-parter, written by Mike Sussman (we've got a bio for him now!) from a story by Manny Coto. The second part is called "Divergence," written by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, and those episodes will air in February. (During sweeps ... clever, huh?)

The Klingon forehead issue is a complicated one, because it has to take into account a number of factors if one is to stay true to the Star Trek universe as previously established (related feature). The simplest theories (e.g. "southern" vs. "northern" breeds) have to be thrown out because Star Trek: Deep Space Nine reprised three Klingon characters from the Original Series ? Kor, Koloth and Kang ? and gave them forehead ridges in "Blood Oath." Then there was "Trials and Tribble-ations," where the crew went back in time to Station K-7, looked around and said, "Those are Klingons??" They turned to bumpy-headed Worf for an explanation, and he would only say it's a long story and "We do not discuss it with outsiders."

Well, rest assured the writers have taken all that into account and have come up with a scenario consistent with all those elements. We won't give it away here, of course, but we will say that it ties very neatly into other aspects of Trek history.

To briefly synopsize the story, Enterprise heads back to Earth for the official launch of the Columbia NX-02, commanded by Erika Hernandez. After visiting his favorite Chinese restaurant in San Francisco, Phlox is abducted by aliens (Rigelians, actually). He finds himself in the presence of Klingons who tell him the Empire is facing its gravest threat in centuries. Along the way, as Archer and company investigate and pursue, it's revealed that one of our main characters has a secret past which comes into play.

There's some exciting casting in this show, including some familiar Klingon faces. Remember the Klingon Ambassador who railed against Kirk in "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home" and "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country"? That was John Schuck, and he's back in the bumpy cranium but as a more cerebral Klingon, a scientist named "Antaak." Schuck was also a Cardassian in DS9's "The Maquis, Part II," and a member of the "Chorus" in Star Trek: Voyager's "Muse."

Worf's son Alexander was played by four different people (counting the future one in "Firstborn"). The final actor in that role for the DS9 episodes "Sons and Daughters" and "You Are Cordially Invited..." was Marc Worden. Here, Worden plays a "Klingon Prisoner" who, shall we say, undergoes some nasty business related to those head ridges.

Ada Maris, introduced in "Home" as Archer's old flame, returns as the Columbia's captain. Another face back in uniform is that of avid Trek fan Seth MacFarlane, creator of the animated comedy Family Guy (which currently is being made into a movie). The 31-year-old MacFarlane had a brief cameo last season as an Engineer in "The Forgotten" (related story). He's still an Engineer but now he's got a Columbia patch on his uniform, and he's got a name: "Ensign Rivers." He's also got more scenes this time.

Two more alumni in the guest cast are Eric Pierpoint as "Harris" (a mysterious person involved in a certain character's past), and Brad Greenquist as one of the Rigelians who kidnap Phlox. Pierpoint has appeared once in each of the latter-day Trek series ? in TNG's "Liaisons," DS9's "For the Uniform," Voyager's "Barge of the Dead," and Enterprise's "Rogue Planet." Greenquist was in "Dawn," and also Voyager's "Warlord" and DS9's "Who Mourns for Morn?"

Production on this installment took place from Friday, December 3, through Monday of this week. Certain standing sets were redressed a bit to serve as the equivalent sections of Columbia, namely Engineering, the Bridge, and the Captain's Mess. On the latter set there was a greenscreen in the window where a view of the drydock will be inserted later.

There were some exterior scenes for the sequence where Phlox is walking with Hoshi and they get jumped by the Rigelians, and subsequently the area becomes a crime scene. This was shot at Paramount, but rather than use the New York Streets backlot yet again (as in "Storm Front"), the company did these scenes between the studio's Administration Building (home of all the top executives) and another building which may be recognizable as the high school in Happy Days. There's an altercation, so Linda Park was stunt-doubled by Diana Inosanto (John Billingsley did his own, less intense moves), and the other two Rigelians besides Greenquist were played by stuntmen Brian Williams and Tom Dupont.

About a day and a half was spent in a Klingon Laboratory designed as a dark, dank chamber filled with rusty equipment (the script reads, "If Doctor Frankenstein lived in the 22nd century, he might work in a place like this"). There were some rattling animal cages on the set, but much of the atmosphere of these scenes will be created through post-production sound and visual effects. There will be Targs running around and snarling, digitally.

Will we actually see the Kirk-era Klingon visage in this episode? Why yes! In fact, we'll see four of them (referred to in the production notes either as "Klingons, Type Two" or "Semi-Klingons"), the principal one named "Marab." And yes, they have that swarthy complexion and that Fu Manchu facial hair. They do, however, have a very slight remnant of the forehead ridge. Their outfits are leathery brown like we've seen on Klingons before, but a lot less bulky.

The second and final part of this Klingon arc is currently in production, but the company goes on hiatus after this Friday, the 17th, for two weeks. They will resume January 3, with three days left on "Divergence." After that, there will only be six more episodes to shoot in the season, finishing up principal photography in March.

"Affliction" was directed by Michael Grossman, who joined Enterprise last season with "Hatchery." Earlier this season he helmed the first part of the Vulcan arc, "The Forge." This is the fifth writing credit of the season for Sussman, on top of "Home," "The Augments," "Kir'Shara" and "Babel One."

"Affliction" is tentatively scheduled to air February 18, with "Divergence" the week after. Updates will appear in Episode Detail.

The upcoming airdate schedule from UPN as we currently have it is as follows (subject, as always, to change):
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
-Metallica

Offline Sirgod

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2005, 08:53:23 pm »
and see, I thought It was A Klingon Fetish With Sea Food.  ;D

Stephen
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Offline Alidar Jarok

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2005, 10:42:01 pm »
While I was anxious of them doing the topic for the same reason you have said, this seems to be a topic that will never die, so they are caving in.  From the description, it doesn't sound too bad (slight ridges for starters).  As long as you don't end up with that stupid looking balding white Klingon from Friday's Child, it might not be so bad.

Also, the episodes apparently address other issues with the Klingons besides physical appearance.  Also, you get to see the Colombia again, as well as Rigellians.  Part two is written by Reeves-Stevens, and, since I enjoyed the Forge, I'll give them a chance with this one.

EDIT: I read this recently, I'm not sure if its true

Ex-Astris-Scientia forums

The old line that the Klingons "were always supposed to look like that in TOS if we had the budget" is actually not true.

Costume designer Bob Fletcher and makeup designer Fred Phillips actually wrote little biographies on all the species they created or enhanced for ST:TMP.

The new Klingon look was said to be the result of a genetic engineering program, altering the DNA of the best soldiers in the Empire to become "Klingon Berserkers," on the forefront in combatting the Federation. They would have improved strength, speed, stamina, a stronger skull (hence the ridges), redundant organs, and a more intimidating look overall. You'll notice that the Klingons in TMP all had fairly uniform looking straight ridgelines running down the length of their skull all the way to the back unlike later Klingons who all had unique ridges.

While it's not canon in any way, I thought it was a pretty cool explanation, like most of the other explanations they came up with for the TMP species that made them more interesting then just one off aliens.
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If there's anything that you want,
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Just call on me and i'll send it along
With love from me to you.

Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2005, 01:29:29 pm »
I've gotten a little tired of this topic, personally.  You know why the klingons look differently now than they did in TOS?  Because they didn't have the makeup budget they needed.  PLain and simple.

Were it simply a matter of how the Klingons looked between TOS and TNG, I could buy this.  However the Klingons underwent an entire change in culture, attitude, and history along with their foreheads.  More than makeup, there was a change in philosophy of what the show was doing.

The original Klingons in TOS were supposed to represent the dark side of humanity.  The episodes were supposed to show us that we could improve ourselves.

The new Klingons in TNG were supposed to be admirable aliens.  The episodes were supposed to show us that there was no enemy so unpleasant that we could not get along with him, if only we'd stop to develop a little "understanding".

-S'Cipio
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."  - James Madison (chief author of the Constitution)

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Offline Alidar Jarok

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2005, 03:46:56 pm »
I think "little more understanding" aspect of the Klingons was started in Day of the Dove (to some degree), but I tend to agree.  Way of the Warrior did a little bit of addressing this issue (they didn't technically address it, just say that the Klingons might be returning to their old ways).  This two-parter will aparently adress the cultural change.
From Me to You - The Beatles

If there's anything that you want,
If there's anything i can do,
Just call on me and i'll send it along
With love from me to you.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2005, 06:39:16 pm »
Were it simply a matter of how the Klingons looked between TOS and TNG, I could buy this.  However the Klingons underwent an entire change in culture, attitude, and history along with their foreheads.  More than makeup, there was a change in philosophy of what the show was doing.

The original Klingons in TOS were supposed to represent the dark side of humanity.  The episodes were supposed to show us that we could improve ourselves.

The new Klingons in TNG were supposed to be admirable aliens.  The episodes were supposed to show us that there was no enemy so unpleasant that we could not get along with him, if only we'd stop to develop a little "understanding".

-S'Cipio

Thanks.  You saved me the trouble of saying the same.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2005, 10:47:26 pm »
Were it simply a matter of how the Klingons looked between TOS and TNG, I could buy this.  However the Klingons underwent an entire change in culture, attitude, and history along with their foreheads.  More than makeup, there was a change in philosophy of what the show was doing.

The original Klingons in TOS were supposed to represent the dark side of humanity.  The episodes were supposed to show us that we could improve ourselves.

The new Klingons in TNG were supposed to be admirable aliens.  The episodes were supposed to show us that there was no enemy so unpleasant that we could not get along with him, if only we'd stop to develop a little "understanding".

-S'Cipio

Thanks.  You saved me the trouble of saying the same.

I always thought they represented ommunists.
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
-Metallica

Offline E_Look

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2005, 10:25:49 am »
Not necessarily; just Russians, historically... I think!

Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2005, 08:00:59 pm »
I tought the klingons were the Chinese and the romulans were russians.  Am I wrong?
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
-Metallica

Offline Commander Maxillius

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2005, 09:32:38 pm »
I think he had it right the first time.

Klingons = Soviet Russians (hence the brashness of the modern Klingons, rough and tough, level 5 slap on the back meaning "hey buddy!" kind of Russians)
Romulans = Communist Chinese.  Very secretive, and still only come out when they have to.

I could add some others, if you don't mind a small hijack attempt...


Cardassians = Nazi Germans
Bajorans = Jews   these two explain themselves, just watch DS9

I'm sure there are more..(if this is popular enough, could it be moved to it's own thread, Stephen?)
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Offline E_Look

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2005, 09:41:20 pm »
Well, in a strict military geopolitical interpretation, I think you'd be very right, but they've always given me the impression culturally and religiously as India, especially given some of the structures and ideas in Bajoran beliefs.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2005, 09:56:47 pm »
I'd say the TOS Klingons were more WWII Japan. 

Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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Offline Clark Kent

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2005, 10:06:19 pm »
Klingons as china or WWII japan?
Um no.  you see, chinese women, and other asians, are hot.  Klingon women are not.
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
-Metallica

Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2005, 10:56:31 pm »
Klingons as china or WWII japan?
Um no.  you see, chinese women, and other asians, are hot.  Klingon women are not.


That's because you are thinking of the wrong "Klingon" women.

You want this



You don't want this:


-S'Cipio
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."  - James Madison (chief author of the Constitution)

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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2005, 12:30:30 am »
If I recall correctly, the

Klingons = Soviets...which conveniently went away right about the time that the Eastern Bloc started fading...whether it was prophecy on Gene's part or just foresight into what was going on in the World I don't know.  However, ST 6 is a great perspective of a relation into what the Klingon Empire was facing as compared to what the USSR of the time was facing.

Romulans = Chinese...which also went hand in hand with the next portion which was

Vulcans = Japanese...What with the original slanted eyes and all

Cardassians I believe originally were going to represent the third world organizations that were trying to attain secret weapons and technology.  Either South America or the Middle Eastern nations.  However, they evolved differently after that, but I still think they represented the Middle East in some ways more than anything else, especially in their relation to the Bajorans, who granted probably represented more like the Jews.

I don't know what the Dominion represented.

The Federation in TOS represented the USA and the alliance of Western Nations sometimes.  However the way the Fedderation was changed in TNG times...so though I'd still suppose it represented the same thing...I'm not 100% certain as the Federation was a LOT more socialistic after TNG.

The Klingons also changed after TNG.  They started out similar, but then changed into more of a Japanese/African cross of culture with honor, tribal family houses and connections, and vying for the throne, as well as being led by a tribal...I mean Klingon High Council.  So after TNG I'm not certain what they represented either...perhaps after TNG there was less of a symbology between the real world and Star Trek.

I have no idea who the Borg represented either.  Probably just a fearsome enemy that would raise ratings?

TOS had tons of symbology, but much of it changed during TNG, and after TNG was very different.
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Offline E_Look

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Re: Come on people...
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2005, 01:33:00 am »
Come on Dash...

... ST-VI The Undiscovered Country was released December 10th, 1991.  The Berlin Wall fell over two years before that on November 9, 1989.  And three years before that, on April 26, 1986, there was the Chernobyl disaster.  I think that was enough time to transcrib... uh, get inspired by it enough to write a plot and screenplay.  Gorbachev resigned on December 25, 1991.  The Soviet Union itself didn't officially close up shop until December 31, 1991.  (Oh, this warms my heart, by the way.)

If you want political foresight from a creative type, check out an old DOS based political PC (personal computer, not political correctness) game from the former Spectrum Holobyte company called Crisis in the Kremlin; to some degree of correctness, it billed itself as "the game that predicted the fall of the Soviet Union".  And, I think that was fair, for the game itself was a simulation of management of the USSR from a political-statesmanship persepective and if you failed, the (E.) Empire fell.  (I could never "win" the game; I wonder if it was indeed possible... even in reality!)

Roddenberry had a couple of decent ideas for the future; but I don't think he foresaw the fall of the Soviet Union.  I think we (especially we Trek nuts) would have heard more on that if he did.