Topic: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items  (Read 4208 times)

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Offline OlBuzzard

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Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« on: January 10, 2005, 02:49:54 pm »
I'm almost certain that the is no specfic hand book on the subject of the afore mentioned items for "Trek" wheather Klingon, Fed, Romulan ... 

but ..  I am certain that an accurate study has been done and we know the difference between TOS ...  TMP and TNG.  We have, infact been able to extrapilate late TNG Federation designs.  If we are to be more affective in our dessigns. I would like to know what sources for research I can employ in order to begin my next 3 projects (possibly 4th)

1.  Federation ship (to be named) late TNG era
2.  Romulan ship (to be named)  Late TNG
3.  Klingon Heavy Battle Cruiser (possibly DN class late TNG)
4.  (possible Gorn also late TNG)

I realize that a lot of the textues we use have Aztecs ( I believe that is their appropriate name)  ..  that have been done quite well .   Many are of them from P81.  I would feel much better about all of this if my knowlege on this subject was better grounded.

PLEASE post the best place for me to read, or DL materials needed.

The next sketch has already began.  This time I need to have it done as much as possible with as much detail as I can get.

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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2005, 05:04:51 pm »
here is an aztec tut...
Rob

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Offline Wicked Zombie

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2005, 05:20:29 pm »
It depends on what the ship is based on. Most panels tend to conform to the area of the ship they are on and follow the lines of each section. Very rarely will you see the same section of panels/details overflow onto another part.

Federation: The Sovereign has a lot of 'pixels' and 'squares' in the hull paneling. The Constitution has a basic aztec pattern. The Galaxy is similar, only the panels are much more obvious. The Excelsior has the Connie aztecs but with 'pixels' overlaid on them (kind of like the later Sovereign). The Intrepid, Defiant, Akira and most other ships from the FC era don't have much in the way of aztecs and tend to have colored panels and grid lines.

Klingons: In the TMP era the Klingon ships have raised puzzle-like panel detailing. By TNG, their ships have more of an angled/spear shaped type of hull panels. Both styles follow the shapes and lines of the section of the ship they are on.

Romulans: There obviously aren't a lot of canon references for their ships but they all have a bird/feather style paneling. The D'deridex's are subtle, with a vague bit of airbrush/weathering around the lines. The Valdore is more complex, with raised varying panels, like rounded versions of the Klingons'.

As far as TOS is concerned, the ships have relatively flat/simple details with less than obvious panels (if any).

It's also reasonable that the larger the ship is, the more diverse the panels are, and the smaller it is, the less panels it has - at least by the TNG era anyway. It should also be noted that while p81's aztecs are used a lot, they don't exactly hold up to scrutiny when a ship is seen up close. The raised panels and beveled parts/grid lines tend to detract from the overall appearance, especially on the TMP era ships since they're supposed to have more subtle detailing.

I suggest simply looking at the various ships and get a better sense of what each style/era has. It's also best to look at the ships you're going to be basing your design on and take elements from those before inspecting others. If you need any specific examples I could provide them.
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Klingon Texture Tutorial - Aztec Summary



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Offline OlBuzzard

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2005, 08:48:53 pm »
A BIG tip of the hat and a word of thanks to bot of you.  This was what I was looking for.  I was on the right track ..  but as a novice in certain aspects of the desiging of ships I weas still uncertain. 

WZ  .. I know exactly what ya mean on those pannels sir....  TOS Ships were smoooth and very little detail.  By the time TMP ships were released there were changes (though contraversial to some) in the texturing to those same pannels. 

I might ask this if I may.  For example on a Sovy ..  the texture sheets that are turned into pannels....  do you creat those your self.  Or do you use someone else texture sheet and then do your own lay outs or hull plating varriants of that texture sheet?  ( uhhh  I hope I said that right ?)

Just currious ??

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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2005, 10:00:37 pm »
WZ thanks for those tips, you just saved me a load of time figurein git out lol
Rob

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Offline OlBuzzard

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2005, 10:12:56 pm »
Tuss  ...  you knot head !!!   LOL...  sheesh !!!

Both tools are what I was needing !! But as with any tool ..  without a little wisdom to go with it !!  .. 

BTW  if ya look I gave BOTH of ya a + Karma thingy ..  I thought you might have caught that earlier ..  just the same ( sorry to have seemed a bit lop-sided)

 8) 8) 8)
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Offline Wicked Zombie

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2005, 03:59:53 am »
I tend to create my own textures for various reasons (pride and ego notwithstanding). It just makes things easier when you want to modify something, you don't have to clean up someone else's texture or spend a lot of time rearranging parts and blending everything. Essentially, the bulk of my ship textures are based on a few sets of 'blank' aztec patterns. Most details are hand (mouse?) drawn, using an image of the area of the mesh I'm texturing (the saucer or hull, for example) for a point of reference so details don't overlap and so everything will conform to the shapes. Once the shapes are created, I can then fill them in if needed and replace the colors with an aztec pattern, add more details, etc. It's also smart to keep each type of detail for the texture in a separate layer (the windows, the lines, the aztec, the mesh reference, etc.) so that when you modify one part, you don't have to redo the entire thing. Most image programs such as Paint Shop Pro and Photoshop support the layer feature so it's just a matter of familiarizing yourself with the program.

Even though my Sovereigns are a few years outdated, the basic methods I used on their textures still hold up. I don't remember exactly how I did it, but I created a regular aztec pattern first (typically a 512 x 512 bitmap), then varied the brightness/contrast and other settings and reduced the map down to a 2 color black and white image. This gave the result of a bunch of white boxes/pixels on a black background, remarkably similar to those on the Sovereign. Then it's just a matter of replacing the two colors with the ones found on each section of the Sovereign's hull (see example below). I could also take just the pixels and overlay them on top of a regular aztec pattern for an added bit of detail.

To help get a perspective on things, I'll touch a bit on the basic details of the Sovereign (since it's typically perceived as one of the more difficult ships to duplicate). The first thing to notice is the saucer and it's varied detailing. Since the Nemesis version, the aztecs are much more obvious compared to the subtle panels on the First Contact model. The center of the saucer has the 'pixel' panels, along with inner shapes and complex grid lines. The 'flat' part just outside of it has a less cluttered pattern with fewer lines and obviously darker colors. The outer segment lacks the grid lines but returns to the cluttered set of pixels that the inner set has, again with it's own color scheme. The rim of the saucer has sections of panels along with a darker scheme and cluttered pixels. This same routine applies to the bottom of the saucer where each 'step' has it's own subtly different change in colors. The hull follows a similar style, except the panels have more uniform colors and don't vary as much.

Next up is the 'command deck' of the saucer which lacks any aztec pattern whatsoever. Instead, there are panels and colored shapes (note that they don't extend to the edge of the deck, so there's a brief 'line' of hull color in between). There are also various shapes and boxes, most of which have more shapes inside of them that are essentially smaller versions of themselves. One interesting thing to note (in the green markers) is that some of these shapes have 'inlines' that take the same shape of the panels; this is more prevalent on the secondary hull paneling and adds an extra bit of style to the ship while not being overly complicated. In addition, there are 'spider-web' lines in the same shape as the deck triangle that all converge at the front into a single point.

Lastly, there are the remaining shapes (blue marker) - the boxes, the bridge decks, the cove (hull scoop), and various other tidbits across the ship. Most of their panels have the same shapes, it's just that parts of them are removed, like a puzzle that's missing some pieces. Picture the full shape of a panel, then cut away parts of it (in some cases, a majority of it) and there you have the 'inner' panel detail. Also, some of the shapes are recessed, while others are protruding.

Obviously, I didn't go into the technical aspects and label anything after it's 'real' purpose - I'm simply looking at things from an artistic standpoint. Taking the engineering viewpoint comes later, after you've gotten the basic ship created and can then concentrate on any potential design/realism/construction problems you might have missed.



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Klingon Texture Tutorial - Aztec Summary



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Offline OlBuzzard

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2005, 08:50:53 am »
Once again this has been a BIG help ..  It kinda looks like I'm on the right track..  but I have a LOT of catch-up learning to do. 

BTW...  I already use the "layers" concept when doing a single pict for the work we've doing as it is.  Now I need to develop the details such as the Aztecs and other aspects in to a more refined artistic rendering of a given aspect of the project we are working on.  This information that you and Tus have BOTH provided will help me to take yet another step in that direction.

thanks again sir !
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Offline Adonis

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2005, 09:14:28 am »
Oh, and OldBuzzard, don't forget that TNG Fed ships have patterns and detail on every square inch of their hull, that's imperative, and the TMP feds tho like WZ said the Connie has a on first look nearly no aztecs, just a plain Satin-White hull, but the composite layout of her can be seen only when her hull is lightened, i.e. in modeling terms, in case of the Connie, the aztecs would go to the specular maps
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Offline KBF-Kurok

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2005, 09:35:44 am »
great stuff here guys. Makes me want to try from scratch.

Offline OlBuzzard

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Re: Aztecs, hull plating, and other items
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2005, 10:22:25 am »
great stuff here guys. Makes me want to try from scratch.

You are sooo right my old friend !  I need to focus not only the Feddies  ..  but Klingon as well.  So many of the others the details are sketchy .. but both Klingon and Fed a like have a lot of data that we can ALL learn more about and try to do a better job representing.

I'm just getting started in a lot of this ..  so ... I have MUCH work to do  ..  and a lot of learning as we progress.

I deeply appreciate the patience of the senior modelers who have undoubtedly answered some of these questions DOZENS of times.

KUDOS guys ..  and as always ...

thanks
If you aim at nothing:  you WILL hit it every time !