Topic: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS  (Read 10376 times)

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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« on: December 29, 2004, 06:10:51 pm »
Here is a listing of Hull Registries I saw in TOS, TNG, DS9, and certain movies.. on hull registries that did not show the ship name, I crossed checked with Paramount Studios... there are about 5 or 6 that I have Hull Registries for but Paramount was unable to cross match to a ship name...

Anyhow, here is the canon list of Constitution Class ships with their canon hull Registries along with Episode they were shown or mentioned in which were crossed checked by Paramount Studios for Canon referencing..



U.S.S. Constellation NCC-1017 TOS "The Doomsday Machine"

U.S.S. Constitution NCC-1700 (identified by wall status display) TOS "Court Martial", Seen on Computer display TNG "DataLore", Seen on Computer display Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, TOS "Space Seed" (Medical Display panel in the infirmiry).

U.S.S. Defiant NCC-1764 TOS "The Tholian Web"

U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 TOS All Episodes

U.S.S. Essex NCC-1697 (identified by wall status display) TOS "Court Martial" Crossed with Paramount Studios

U.S.S. Excalibur NCC-1664 TOS "The Ultimate Computer", (identified by wall status display) TOS "Court Martial"

U.S.S. Excelsior NCC-1718 (identified by wall status display) TOS "Court Martial" Crossed with Paramount Studios

U.S.S. Exeter NCC-1672 TOS "The Omega Glory", (identified by wall status display) TOS "Court Martial"

U.S.S. Farragut NCC-1647 TOS "Obsession"

U.S.S. Hood NCC-1703 TOS "The Ultimate Computer", (identified by wall status display) TOS "Court Martial"

U.S.S. Intrepid NCC-1631 TOS "Court Martial", TOS "The Immunity Syndrome"

U.S.S. Kongo NCC-1710 Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (Identified on a computer display panel and crossed with Paramount Studios).

U.S.S. Lexington NCC-1709 TOS "The Ultimate Computer", (identified by wall status display) TOS "Court Martial", DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations"

U.S.S. Potemkin NCC-1657 TOS "The Ultimate Computer", TOS "Turnabout Intruder"

U.S.S. Republic NCC-1371 (identified by wall status display) TOS "Court Martial" Crossed with Paramount Studios

U.S.S. Yorktown NCC-1717 TOS "Obsession"



I'll post more as soon as I can get information on them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2004, 08:35:43 pm by Pestalence »
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Offline markyd

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2004, 06:39:42 pm »
Should come in usefull....   

either it took you a while to compile that list or your a spotter  :P

Jk. Nice work Pesty  :D

Offline TheStressPuppy

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2004, 07:05:30 pm »
Out of curiousity could u post pics or where u got this info from?

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2004, 07:26:58 pm »
I think I can guess, but what do you mean by wall status display?

Offline Lord Schtupp

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2004, 08:06:21 pm »
Like I said in Spups thread its difficult to believe the ships in the cout martial list being all Constitution class cruisers.

Offline Captain Pierce

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2004, 08:14:54 pm »
I think I can guess, but what do you mean by wall status display?


Probably this:

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Offline FPF-Wanderer

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2004, 12:47:51 am »
Well, since we're pulling out the "Canon" stuff, I figure the SFB stuff needs some representin'.  Hope ya don't mind, Pesty.  ;)  Might as well have it all in one thread.  ;D

I left in some SFB "historic" notes, just for fun, heheh...

CA/CC - Heavy Cruisers/Command Cruisers (Constitution Class)

1700 Constitution
1701 Enterprise
1702 Farragut -CC converted to CVS
1703 Lexington -Commodore Anthony Stocker, SFB, Commanding Officer
1704 Yorktown
1705 Excalibur
1706 Exeter
1707 Hood -Destoyed near the Klingon border at the start of the General War. The saucer section escaped, hiding in the ocean of a nearby planet.
1708 Intrepid
1709 Valiant
1710 Kongo -Commodore Phillip Knosett
1711 Potemkin
1712 Bon Homme Richard
1713 Monitor
1714 Hornet
1715 Merrimac
1716 Endeavor -CC converted to CVS
1717 Defiance
1718 Excelsior -CC converted to CVS
1719 Eagle -Presumably lost prior to '69; see CF listings.
1720 Lafayette
1721 Wasp
1722 El Dorado
1723 Ari
1724 Saratoga
1725 Tori
1726 Krieger
1727 Essex

-Most surviving CA's were refit as CC's.
-Most surviving CC's were refit to CB's.

CB - Heavy Command Cruiser

1728 Gettysburg -Captain George E Pickett
1729 Kadesh
1730 Thermopolae
1731 Cannae
1732 Alesia
1733 Isandhlwana
1734 Gravelotte
1735 Tannenburg
1736 Kursk
1737 Coral Sea
1738 Inchon
1739 Khe Sahn
1740 Golan
1741 Alfeld
1742 Austerlitz
1743 Panjshe
1744 Suomussalmi
1745 Rocrol
1746 Poltava
1747 Rossbach
1748 Gaugamela
1749 Vincennes
1750 Basra

CA - Cruisers (Conversions of previous classes)

1017 Constellation
1018 Goeben
1019 Eximer
1020 Oriskany -Assigned to Star Fleet Academy as a training vessel.
1371 Republic
1372 Reshadije
1373 Ramilles

CA - Other Heavy Cruisers

1601 Agincourt  (refit as CAD)
1605 Port Moresby
1612 Pharsallus
1621 Hastings
1635 Isandlwana -Presumably lost prior to the launch of CB-1733.
1649 Arbela

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Offline Mackie

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2004, 01:28:56 am »
Suomussalmi.... lol ;p
http://www.suomussalmi.fi/matkailu/en/index.html
Battle for Suomussalmi
http://home.interserv.com/%7Etazio/7dSuomu.htm
kinda funny seeing Finnish names in the ship list  :P

nice list though ;D
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Offline KtHyla

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2004, 02:58:25 am »
All of the onscreen mentions of the TOS Connies are compiled in the ST Encyclopedia...

Excelsior isn't mentioned as a TOS Connie in the 'Cyclopedia, and Kongo's TMP.

One that you are missing is USS Republic NCC-1371. It was mentioned in "Court Martial": Both Kirk and Ben Finney served together on her around 2250.

Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2004, 04:24:06 pm »
All of the onscreen mentions of the TOS Connies are compiled in the ST Encyclopedia...

Excelsior isn't mentioned as a TOS Connie in the 'Cyclopedia, and Kongo's TMP.

One that you are missing is USS Republic NCC-1371. It was mentioned in "Court Martial": Both Kirk and Ben Finney served together on her around 2250.

The ST Encyclopedia references several ships.. In my research with the ships in my listing vs the ships in the Encyclopedia.. over 1/2 of the ships on the list are given incorrect hull registries in the ST Encyclopedia..

also since the Encyclopedia is a book, it is a non canon reference anyways.. only what is seen onscreen is referenced for canon.. anything not onscreen is non canon.

Stress.. the picture listed above is where I got the hull registries from and crossed some to other TOS episodes like "The Ultimate Computer" others I had to send off to Paramount for verification on the ship names. They have a very limited listing for Hull Registries (mainly only those either mentioned or shown on TV) that was provided by Gene Roddenberry... all the hull registries that are not shown on TV either do not exist or the ships were never mentioned.. so the hull registries not shown on TV are all open for whatever name people want.. now TMP may have different registries for the ship names, but in TOS, what was not seen on TV doesn't exist and the registries are open.... at least according to Paramount...

Also, i have a 52" Plasma HDTV and have my laptop hooked up to it for playing back DVD's.. several ships in "The Ultimate Computer" you can just barely make out the hull registries if you zoom in enough...

Anyhow.. these are what paramount classified as Canon.. other ships in the image above from TOS were never given names onscreen or in the original scripting.. as such the registries exist.. but no one knows the names.
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Offline USS Mariner

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2004, 07:35:09 pm »
All of the onscreen mentions of the TOS Connies are compiled in the ST Encyclopedia...

Excelsior isn't mentioned as a TOS Connie in the 'Cyclopedia, and Kongo's TMP.

One that you are missing is USS Republic NCC-1371. It was mentioned in "Court Martial": Both Kirk and Ben Finney served together on her around 2250.

But we're never sure if that's actually a Constitution or an older starship class. It was never mentioned afterall, and the year could allow for both to be a possibility.
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Offline Captain Pierce

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2004, 07:52:11 pm »
Also, i have a 52" Plasma HDTV and have my laptop hooked up to it for playing back DVD's.. several ships in "The Ultimate Computer" you can just barely make out the hull registries if you zoom in enough...

You don't really think that they actually changed registries in "Ultimate Computer," do you?  Cripes, even in "Star Trek IV" they didn't have enough of a budget to repaint the Reliant's registry, take a close look at that sometime on your HDTV...  :rolleyes:

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Anyhow.. these are what paramount classified as Canon..

Paramount classifies Enterprise as canon, that pretty rules them out as a reliable source.  :D

Quote
other ships in the image above from TOS were never given names onscreen or in the original scripting.. as such the registries exist.. but no one knows the names.

NO ships from the image above were given names onscreen (other than Intrepid)...  the mere fact that names for other Constitution-class ships were mentioned on-screen does not in any way relate them to this image...  and, again, the Encyclopedia assignment of NCC-1831 to Intrepid is completely ridiculous, especially considering that the Encyclopedia was written at LEAST after NCC-1864 had been established as Reliant's registry, and possibly even after NCC-1837 had been established as an earlier Miranda in TNG...
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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2004, 08:14:56 pm »
Umm.. even though the name wasn't given on screen.. you can write paramount and ask them for the copies of the original scripting for the episode which does contain several ship names and classifications.. many of them on the chart are constitution class, as written by Gene Roddenberry... I have ordered a copy of the original screenplay from paramount, they said i should get it in 4 to 6 weeks.. I'll scan it and post it here when I finally get it.
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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2004, 08:58:14 pm »
Umm.. even though the name wasn't given on screen.. you can write paramount and ask them for the copies of the original scripting for the episode which does contain several ship names and classifications.. many of them on the chart are constitution class, as written by Gene Roddenberry... I have ordered a copy of the original screenplay from paramount, they said i should get it in 4 to 6 weeks.. I'll scan it and post it here when I finally get it.


Wow. Nice job Pesty. It'd be interesting to see exactly what the script says, though I'm not sure if it'll change many minds.

Good luck with that belated Christmas gift though. ;)
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Offline IndyShark

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2004, 09:34:15 pm »
Umm.. even though the name wasn't given on screen.. you can write paramount and ask them for the copies of the original scripting for the episode which does contain several ship names and classifications.. many of them on the chart are constitution class, as written by Gene Roddenberry... I have ordered a copy of the original screenplay from paramount, they said i should get it in 4 to 6 weeks.. I'll scan it and post it here when I finally get it.


That woud be very cool. Thanks Pestalence!

Offline RBM

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2004, 06:02:03 am »
Umm.. even though the name wasn't given on screen.. you can write paramount and ask them for the copies of the original scripting for the episode which does contain several ship names and classifications.. many of them on the chart are constitution class, as written by Gene Roddenberry... I have ordered a copy of the original screenplay from paramount, they said i should get it in 4 to 6 weeks.. I'll scan it and post it here when I finally get it.

I seriously doubt GR had anything to do with the creation of that chart on Commodore Stone's wall. If anything, it would have been done by or in consultation with Matt Jefferies. If so, then the only ships on the chart which might be Constitution class are those with 17## registries, consistent with the system he devised when designing the Enterprise. This is where the "17" indicates the seventeenth cruiser design and "00" the prototype with "01"the first production model. Also arguing against all those ships being Connies is the fact that in ST Star Fleet is portrayed as fairly small. Why would most of the fleet be at Starbase 10?

Paramount and the Encyclopedia use a list of Constitution-class ships and registries devised by Greg Jein when he was a fan. The article, "The Case of John Doe Starship" can be found at Trekplace. It ignores the Jefferies numbering system, carried forward by Franz Joseph with his "batch" numbers in his Tech Manual, and plays fast and loose with the official Connie list in The Making of Star Trek. Personally, I dislike it because its like the TNG registry--I hesitate to call it a "system"--process where numbers fly willy-nilly.

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2004, 06:09:49 am »
Umm.. even though the name wasn't given on screen.. you can write paramount and ask them for the copies of the original scripting for the episode which does contain several ship names and classifications.. many of them on the chart are constitution class, as written by Gene Roddenberry... I have ordered a copy of the original screenplay from paramount, they said i should get it in 4 to 6 weeks.. I'll scan it and post it here when I finally get it.

I seriously doubt GR had anything to do with the creation of that chart on Commodore Stone's wall. If anything, it would have been done by or in consultation with Matt Jefferies. If so, then the only ships on the chart which might be Constitution class are those with 17## registries, consistent with the system he devised when designing the Enterprise. This is where the "17" indicates the seventeenth cruiser design and "00" the prototype with "01"the first production model. Also arguing against all those ships being Connies is the fact that in ST Star Fleet is portrayed as fairly small. Why would most of the fleet be at Starbase 10?

Paramount and the Encyclopedia use a list of Constitution-class ships and registries devised by Greg Jein when he was a fan. The article, "The Case of John Doe Starship" can be found at Trekplace. It ignores the Jefferies numbering system, carried forward by Franz Joseph with his "batch" numbers in his Tech Manual, and plays fast and loose with the official Connie list in The Making of Star Trek. Personally, I dislike it because its like the TNG registry--I hesitate to call it a "system"--process where numbers fly willy-nilly.


If this is true, then explain the Constitution Class U.S.S. Constellation NCC-1017 as shown in the episode "The Doomsday Machine" ?  where is it's NCC-17**.. this is a NCC-10** series constitution... so your reference material is invalid. Jefferies is the one who designed the ship model.. Gene Roddenberry is the one who named them, but then again Gene diss slack off on naming each and every ship about the middle of the 2nd season and hardly did any naming in the 3rd season except where it was needed for the screen.
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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2005, 07:28:35 am »
If this is true, then explain the Constitution Class U.S.S. Constellation NCC-1017 as shown in the episode "The Doomsday Machine" ?
Note I said the 17** was the system Jefferies devised while designing the ship. As production designer, he would have no control over the naming of the ships or their registries save where the producers and writers chose to seek and follow his advice. However, the logical assumption is that if it were Jefferies who devised chart on Starbase 10 chart he would have done so with said scheme in mind and not the inverse alphabetical order Jein used which subsequently became the basis for Mike Okuda's (and thus Paramount's) registries in the Encyclopedia, the Operation Retrieve chart from TUC, etc.

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where is it's NCC-17**.. this is a NCC-10** series constitution...
Constellation, the only possible Connie from the series with a definative registry, is a problem. The NCC-1017 number is no doubt the result of the model makers at the effects house simply rearranging the numbers from the AMT kit used as Constellation without regard to any order or system. The only explanations for the number are:
1. It's a mistake generated in the effects production.
2. Registry numbers are not assigned in blocks or according to any system other than chronological. Ships get a number as they come up for construction. This seems to be how TNG-era registries are assigned.
3. Constellation, despite outward appearences, isn't a Constitutuion class starship, but belongs to an older, visually similar class. Think of it as the difference between two U.S. WWII battleships, one South Dakota class, a second Iowa. Very similar, at least at first glance. Note this class would not be part of the assumed Constitution > BonHomme Richard > Achernar > Tikopai upgrades.
4. Much as above except Constellation has been upgraded from a different class to look like a Connie, the Daedelus option.
5. Constellation's registry has been carried forward from an earlier ship in honor of it, much as NCC-1701 has been used for all subsequent Enterprises and the Galaxy class Yamato's registry was mentioned in dialogue as NCC-1305-E. I'd say this explains the supposed Constitution U.S.S. Eagle's low NCC-956 on the Operation Retrieve chart.

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Jefferies is the one who designed the ship model.. Gene Roddenberry is the one who named them, but then again Gene diss slack off on naming each and every ship about the middle of the 2nd season and hardly did any naming in the 3rd season except where it was needed for the screen.
Jefferies' scheme was adopted by Franz Joseph for the Tech Manual (and thus is the source of registries/name in SFB and SFC), which was approved by Roddenberry and official until he chose to rescind that decision in a dispute over credits and money. If one wants to cite GR's authority, at what point in the timeline of you chose? When one set of data was vaild or when a second set supplanted it?
 
Quote
so your reference material is invalid.
The same could be said of Jein's scheme Okuda/Paramount adopted for assigning registries and names not seen definatively onscreen. Despite their use in the Encyclopedia and on Paramount's site, any of those designations could be completely invalidated by subsequent productions. In the absence of canon (defined as onscreen) evidence, it is up to the individual to chose which methodology to use in assigning placeholder registries for ships with undefined numbers.

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2005, 08:39:44 am »
Ok.. lets look at a few facts...

how old was enterprise when Kirk got her???

She was 25 years old when Kirk took command and the ship was already under voyage during it's first year of it's historic 5 year voyage....

12 ships were comissioned for the 5 year voyage, no where onscreen did they state that only 12 were built.. in fact, if you look at the listing that I have, it already shows 16 confirmed CA's from TOS.

Next the hulls were most probably given registry numbers in order of production, reguardless of hull design.. as such a DD could have been the NCC- 1016, a CA could have been NCC-1017, then a Friggit could have been NCC-1018, etc...

also the CA is not a Constitution Class.. on the Dedication plaque for the Enterprise it clearly stated "Starship Class".. in several TOS episodes, Kirk called it a Spaceship, as in Starship class Spaceship, and in The Cage it was referred to as such in a round about manner by the navagation officer as well as having it repeated in The Managerie.... Ships of the era were classified by thier duty role.

Next, no one ever stated onscreen that the Constitution is the First of line of the Hull Design... the U.S.S. Constitution is the first CA to have been assigned to the 5 year deep space mission, then Enterprise was assigned, and so were 10 other ships of the CA hull... Hull registry had no bearing seeing as how the ships were already at least 24 years old when the assignment was handed down... thus due to age of the ship hull, they were expendable, though the crews were highly trained and valued, the actual ship hull was expendable because it was so old.

the "12" as people call them were not the first 12 built of the line... the ships were already at least 24 years old when chosen for the duty role.. 12 were selected because UFP thought it might be very dangerous going into Deep space and because maybe ships would be somewhat close enough to render aid to each other and because the ships were already aged and the hulls somewhat expendable. The remaining CA hulls were for SOL sector defense and to be used as transports for Ambassadors and VIP's between UFP planets and to defend the Neutral Zone from envasion.

How many CA's were built... that is Unknown.. what is known is that the Enterprise was the first starship to return home after completing the historic 5 year mission.. Never is it stated onscreen that she was the only ship to return .. some ships may have returned before Enterprise being so damaged that Starfleet could not send them back out, others were lost in line of duty, and some returned later... Enterprise's fame came from being the first ship to return after successfully completing the 5 year mission.. Kirk was rewarded by being given another 5 year mission in the same 29 year old ship...

as for the U.S.S. Eagle, that has not been confirmed by Paramount as a CA hull.. as such it was omitted from my listing on purpose....

Finally, I have ordered Gene Roddenberry's original screen plays for a majority of TOS episodes in which Gene named several ships, (even those not shown on screen).. hopefully I can scan it when it arrives and put it up for others to read. (paramount stated 4 to 6 weeks).

FJ never read GR's playwrites for the episodes.. he just got buddy buddy with GR and GR acted like he didn't much care what was going on in the world of Books.. FJ's fame started getting bigger and bigger to where FJ started bashing GR when ever an episode came out with a ship that contradicted his book.. Gene got miffed at FJ for being so self glorified and in 1978 declaired that anything not seen onscreen is not canon and conjectural.. canon is establised only by what is seen onscreen.. ever since then 1000's of books have came out trying to name the ships or give ship specs.. all of whaich are NON CANON.. if you are looking in a book for facts on Trek.. you may as well throw it away and look at the silver screen.. the only thing that is as close to Canon to Trek as possible is the Playwrites of GR and even with Gene's decree it technically is not canon... but since the episodes were made directly off the  playwrites, then we can determine what the ships names and numbers are according to Gene.. FJ be damned.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2005, 08:50:23 am by Pestalence »
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Offline Chris Johnson

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Re: Canon references for the Constitution Class Starships in TOS
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2005, 09:43:21 am »
Here's some parts of discussion (in order) from TSP's Constitution-class model thread:

Just a question... Why just go for absolute canon all the time?  Canon information can be a mixed bag at times, from starship specs and design evolution to Earth's very own History.  Everyone can compare the NX-01 to her twenty-fourth century counterpart the Akira-class Starship, and then compare with another 22nd-century Earth vessel, the Daedelus and see how cheesy and primitive it looks in comparison to the more-developed NX-01.  It may even be a newer design rather than the simple sphere and cylindrical hull later on in the series. 
As for history, first contact with Romulans came first in canon, then Klingons in the early-23rd century.  Then came Enterprise, where Klingons were found in 2151 rather than 2218, and how cloaking devices were commonly seen yet is a suprise in "Balance of Terror" (TOS) to Kirk and crew when they found the more-primitive-looking Romulan ship appear and disappear with their uncloak-attack-cloak manuvering.

My point is that canon information is a mixed bag as I said before.  You don't know what to trust: The previously-established canon or the newly-established canon?  Do we trust Worf's knowledge of Earth weapons development and disreguard the NX-01 completely due to its Phaser and Photon weaponry?  Or do we say that Worf was wrong all along when he said "There are no phasers in the twenty-second century." in "A Matter of Time" (TNG)?  What is transwarp, really?  Infinate speed from point A to point B or just another Slip Stream-esque conduit as if it came from Stargate or Babylon 5? 

We do take canon info a lot, but shouldn't we spit out some things we chew?
B and B did not like Gene Roddenberry's dream for Trek.. they want ratings and in the process they are destroying the Trek series from the inside out with the fans... Enterprise as a series, if you think about it as an alternate universe or even the mirror universe, then it is great... otherwise, if you look at it in the Trek timelike most of us who watched TOS in the beginning.. Enterprise is a disgrace to the Trek franchise period...

Gene Roddenberry stated.. if it is on the big screen or on TV, it is canon.. and if someone puts something on screen that contradicts a previous episode.. the the Oldest episode is canon since the script writers couldn't do their job in researching older scripts...

as such, TOS canon takes precidence.. then TNG then DS9 then Voyager, then Ent.. since Ent is nothing but contradiction of established canon.. it must be an alternate universe or even the mirror universe if it intends to claim itself as a Trek production...

B and B did not like Gene Roddenberry's dream for Trek.. they want ratings and in the process they are destroying the Trek series from the inside out with the fans...

And yet they signed off on the Encyclopedia that has the same registries that you're quoting at us as "canon."

Quote
Gene Roddenberry stated.. if it is on the big screen or on TV, it is canon

Unless it's the Animated Series...  ;)
B and B did not like Gene Roddenberry's dream for Trek.. they want ratings and in the process they are destroying the Trek series from the inside out with the fans... Enterprise as a series, if you think about it as an alternate universe or even the mirror universe, then it is great... otherwise, if you look at it in the Trek timelike most of us who watched TOS in the beginning.. Enterprise is a disgrace to the Trek franchise period...

Gene Roddenberry stated.. if it is on the big screen or on TV, it is canon.. and if someone puts something on screen that contradicts a previous episode.. the the Oldest episode is canon since the script writers couldn't do their job in researching older scripts...

as such, TOS canon takes precidence.. then TNG then DS9 then Voyager, then Ent.. since Ent is nothing but contradiction of established canon.. it must be an alternate universe or even the mirror universe if it intends to claim itself as a Trek production...

So that means that Kirk really works for the UESPA, and all later episodes are wrong? ::) Just be careful how that could be intrepreted, because it can come back to bite you in the ass. I've had it do that to me several times. Ouch!

Anyway, funny you should mention the Mirror Universe, as ENT is actually going to have a Mirror Universe episode (totally Mirror Universe from Manny's interviews) by the end of the season. Isn't Coto...creative. ;)

Basically, I take ENT into what I term as "slective canon," as in acknowledge the exsistence of Archer, the NX-01 (it's exsistence, not all of it's design features ;)), and Earth Starfleet and the Vulcans, Andorians etc. But, I leave out all the bullsh*t that's cropped up, from Season 1 onward (yes, even the "beloved" Season 4, the season where Manny rewrites TOS scripts out the wazoo, and makes up insane garbage like "The Augments" by cutting and pasting different shows and movies together...) This way, I can have the Eugenics Wars and the DY-100 either before or as WWIII, and everybody else can keep eating the reprocessed garbage from VOY and ENT...
I think canon is overhyped most of the time.  Whilst I took most canonical info into consideration, I spitted out a big huge chunk of the more-recent stuff, and may spit out even more.  I don't know how to say this, but let's face it: We overhype our interest in Trek too much, so much so in fact that sometimes I feel some stuff are being dissed and shunned because it's not canon.  We all envision Trek differently, so our views clash.  Some like it for the space ships and kitbashing their own fancy good looking ships.  Some like it for what it was by heart, especially as what Gene wanted it to be.  Lets take some ship envisionment for example:  Whilst I like the Constitution-class, I figured it was made in the 2240s, not the 2210s.  Atrahasis would disagree and counter with his view.  We all have a view that is right in our own heads, but we must respect the opinions of others.  Like how people think DS9 is better because of all the space action, and believe the Sovereign-class is best because of how cool-looking it is and how it's armed to the teeth.  I respect that, but I think TOS or TNG was better due to Gene's influence and visions of both series.

Maybe it's just me, but my point is sometimes I feel some openly-expressed views on Trek can get shunned for the most rediculous reasons, and I just think if it is due to canon policy being popular, then why not shun canon and have our own views of Trek? 

(Also, keep in mind I may have not worded what I wanted to say exactly, but consider this close enough.)



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