Topic: Just curious, How many people like OOB?

[FPF-DieHard]

I find that comment disturbing, so you are saying that the players opinion doesnt matter? 

Honestly, appeasing the masses has no bearing on any decision I've ever made as an admin.  Part of the reason I got into the mess was because I got tired of bitching about how other servers were run and decided to step up.  Of course i want people to play, but I'm not going to set something up that I think is dumb and then go through the trouble of admining it.

Opinions are like assholes, most smell worse than mine.  

But then again, I'm a dick  

In terms of who plays thats utter BS, admins may say that they dont care about player numbers, what a crock of s**t, admins of course want to see players flooding their servers as it shows their effort that they put in is worthwhile and its not just them that like the server concept. If i ran a server spent ages developing on it and noone turned up i would be demorialised, perhaps its just personal opinion but surely i wouldnt be the only one who had that opinion if the same circumstances applied.

I would rather play the game i want to play with a lower number of people than to play a "Sockfoot's War" over and over again.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

   Last open server I played on (LB5) sucked so bad it was disgusting, just my preference. 

That wasn't the main reason for problems with that server, and it did use a partial OOB

You can always nag Dizzy to make SGO4 an open server 

  OH DIZZY.............

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Well I for one have no problem with admins setting up a server as they see fit without consulting others.  If you paint a picture and no one is paying you a commission for it, should you paint something you don't want to just because someone else wants you to do it? 

The idea presented, however, is that if admins are trying to create a server with a good mass appeal as an objective, it is important for them to know how players feel about various issues, and to look at any ideas presented, whether they use them or not.

I do not condemn the use of OOB in any form by an admin as I appreciate their efforts whether I like the result or not.  But this does not mean that I cannot offer suggestions and try to encourage them to consider other methods which I think are worth looking at.  If I ever get too bored with it I can always try to create my own vision, or move on to another game. 

One of the biggest factors in the loss of options and fun is player loss for whatever reason.  Therefore I am trying to come up with systems which might reach across differences in points of view on preferred setup, so as to have the best mass appeal.  It might work or it might fall on its face, but perhaps it deserves a chance, then again perhaps it doesn't.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Keeping the OOB as with GW4 but allowing transfers of ships more freely, allows for the exact same thing.

Incorrect, as Jeff's propossal makes no mention of using held planets as a basis for determining build points, one reason I like it better.

The CPs, didn't rely of planets, just the BPs. No reason they couldn't be treated the same per se. However, having BPs based on Planets better simulates the econ you were driving at earlier. They don't have to be based on planets, but could be based on other strategic assets like keeping open trade routes, or asteroid hexes, whatever.

Not exactly like I was proposing but sounds more interesting than having them planet based and It would be worth a shot.

You seem to want conflicting things, that can all be solved with a BP system, even though you have some religious objection to it.

Don't see them as conflicting at all, but if you see them as such how can your "magical" BP system solve them if they are in such conflict? 

And no I have no religious objection to it, if you would look at my post you will see that while I might prefer trying something else, I have stated that I have had fun flying on servers with a BP system, just that they might be more fun with a different system.  The use or non use of a BP system therefore hasn't kept me off a server, only limited my amount of time spent on it, hardly a religious objection, unlike someone who claims they will not fly at all on a non OOB server, or will not fly on one because of OOB.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I find that comment disturbing, so you are saying that the players opinion doesnt matter? 

Honestly, appeasing the masses has no bearing on any decision I've ever made as an admin.  Part of the reason I got into the mess was because I got tired of bitching about how other servers were run and decided to step up.  Of course i want people to play, but I'm not going to set something up that I think is dumb and then go through the trouble of admining it.

Opinions are like assholes, most smell worse than mine. 

But then again, I'm a dick   

In terms of who plays thats utter BS, admins may say that they dont care about player numbers, what a crock of s**t, admins of course want to see players flooding their servers as it shows their effort that they put in is worthwhile and its not just them that like the server concept. If i ran a server spent ages developing on it and noone turned up i would be demorialised, perhaps its just personal opinion but surely i wouldnt be the only one who had that opinion if the same circumstances applied.

I would rather play the game i want to play with a lower number of people than to play a "Sockfoot's War" over and over again.

He totally doesn't get it DH. He still thinks we should be working for him, and doesn't realize no one is stopping him from realizing his own vision.

[FPF-Bach]

Well I for one have no problem with admins setting up a server as they see fit without consulting others.  If you paint a picture and no one is paying you a commission for it, should you paint something you don't want to just because someone else wants you to do it? 

The idea presented, however, is that if admins are trying to create a server with a good mass appeal as an objective, it is important for them to know how players feel about various issues, and to look at any ideas presented, whether they use them or not.

I do not condemn the use of OOB in any form by an admin as I appreciate their efforts whether I like the result or not.  But this does not mean that I cannot offer suggestions and try to encourage them to consider other methods which I think are worth looking at.  If I ever get too bored with it I can always try to create my own vision, or move on to another game. 

One of the biggest factors in the loss of options and fun is player loss for whatever reason.  Therefore I am trying to come up with systems which might reach across differences in points of view on preferred setup, so as to have the best mass appeal.  It might work or it might fall on its face, but perhaps it deserves a chance, then again perhaps it doesn't.

Very well said Chutt!

[FPF-Bach]

He totally doesn't get it DH. He still thinks we should be working for him, and doesn't realize no one is stopping him from realizing his own vision.

Of course he gets it, he just has different opinion one which he is entitled to.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Not exactly like I was proposing but sounds more interesting than having them planet based and It would be worth a shot.

So at least one good idea did come out of this thread, ironic that it was mine. <snicker>

Don't see them as conflicting at all, but if you see them as such how can your "magical" BP system solve them if they are in such conflict? 

You wanted to allow more pilots to fly the ships they like. Ammending the GW4 OOB rules to allow easier transfers does this, while still maintaining those ships strategic significance to the larger campaign, and doesn't result in a cheese fest.

You also wanted a campaign that made use of strategic objective to effect econ, but what is the point of effecting econ if it doesn't effect team assets. Using the D2 native econ system with the shipyard and pricing, just plain doesn't work on many levels, including getting the shipyard to play nice. It also heavily favors nutters over casual players, and would mean that after a PvP loss you are doomed to PP farming. Not my idea of fun. However, an econ system that uses BPs and CPs to effect ship availability does work, it ain't perfect yet, but it is the best thing that I have heard for steering the servers that I will invest my efforts into that I have heard so far. When I hear a better idea I through out the old, as I have no other attachment to it.

[FPF-Bach]

They game is old, the player-base will delcine no matter what and even if we could get 100 people on a server with a cheesefest, i'd be bored of it and not likely play.

Exactly that's why those of us that are left need to try and work harder in order to at least try and maintain the player base that we DO still have.

[Kroma BaSyl]

He totally doesn't get it DH. He still thinks we should be working for him, and doesn't realize no one is stopping him from realizing his own vision.

Of course he gets it, he just has different opinion one which he is entitled to.

No he doesn't and appearently neither do you. You are absolutely entitled to your own opinions and entitled to spend your time working on and playing on servers you like.  He and you however, seem to think that I and other admins are obliged to waste our time on servers we don't like just because others want us to, but won't spend their own time creating them. Is it the fault of the admins that created and ran the most recent popular servers that they didn't meet your personnel expectations? Why can't someone else put up a server that meets their needs? Why do I have to agree with your idea of fun in order for you to have your fun? Make your own fun. It isn't our responsibility to insure your fun. It is your own. Some of us have taken on the responsibility for are own brand of fun, and you and Grim seem to think we owe it to you to tailer our brand of fun to meet your needs. You have implied that our idea of fun came out of malice or indifference to player needs, but this isn't true, that had nothing to do with it. It comes from experience and understanding of what is fun to ourselves and those we like to play with.

We welcome you to create your own brand of fun, and if it really is fun, we would like to play right along with you, but I ain't investing my efforts to achieve fun on ideas I don't feel will eventually be fun. And no matter what you and Grim think, it isn't my responsibility to do so. It is yours.

If there is enough of you with similar ideas get together and design a server, I am sure you can get DH or Frey to host, and I will even offer web space and design services. But if no one plays it, please don't blame it on that silly promotion crap, maybe it is the premise that is lacking.

[Kroma BaSyl]

They game is old, the player-base will delcine no matter what and even if we could get 100 people on a server with a cheesefest, i'd be bored of it and not likely play.

Exactly that's why those of us that are left need to try and work harder in order to at least try and maintain the player base that we DO still have.

Sounds like you just volunteered to run a community friendly and designed server. May God have mercy on your soul.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You also wanted a campaign that made use of strategic objective to effect econ, but what is the point of effecting econ if it doesn't effect team assets.

Economic VCs is also a part of my idea, right now VCs are awarded for things like bases and planets as well as destroyed ships, but other economic assets have been largely ignored.  An enemy taking economic damage would affect their willingness and ability to make war.

As for OOB not allowing for "cheese" fleets, I think it is more a matter of OOB redefining them, a player with a DN on the board when the other side doesn't have one available could also be considered cheese.  More free acess of transfers would definately help here, and I'm eager to see what you come up with but there are other difficulties with it (and likely the system which I proposed has its own deficiencies as well) which I have already addressed that will not be solved by easier transfers.  

[Grim]

I have my opinion and you have yours Kroma i accept that its of course something we are both entitled to. On a serious note this thread is getting perhaps a bit too heated...

[FPF-Bach]

I am sure you are, but you seem to be unaware of the fact that DH and I were laughing at the fact that Grims post seemed to indicate that he is not. Instead you read it as general condemnation of new ideas.

I don't think your reading Grim's true intent.  Why do you think his concerns are funny?  He is concerned about a dwindling playerbase and is making a statement about trying not to piss people off which COULD POSSIBLY dwindle it further whether intentional or not.  Also I didn't read anything as a condemnation of new ideas I read it as an implication that Grim's opinion which he is entitled to have and voice didn't matter.

It's obvious that admins CAN and WILL do what they think is best for their servers and that is their prerogative nobody is disputing that.  

That ain't my problem, I like a certain type of server, and am only willing to invest my time and effort in ones that are to my liking. Others are free to expend effort investing in server that are to their liking. I believe that those that promt servers more want people to play on them more than others, thus they spend the extra effort. They will do what they feel will draw more players. Right now that seems to be OOB servers. Someone please but up a less restrictive server and promt it and we will see.

That's fine you are entitled and to your own opinion and interests.  I certainly won't laugh at you for it like it's some kinda joke.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I have my opinion and you have yours Kroma i accept that its of course something we are both entitled to. On a serious note this thread is getting perhaps a bit too heated...

I wouldn't take a Gorn wearing a tutu too seriously Grim......thats just the way he expresses himself 

I don't think he has any intention of making this a "heated" discussion.  I might not always agree with him, but I know he says what he does not to antagonize but to try to improve the game according to his perceptions, same as I do. 

I salute him for all the time and effort he has put in no matter if I agree or disagree with the results.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I don't think your reading Grim's true intent.  Why do you think his concerns are funny?  He is concerned about a dwindling playerbase and is making a statement about trying not to piss people off which COULD POSSIBLY dwindle it further whether intentional or not.  Also I didn't read anything as a condemnation of new ideas I read it as an implication that Grim's opinion which he is entitled to have and voice didn't matter.

It's obvious that admins CAN and WILL do what they think is best for their servers and that is their prerogative nobody is disputing that.   

That's fine you are entitled and to your own opinion and interests.  I certainly won't laugh at you for it like it's some kinda joke.

You know Bach I am beginning to wonder if you even bother reading my posts. I have already told you several times that neither DH or I were laughing at Grims idea. We were laughing at the funny little comment he made about how we should be trying not to piss people off. DH and I find that funny because it is impossible not to piss someone off as we have learned through experience. Nothing sinister was meant by it. You continue to read more into it even though I have repeatably corrected you on your mispreception of our mirth, for reasons only you know. If you can't except my explianation then that is your problem, but the fact remains no one ever laughed at Grims opinion, we just don't agree with it and therefore aren't going to waste our free time with it.

You are right that we feel his opinion shouldn't have to matter to us though. But then we also agree that our opinions shouldn't have to matter to you. It is a free dynaverse, make your own brands of fun.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I have my opinion and you have yours Kroma i accept that its of course something we are both entitled to. On a serious note this thread is getting perhaps a bit too heated...

I wouldn't take a Gorn wearing a tutu too seriously Grim......thats just the way he expresses himself 

I don't think he has any intention of making this a "heated" discussion.  I might not always agree with him, but I know he says what he does not to antagonize but to try to improve the game according to his perceptions, same as I do. 

I salute him for all the time and effort he has put in no matter if I agree or disagree with the results.

LOL...heated?  LOL....If anyone got heated it is Grim and Bach for us not taking their opinions as truth. I have simply been saying, if you have a better idea present it. If I like it I will adopt it and lobby for it, if I don't like it I reserve the right to ignore it. I have also said I support your efforts to take your own ideas and make them reality with your own efforts, and have offerred suggestions and web services to help make that a reality. Yet some how this isn't enough, appearently I must adopt their brand of fun and invest my all my efforts for theirs.

[likkerpig]

Kroma is just a little cranky... 'tis the season of "brotherly love" and his favorite squeeze hasn't been around. But just in time, he's back, just for Kroma.... Dr Feelgood!

[FPF-Bach]

LOL...heated?  LOL....If anyone got heated it is Grim and Bach for us not taking their opinions as truth. I have simply been saying, if you have a better idea present it. If I like it I will adopt it and lobby for it, if I don't like it I reserve the right to ignore it. I have also said I support your efforts to take your own ideas and make them reality with your own efforts, and have offerred suggestions and web services to help make that a reality. Yet some how this isn't enough, appearently I must adopt their brand of fun and invest my all my efforts for theirs.

Nah not heated at all nor do I think Grim was either.  Kroma you live for these forum "discussions" so I doubt you were getting heated just having fun trying to heat everyone else up.

 I just typed a big retort to your last message but then got the "more posts have been made blah blah blah" comment before actually posting it and didn't hit post before I viewed them.  I will attempt to mimic what I was going to post tommorow sometime if I get around to it.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Nah not heated at all nor do I think Grim was either.  Kroma you live for these forum "discussions" so I doubt you were getting heated just having fun trying to heat everyone else up.

I ain't trying to heat you guys up, I am trying to fire you up to get together and produce you own brand of fun. I feel diversity is good for the game, NOTr conformity.  IDIC people.