Topic: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)  (Read 13762 times)

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Offline Firehawk

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2004, 10:58:15 am »
Yeah but that argument goes both ways also.  The return fire is not cracking my shield either and don't give me the "I am moving faster so it is I who should engage" argument, as long as I am firing I am engaging.  I don't have a problem with people castling but don't expect me to play your game and charge right in to get blasted.  If you castle then I am going to plink at you at range 10-20(even if it has no chance of penetrating your shield at that range) until you get bored and speed up or make a mistake and give me an opening and if that takes 3 hours then so be it.  You know where the border is also.

Here is a situation that I encounterd on gw2.  I am in a L-CWLP vs a H-PAL.  The paladin is more than capable of destroying  me without having to castle but the pilot chooses to do so anyway.  He is going speed three with full overloads doesn't fire a shot at me because I am not stupid enough to charge into overloaded range.  I am making range 10 passes firing my disruptors and phasers but he never returns fire because I am out of overloaded range so since he in not firing he should concede and leave because he refuses to engage, but he accuses me of wasting his time even though he never fired a shot or launched his fighters.  After about 30 min of this he finally got pissed enough that he sped up and did battle.  He did eventually kill me but I made him do it on my terms not his.  Only a stupid commander plays to the enemies strenghs.

The H-PAL is a perfect example of a ship that has no choice BUT to castle. The thing simply cannot move with weapons armed.

I have nothing against sabre dancing. It's a tactic, just like castling. At range 10 you might have a chance of success even. If you are doing damage, great. If you are not, you're wasting someone's time.

My biggest issue is with someone in a smaller ship who chooses to tie up a dreadnought by staying at range 30 and plinking away. That is NOT a valid tactic, as he has no hopes of winning.

If you can't break the castle, get off the map. With a dreadnought vs a war cruiser, what do you expect?

"Waiting out the castle" is simply a fancy way of saying "refusing to engage".
 

Should a firgate stay at range 30 plinking away at a castling DN? No, but then what the hell is the DN castling for against a FF anyway.  If I am in a ship that I think has a chance against a DN when it is not castling then I will stay and "wait out the castle"  If you don't like it tough you know where the border is.  Waiting out the castle is as valid a tatic as castling is.  What I hate is people that castle with overloads then get mad at you when you don't charge right in and let them blast you with them.  If you castle against me then be prepared for a very long drawn out battle because I will not withdraw until you have done serious damage to me.

As for your example that the Paladin cannot move very fast with its weapons charged, overloaded you are right but standard loads it can move in can move at speed 22 with all weapons charged, speed 13 charging everything( faster if you move your phaser slider down), 18 charging just heavies, 22 charging just HB.   
« Last Edit: December 19, 2004, 11:08:58 am by Firehawk »
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Offline KBF-Angel Slayer

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2004, 11:01:03 am »
I've only played a couple of times online, but I will state this much:  This is a game of tactics, part of that is to beat your opponent in the mental part of combat, and make him come out of his fight plan and meet you on his.  If they want to just have a slugfest, go buy a FPS.
   This is a game where you not only have to blast your enemy, you have to outwit, outthink, and out wait them.  If you can't, you could be in for a rough battle.


NPR is a lot like NASCAR.  Two hundred miles an hour in a circle, and you end up right back where you started with nothing but lost time for the effort.


Offline Villa64

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2004, 11:07:08 am »
Wow this topic is raised from the dead!  It's like a bad sequel... You thought that cutting off Jasons head five times before was permanent, but here he is again, with the same plotline.

Same thing as every other time.  Until you have a definable standard for 'delaying tactics', then its the "spirit of the law" pilots vs the "letter of the law" pilots on this issue.  

"Hey you're going too fast, you are delaying"
"Hey you're going too slow, you are delaying"

I havent played SFC3, but it sound like a shot clock is a good idea.  Probably wouldnt work where the guy was truly determined to delay, but might cut another chunk of delayers out of the system.  

Another might be a change to the victory system.  If neither score any internal damage, and one disengages, match is considered a "draw", no PP's, no change in hex value status.

Another aspect to this is that there is a bigger picture in Dyna.  When you disengage, you lost the point on the hex.  But if you have a nice ship, you might want to get on with life so you can keep reducing the hex.  My point here is that a small guy might be doing alot of good just by tieing up the bigger ship who would otherwise be winning other matches.  As a big ship pilot, "cutting bait" might be a better idea than to stay around longer.

Also, Dyna allows you to go buy another ship.  If you have an enemy in your sector who is delaying, you might want to deploy a ship there that can better take care of that threat.  It's something that you can do actively to counter this tactic, under the current rules.

Villa

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2004, 11:20:26 am »
I love when my oponent castles, they usually wind up dead.

If you are flying a specialty ship that has trouble breaking castles (Example, a droner or a fast cruiser) and your race's line/command cruiser can break castles, you've got nothing to bitch about.  Can't whine when you'r pony's one trick isn't the trick that's needed.

If you are in a Frigate and you're fighting a castling DN, get a reality check and stop waisting the DN's time. 

At the same time, a C7 Pilot has no obligation to close to range 8 on a Caslting BCF. 
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2004, 11:25:51 am »

I couldn't disagre with you more I can fly between range 15 and 20 and fire dizzy at you all day and I'm still engaging. Tell me one good reason I should have to fight the way you want.

Gotta agree with Sears.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2004, 12:09:13 pm »
I can see both sides of the arguement myself.  Perhaps a way to settle it might be on the basis of the mission selected.  In some cases this might work.

For example in a Convoy escort/ Convoy raid the conditions of victory are set by the game, I don't think disengagement rules should apply to a raider that fulfills the missions victory requirement even if he leaves the map after doing so. 

Now take a shipyard assault.  The burden here would be on the ship running fast.  It would only be a matter of time before reinforcements arrived so if he was the attacker he would have to finish his mission quickly.  If he was the defender, he would have an obligation to protect the shipyard rather than flying around all the edges of the map.

Now conversely, in a mission such as a scan recovery the slower ship might have to pick up speed, otherwise the fast ship would simply run by and scan the data, and depart or if the fast ship was the defender he would be in his space and thus calling up reinforcements.

My point being, the nature of the missions might really be the key to determining who needs to change their tactics rather than preceptions about who is delaying the action.  I think most people are divided on this issue along the lines of the races they usually fly (with some exceptions) because each race has its strengtht and weaknessess. 

The Hydrans and Lyran likely the two most polar examples, it is rare that you see a Hydran fly over 15 and rare to see a Lyran fly under 20 (unless its Hexx and he has been in the mission over a minute  ;))  To call either one right or wrong in their approach seems silly to me, why not let the missions determine it, would give an additional advantage to a race defending their territory as they would have more control over their choice of missions in homespace.  As long as the missions offered were relatively balance for frequency of occurance I would see no problem with this.

I think this issue has reached a new level of importance with the advent of special disengagement rules.  Before no one minded losing a mission vs a starcastler so much as they could re-enter the hex.  I think of this as simply doing and end run against a static defender.  The defender castles and the attacker simply flies off the map and goes around him to hit the target or another target in that sector.  Now with the disengagement rule you get bumped for an extended period of time so more careful thought is needed regarding this issue.

Offline Villa64

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2004, 12:48:57 pm »
Oooooh.  Roger.  Disengagement rules. 

So if you get bored and leave, you get a self enforced hex ban for 20 turns (or how ever many).

Hmm.  I bet there is a logical median here somewhere.

Villa
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762_XC

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2004, 02:02:16 pm »
Firehawk, what happens when my DN comes out of the castle to chase your FF or CW or whatever, and you simply speed up and run away? At what point do you acknowledge that you're wasting my time and get off the map like you're supposed to?

Offline KAT J'inn

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2004, 02:22:48 pm »
Is this really that big a deal?

Besides.  We have to have stuff to fight and bitch and flame about during a campaign.  It is war afterall.  Who wants a poliet war? It's boring . . .


Klingon:  May I dizzy your arse now sir?

Federation:  Why, yes, please be my guest.   Finger Sandwich while you charge your overloads?

Klingon:  Why yes thank you. 

Federation:  If it's not too much bother I'd like to fire photons at you soon as well.

Klingon:  But of coruse.   Shall I drop my shields for you?

Federation: WHy thank you. But lets keep it challanging old sport.

Klingon:  Is this chipolte mayo on these sandwichs?

Federation:  Why yes it is.  Tea?

Klingon: Yes, thank you.

Federation: Shall we both T-Bomb Hexx now?

Klingon: Capital idea!

BORING!!!!

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2004, 02:35:00 pm »
I got an idea, if your oponent castles, you're allowed to call him a twat!   ;D


Problem solved.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Firehawk

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2004, 03:05:43 pm »
Firehawk, what happens when my DN comes out of the castle to chase your FF or CW or whatever, and you simply speed up and run away? At what point do you acknowledge that you're wasting my time and get off the map like you're supposed to?

First I wouldn't face a DN in a FF.  If the ship I am flying has no chance of defeating the ship when it is not castling then I would withdraw right after I drafted you and saw what you had.  If I thought that the ship I had stood a chance of winning then I would stay and try to draw you out of the castle.  If you sped up then I wouldn't run away.  I would do what I do with every opponent and try to maneuver myself into a position of strengh.  In the example of the L-CWLP vs H-Pal that I used that would be using the L-CWLP's better turn radius to get on the H-Pal's tail.

I agree that castling is a valid tactic and that some ships have no choice but to do that because of their power curve but I am saying that you can't say that I am wasting your time because I am not charging into your waiting guns.  You win battles by making your opponent play your game not by playing his, sometimes this takes a great deal of patience.  If you are in a ship that you don't think has the ability to play on my terms and don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake then it should be you that withdraws.  In the L-CWLP vs H-Pal example again the the CWLP can't go toe to toe at close range with a castling PAL holding overloads nor can it crack the facing shield at range(holding OL at speed 3 the Pal can put 16.5 points into shield reinforcement), so I have to hope you make a mistake and give me an opening or get bored and speed up in which case you just started playing the match on my terms giving me the advantage.  

Let me say again that I would never waste your time if I didn't think I had a chance of defeating you, but if I am in a ship that I think I can win in I am not going to withdraw just because you start castling and the ship/race I am in can't quickly break a castle.  I am sorry if you don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake or give you an opening.

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Offline Grim

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2004, 03:35:15 pm »
There are people who i've flown against who go full speed around the map for 30 plus mins, i ask if they are going to even attempt to attack they say no you come and chase me.

I'm not going to chase someone at full speed if its going to increase my chances of getting killed in the process.

Like i said previously i have no problem if they are attacking at high speed going in and out of range and firing, but there are examples of people who have no intention of even attempting to attack, if this is the case they should disengage rather than waste time.

Offline Firehawk

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2004, 03:42:08 pm »
There are people who i've flown against who go full speed around the map for 30 plus mins, i ask if they are going to even attempt to attack they say no you come and chase me.

I'm not going to chase someone at full speed if its going to increase my chances of getting killed in the process.

Like i said previously i have no problem if they are attacking at high speed going in and out of range and firing, but there are examples of people who have no intention of even attempting to attack, if this is the case they should disengage rather than waste time.

Yes but if he hasn't fired a shot then I agree that you have the right to tell him to fight or leave.  I was responding to 762's comment about that even though you are firing at me you have no chance of breaking my shield reinforcement so you should withdraw.

Plus this also goes back to my point of forcing your opponent to play on your terms.  You say that you aren't going to speed up because it increases you chances of getting killed.  Well why should he slow down if it increases his chances of getting killed?

Also what about the H-Pal in my fisrt post?  It didn't fire a single shot or launch its fighters at in the first 30 min of the match either because I never came closer than range 10 and he had overloads. 
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2004, 05:01:00 pm »

Maybe he castles.  Maybe he doesn't.  What difference does it make?  Either way the fight is going to take three hours, right?  Right?  Right?

<looks left>

<looks right>

Why are all the non-Gorn laughing?



But seriously, in the situation Hexx describes  I don't see that either captain is under any obligation to leave.  You've both chosen a strategy that is diametric opposite of the other, but you both plan to fight on your terms  Now it becomes a game of patience.  Who has the most patience?  Who is needed elsewhere the most?  Who is willing to alter his strategy a little first?

Being someone who is rather fond of the castle myself, I have to recognize one thing:  the moment I castle, the initiative of the battle is in the other guy's hands.   What happens next is up to him so long as I keep castling.

When the fight or leave rule was made we had people who would fly around at 31 all day and never intend to try and hurt the enemy.  If you castled, they'd withdraw.  (Like Hexx)  If you sped up to chase, they turn and run further away.  (Unlike what Hexx is describing.)  I haven't seen that happen in a long, long time.

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762_XC

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2004, 05:47:14 pm »
Firehawk, what happens when my DN comes out of the castle to chase your FF or CW or whatever, and you simply speed up and run away? At what point do you acknowledge that you're wasting my time and get off the map like you're supposed to?

First I wouldn't face a DN in a FF.  If the ship I am flying has no chance of defeating the ship when it is not castling then I would withdraw right after I drafted you and saw what you had.  If I thought that the ship I had stood a chance of winning then I would stay and try to draw you out of the castle.  If you sped up then I wouldn't run away.  I would do what I do with every opponent and try to maneuver myself into a position of strengh.  In the example of the L-CWLP vs H-Pal that I used that would be using the L-CWLP's better turn radius to get on the H-Pal's tail.

I agree that castling is a valid tactic and that some ships have no choice but to do that because of their power curve but I am saying that you can't say that I am wasting your time because I am not charging into your waiting guns.  You win battles by making your opponent play your game not by playing his, sometimes this takes a great deal of patience.  If you are in a ship that you don't think has the ability to play on my terms and don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake then it should be you that withdraws.  In the L-CWLP vs H-Pal example again the the CWLP can't go toe to toe at close range with a castling PAL holding overloads nor can it crack the facing shield at range(holding OL at speed 3 the Pal can put 16.5 points into shield reinforcement), so I have to hope you make a mistake and give me an opening or get bored and speed up in which case you just started playing the match on my terms giving me the advantage.  

Let me say again that I would never waste your time if I didn't think I had a chance of defeating you, but if I am in a ship that I think I can win in I am not going to withdraw just because you start castling and the ship/race I am in can't quickly break a castle.  I am sorry if you don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake or give you an opening.



Then I think we agree more than we disagree. Unfortunately, like Grim says there are those who WILL run away and claim that I am under some obligation to chase them off the map. As a matter of fact my very last battle of GW4 went down like that.

As long as whatever tactic you are using has some chance of hurting me, then I have no problem with it. I would certainly never insult your intelligence by asking you to come into overload range.

Offline Hexx

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2004, 05:55:48 pm »
Well that discussion maneged to give me something to read for  , well almost a day.

Hmm what to ask next...
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Offline Firehawk

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2004, 06:06:46 pm »
Firehawk, what happens when my DN comes out of the castle to chase your FF or CW or whatever, and you simply speed up and run away? At what point do you acknowledge that you're wasting my time and get off the map like you're supposed to?

First I wouldn't face a DN in a FF.  If the ship I am flying has no chance of defeating the ship when it is not castling then I would withdraw right after I drafted you and saw what you had.  If I thought that the ship I had stood a chance of winning then I would stay and try to draw you out of the castle.  If you sped up then I wouldn't run away.  I would do what I do with every opponent and try to maneuver myself into a position of strengh.  In the example of the L-CWLP vs H-Pal that I used that would be using the L-CWLP's better turn radius to get on the H-Pal's tail.

I agree that castling is a valid tactic and that some ships have no choice but to do that because of their power curve but I am saying that you can't say that I am wasting your time because I am not charging into your waiting guns.  You win battles by making your opponent play your game not by playing his, sometimes this takes a great deal of patience.  If you are in a ship that you don't think has the ability to play on my terms and don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake then it should be you that withdraws.  In the L-CWLP vs H-Pal example again the the CWLP can't go toe to toe at close range with a castling PAL holding overloads nor can it crack the facing shield at range(holding OL at speed 3 the Pal can put 16.5 points into shield reinforcement), so I have to hope you make a mistake and give me an opening or get bored and speed up in which case you just started playing the match on my terms giving me the advantage.  

Let me say again that I would never waste your time if I didn't think I had a chance of defeating you, but if I am in a ship that I think I can win in I am not going to withdraw just because you start castling and the ship/race I am in can't quickly break a castle.  I am sorry if you don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake or give you an opening.



Then I think we agree more than we disagree. Unfortunately, like Grim says there are those who WILL run away and claim that I am under some obligation to chase them off the map. As a matter of fact my very last battle of GW4 went down like that.

As long as whatever tactic you are using has some chance of hurting me, then I have no problem with it. I would certainly never insult your intelligence by asking you to come into overload range.

Playing mainly romulan I have experienced those that only want to run around at range 40+ doing speed 30 and never turn and engage also.

And that couldn't have been your very last battle of GW4.  Your very last battle of GW4 was me(KCRF) and Dizzy(KRCS) vs you(CVAR), Jinn(HDW something) and Komodo(CLC) resluting in the death of the CLC and both me and dizzy.  :)
Firehawk of the Romulan SPQR

Offline SSCF-LeRoy

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2004, 06:15:05 pm »
Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.


Now why does this strike me as so familiar...?





<snicker> ;D


Offline Hexx

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2004, 06:19:39 pm »
LOL yep Im guessing you were one of them.
- but at least you had a sense of humor about it  ;D
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2004, 06:23:54 pm »
funny how the  "<Snicker>" came out in LeRoy's post concerning a match where he was Flying Kzin.  Definately has potential,  I think he needs to come over to the Furry side...... ;D

Look at it this way LeRoy, we never paint our clubhouse, kinda pointless as the spraying would peel any paint off the walls....... ;)