Topic: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)

[Hexx]

Castling
Some like it, some hate it.
Some of us are simply StarCastling twats

In any event (without flames... although we havent had any kinda flamewar in like... forever)

Most servers have an interesting little rule that says you must engage, you can't fly around the map wasting the other guys time.
Basis of the rule is you must fight (as I understand it)

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.
A few laughed it off, one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

I'm not trying to accuse anyone or say they were wrong and I was right, but if (read "when") this situation occurse again, who's in the right? The guy who refuse to fight a castler, or the guy that flies at spd 3 -8 pouring everything he can into shileds etc?

[Grim]

I think Castling is a valid tactic, or creeping i.e. going slow, but what i dont think valid is say going speed 31 around the map not even engaging thats the problem. With a lot of Castlers you will see them firing at the target say with Hellbores of Photons at range, so there is a difference between engaging or not.

But its like a no win discussion point both can be seen as fair/unfair by different people.

In terms of rules all i've heard from experience e.g.  on TS is you have to engage or leave.

[Hexx]

Exactly, but who has to engage or leave?
The guy flying at 31 or the guy doing 3?

[Grim]

Like i said its a hard issue to discuss as there is allways going to be a difference in opinion on who should engage or leave. Both sides involved will feel that ther opposition should do this and do that, the person flying 31 will get annoyed and tell the castler to engage and vice versa. A no win situation it seems.

In terms of my own personal opinion the one going 31 flying around not even attempting to fire should either engage or leave.

In terms of previous server rules i have no idea what the precedent is, but i think its likely to be more orientated to the person going speed 31 and not even attempting to engage.

[FPF-DieHard]

This is going to get good . . . .   

[Hexx]

nah it's going to stay level and boring 

Would it be fair to say the drafting player is the one who has to be attacked?
ie if the drafter castles then the draftee has to attack him, conversely if the drafter flies around at spd 20 you can't castle
(well unless you can castel at spd 20) Or should the decision be in the draftee's favour?

I can see arguments for both sides, my personal preference of course based on my flying style (if you can call it a style)
is that the ships should engage at speed, the opposite of Grims.

[Grim]

I dont think you can have a set rule on who must engage who etc as each situation is different due to the races involved, ships involved in the battle etc.

I also can see both sides to the argument, i have no problem with high speed battles, only issue i have is players who go full speed fly around the map for 30 or so mins, have no intention of even trying to fight and won't disengage.

[FPF-DieHard]

This way lies madness . . .

[Green]

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.

Makes sense to me.

A few laughed it off, one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

Sounds like those one or two were in error.

[762_XC]

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.

Does this really even need to be asked? How is that NOT wasting someone's time? This is the very reason the Fight or Leave rule is in place.

one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

Were you flying away from them, or towards them?

I'm not trying to accuse anyone or say they were wrong and I was right, but if (read "when") this situation occurse again, who's in the right? The guy who refuse to fight a castler, or the guy that flies at spd 3 -8 pouring everything he can into shileds etc?

If you refuse to fight a castler, that is your right. Wasting his time is not.

Everyone knows where the border is.

[Hexx]

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.

Does this really even need to be asked? How is that NOT wasting someone's time? This is the very reason the Fight or Leave rule is in place.

Of course it needs to be asked, by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.
I'm asking the question of who is the guy that's should be leaving?

one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

Were you flying away from them, or towards them?

Flying circles around them at a distance of 30 or so , sometimes more, sometimes less
Really range is irrelavant. I think I actually wrote in the part above that I was doing 31, I actually kept it in the high 20's as I realize that not all ships can fly 31.

I'm not trying to accuse anyone or say they were wrong and I was right, but if (read "when") this situation occurse again, who's in the right? The guy who refuse to fight a castler, or the guy that flies at spd 3 -8 pouring everything he can into shileds etc?

If you refuse to fight a castler, that is your right. Wasting his time is not.

So you are arguing if someone (castler) wants to fly at speed 3 , and I want to fly at speed 20+ I MUST
engage the guy castling? Why doesn't he have to speed up and catch me?

Everyone knows where the border is.

I agree. I'm simply asking who should have to fly across it first?

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Ok. Try this one. GW4. I'm flying a CADR. Klink asks me if I'm going to taco after my missiles empty out. I say that depends on what shape he and I are in when I run out. Let's just say he indicates he is not very happy with that, at which point I point out for him to notice that he has already suffered  internals with two shields quite weak and he hasn't broken any of mine. Why should someone who is at that moment on the losing end of a battle, be acting like I'm wasting his time? Add eight phaser 1s and his modest internals, this suggests to me that I am making the effort to fight and he should worry about that.

It strikes me that this person feels that anyone who might run when they realise they can no longer win and don't want to lose their ship, is in violation. Interpretations? This one seems pretty warped.

[762_XC]

It's very simple Hexx.

The faster ship has the initiative. If you don't like being the faster ship, SLOW DOWN.

Why should I have to chase you? Fight or leave.

[762_XC]

Ok. Try this one. GW4. I'm flying a CADR. Klink asks me if I'm going to taco after my missiles empty out. I say that depends on what shape he and I are in when I run out. Let's just say he indicates he is not very happy with that, at which point I point out for him to notice that he has already suffered  internals with two shields quite weak and he hasn't broken any of mine. Why should someone who is at that moment on the losing end of a battle, be acting like I'm wasting his time? Add eight phaser 1s and his modest internals, this suggests to me that I am making the effort to fight and he should worry about that.

It strikes me that this person feels that anyone who might run when they realise they can no longer win and don't want to lose their ship, is in violation. Interpretations? This one seems pretty warped.

If you're getting internals, Tobin, you have every right to stay in the match and see what happens.

If someone stays at long range and won't even dent your reinforcement, then it's time to leave.

[Corbomite]

Why doesn't he have to speed up and catch me?

Because he's not an idiot? They are castling for a reason and leaving the castle will get them killed.

[Bonk]

I don't think anybodys tactics should be limited in any way by difficult to remember rules. (Also, players should be considerate and not waste others time needlessly - which should really be the gist of the rule...)

If I can down a sheild on one pass and then plink away at a castler to a slow but steady win over 45 minutes I should be allowed to do that, part of the fun of the game...

It is usually obvious when someone is wasting your time. But remember some valid offensive tactics in SFB/SFC can take a very long time.

<looks around...>

<drops bomb...>

Mission Timers!

<runs away...> hehe...

[FPF-Wanderer]

...by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.

I completely disagree.  By castling, your opponent is forcing you to either engage and break his castle or leave.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If you don't have the moxie to break the castle, then you should leave.  That's the way I have always interpreted it.

[Grim]

...by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.

I completely disagree.  By castling, your opponent is forcing you to either engage and break his castle or leave.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If you don't have the moxie to break the castle, then you should leave.  That's the way I have always interpreted it.

Well said Wanderer

Its like corbo said above, in some ships aginst some races you have to castle to survive,. Example i can think of is facing some of the droners, not all ships can chase at relatively high speed a droner and trying so may be suicide.

[Hexx]

Hmmm opinionated bunch aren't you all.
Unfortunately you're wrong but..

One of the fights (iirc- if not just use it as an example) Mirak CCH vs Klink FDW
In any turning engagment (ie Spd 20+) Klingon has hte advantage.
Klingon probably has the advantage in a speed 10-15 duel.
When the Mirak flies spd 1-3 he can throw enoguh power to reinforcement
that it's tough to get through.
CCH has enough PD that a drone wave wont break the castle.
FDW doens't really have enough Dizzies to break it on its own.
(and while 2 dizzies are shooting at the Mirak, 4 are shooting back)

Now without arguing "pilot A should do this, Pilot B should do this"
Explain why the fight should be fought on terms where it's to the Miraks advantage.
In fact forget the two ships mentioned above.
Klingon ship doesn't really have the power to crack a castle, Mirak ship will lose in a turning battle.

You are  trying to claim that the Klingon ship in this case must disengage?

-I should point out btw that I'm not arguing he Mirak should have to speed up or disengage, I'm more concerned with the comments mentioned here
(and a couple fo times on the server) that I was the one wasting time.

-I guess the simplst way to put the question is -if he's going to castle, and I want to maintain speed, is it "legal" to simply keep each
other in there until one of us gets bored and leaves?

[Hexx]

...by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.

I completely disagree.  By castling, your opponent is forcing you to either engage and break his castle or leave.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If you don't have the moxie to break the castle, then you should leave.  That's the way I have always interpreted it.

By maintaining speed I'm forcing my opponent to either speed up and engage or leave.
It is very simple, if he can't maintain speed and fight he should leave.