Topic: OK Rules interpretation needed (well it might be)

[Hexx]

Castling
Some like it, some hate it.
Some of us are simply StarCastling twats

In any event (without flames... although we havent had any kinda flamewar in like... forever)

Most servers have an interesting little rule that says you must engage, you can't fly around the map wasting the other guys time.
Basis of the rule is you must fight (as I understand it)

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.
A few laughed it off, one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

I'm not trying to accuse anyone or say they were wrong and I was right, but if (read "when") this situation occurse again, who's in the right? The guy who refuse to fight a castler, or the guy that flies at spd 3 -8 pouring everything he can into shileds etc?

[Grim]

I think Castling is a valid tactic, or creeping i.e. going slow, but what i dont think valid is say going speed 31 around the map not even engaging thats the problem. With a lot of Castlers you will see them firing at the target say with Hellbores of Photons at range, so there is a difference between engaging or not.

But its like a no win discussion point both can be seen as fair/unfair by different people.

In terms of rules all i've heard from experience e.g.  on TS is you have to engage or leave.

[Hexx]

Exactly, but who has to engage or leave?
The guy flying at 31 or the guy doing 3?

[Grim]

Like i said its a hard issue to discuss as there is allways going to be a difference in opinion on who should engage or leave. Both sides involved will feel that ther opposition should do this and do that, the person flying 31 will get annoyed and tell the castler to engage and vice versa. A no win situation it seems.

In terms of my own personal opinion the one going 31 flying around not even attempting to fire should either engage or leave.

In terms of previous server rules i have no idea what the precedent is, but i think its likely to be more orientated to the person going speed 31 and not even attempting to engage.

[FPF-DieHard]

This is going to get good . . . .   

[Hexx]

nah it's going to stay level and boring 

Would it be fair to say the drafting player is the one who has to be attacked?
ie if the drafter castles then the draftee has to attack him, conversely if the drafter flies around at spd 20 you can't castle
(well unless you can castel at spd 20) Or should the decision be in the draftee's favour?

I can see arguments for both sides, my personal preference of course based on my flying style (if you can call it a style)
is that the ships should engage at speed, the opposite of Grims.

[Grim]

I dont think you can have a set rule on who must engage who etc as each situation is different due to the races involved, ships involved in the battle etc.

I also can see both sides to the argument, i have no problem with high speed battles, only issue i have is players who go full speed fly around the map for 30 or so mins, have no intention of even trying to fight and won't disengage.

[FPF-DieHard]

This way lies madness . . .

[Green]

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.

Makes sense to me.

A few laughed it off, one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

Sounds like those one or two were in error.

[762_XC]

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.

Does this really even need to be asked? How is that NOT wasting someone's time? This is the very reason the Fight or Leave rule is in place.

one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

Were you flying away from them, or towards them?

I'm not trying to accuse anyone or say they were wrong and I was right, but if (read "when") this situation occurse again, who's in the right? The guy who refuse to fight a castler, or the guy that flies at spd 3 -8 pouring everything he can into shileds etc?

If you refuse to fight a castler, that is your right. Wasting his time is not.

Everyone knows where the border is.

[Hexx]

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.

Does this really even need to be asked? How is that NOT wasting someone's time? This is the very reason the Fight or Leave rule is in place.

Of course it needs to be asked, by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.
I'm asking the question of who is the guy that's should be leaving?

one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

Were you flying away from them, or towards them?

Flying circles around them at a distance of 30 or so , sometimes more, sometimes less
Really range is irrelavant. I think I actually wrote in the part above that I was doing 31, I actually kept it in the high 20's as I realize that not all ships can fly 31.

I'm not trying to accuse anyone or say they were wrong and I was right, but if (read "when") this situation occurse again, who's in the right? The guy who refuse to fight a castler, or the guy that flies at spd 3 -8 pouring everything he can into shileds etc?

If you refuse to fight a castler, that is your right. Wasting his time is not.

So you are arguing if someone (castler) wants to fly at speed 3 , and I want to fly at speed 20+ I MUST
engage the guy castling? Why doesn't he have to speed up and catch me?

Everyone knows where the border is.

I agree. I'm simply asking who should have to fly across it first?

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Ok. Try this one. GW4. I'm flying a CADR. Klink asks me if I'm going to taco after my missiles empty out. I say that depends on what shape he and I are in when I run out. Let's just say he indicates he is not very happy with that, at which point I point out for him to notice that he has already suffered  internals with two shields quite weak and he hasn't broken any of mine. Why should someone who is at that moment on the losing end of a battle, be acting like I'm wasting his time? Add eight phaser 1s and his modest internals, this suggests to me that I am making the effort to fight and he should worry about that.

It strikes me that this person feels that anyone who might run when they realise they can no longer win and don't want to lose their ship, is in violation. Interpretations? This one seems pretty warped.

[762_XC]

It's very simple Hexx.

The faster ship has the initiative. If you don't like being the faster ship, SLOW DOWN.

Why should I have to chase you? Fight or leave.

[762_XC]

Ok. Try this one. GW4. I'm flying a CADR. Klink asks me if I'm going to taco after my missiles empty out. I say that depends on what shape he and I are in when I run out. Let's just say he indicates he is not very happy with that, at which point I point out for him to notice that he has already suffered  internals with two shields quite weak and he hasn't broken any of mine. Why should someone who is at that moment on the losing end of a battle, be acting like I'm wasting his time? Add eight phaser 1s and his modest internals, this suggests to me that I am making the effort to fight and he should worry about that.

It strikes me that this person feels that anyone who might run when they realise they can no longer win and don't want to lose their ship, is in violation. Interpretations? This one seems pretty warped.

If you're getting internals, Tobin, you have every right to stay in the match and see what happens.

If someone stays at long range and won't even dent your reinforcement, then it's time to leave.

[Corbomite]

Why doesn't he have to speed up and catch me?

Because he's not an idiot? They are castling for a reason and leaving the castle will get them killed.

[Bonk]

I don't think anybodys tactics should be limited in any way by difficult to remember rules. (Also, players should be considerate and not waste others time needlessly - which should really be the gist of the rule...)

If I can down a sheild on one pass and then plink away at a castler to a slow but steady win over 45 minutes I should be allowed to do that, part of the fun of the game...

It is usually obvious when someone is wasting your time. But remember some valid offensive tactics in SFB/SFC can take a very long time.

<looks around...>

<drops bomb...>

Mission Timers!

<runs away...> hehe...

[FPF-Wanderer]

...by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.

I completely disagree.  By castling, your opponent is forcing you to either engage and break his castle or leave.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If you don't have the moxie to break the castle, then you should leave.  That's the way I have always interpreted it.

[Grim]

...by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.

I completely disagree.  By castling, your opponent is forcing you to either engage and break his castle or leave.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If you don't have the moxie to break the castle, then you should leave.  That's the way I have always interpreted it.

Well said Wanderer

Its like corbo said above, in some ships aginst some races you have to castle to survive,. Example i can think of is facing some of the droners, not all ships can chase at relatively high speed a droner and trying so may be suicide.

[Hexx]

Hmmm opinionated bunch aren't you all.
Unfortunately you're wrong but..

One of the fights (iirc- if not just use it as an example) Mirak CCH vs Klink FDW
In any turning engagment (ie Spd 20+) Klingon has hte advantage.
Klingon probably has the advantage in a speed 10-15 duel.
When the Mirak flies spd 1-3 he can throw enoguh power to reinforcement
that it's tough to get through.
CCH has enough PD that a drone wave wont break the castle.
FDW doens't really have enough Dizzies to break it on its own.
(and while 2 dizzies are shooting at the Mirak, 4 are shooting back)

Now without arguing "pilot A should do this, Pilot B should do this"
Explain why the fight should be fought on terms where it's to the Miraks advantage.
In fact forget the two ships mentioned above.
Klingon ship doesn't really have the power to crack a castle, Mirak ship will lose in a turning battle.

You are  trying to claim that the Klingon ship in this case must disengage?

-I should point out btw that I'm not arguing he Mirak should have to speed up or disengage, I'm more concerned with the comments mentioned here
(and a couple fo times on the server) that I was the one wasting time.

-I guess the simplst way to put the question is -if he's going to castle, and I want to maintain speed, is it "legal" to simply keep each
other in there until one of us gets bored and leaves?

[Hexx]

...by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.

I completely disagree.  By castling, your opponent is forcing you to either engage and break his castle or leave.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If you don't have the moxie to break the castle, then you should leave.  That's the way I have always interpreted it.

By maintaining speed I'm forcing my opponent to either speed up and engage or leave.
It is very simple, if he can't maintain speed and fight he should leave.

[Corbomite]

It is very simple, if he can't maintain speed and fight he should leave.

So your saying that if a ship is too damaged to go fast and fight that they should have the common decency to get off the map and save you the trouble of killing them?

[Dizzy]

Let's all hold hexx down and tickle him till he pees in his pants...

[Hexx]

It is very simple, if he can't maintain speed and fight he should leave.

So your saying that if a ship is too damaged to go fast and fight that they should have the common decency to get off the map and save you the trouble of killing them?

OK that's kinda an odd response but...

Actually I'd prefer it if they SD.
That way I waste as little as time as possible.

If the ship is too damaged to go fast and fight chances are he can't castle either.
Again (and I'm trying to ask this with small, one syllable words here)
Why is it a valid tactic to fly so slow and pump so much shield reinforcement into shields that a ship can't realy crack it, but not OK to put that energy into speed
and make the other guy fight your battle?

Again- I'm not saying one or the other has to leave, I'm asking if it's a legitimate tactic. And NOT wasting the other guys time.

Grim seems to say "No"- but no real reason given (and admits it's personal choice)
T00l seems to say "No", no actual reason given <- Im really starting to feel he doesn't like me, probably why he keeps blowing me up all the time.
I *think* Corbo is arguing No, because the ship might lose if it flies fast.
Wanderer seems to be arguing "No" because if you can't break a castle you should leave.
Green- I'm putting in the Yes column, just because I know he feels bad about killing me on WCH


Anyways -still looking for a decent, valid, interesting reason why it's considered OK to fly slow and make them come to you, but ridiculous
to ask someone to speed up and fight you.

[Corbomite]

Why is it a valid tactic to fly so slow and pump so much shield reinforcement into shields that a ship can't realy crack it, but not OK to put that energy into speed and make the other guy fight your battle?

If I understand your question correctly you answered it yourself. It is about forcing your opponent to fight your battle not his. Why would I want to fly fast and give you a chance to blow down my shields when I can "fly so slow and pump so much shield reinforcement into shields that a ship can't realy crack it" and beat you because you don't know what to do about a good OL overrun opportunity when you see it.

[FPF-DieHard]

...by flying at spd 3-8 and castling, without a chance to catch me, the castler is wasting my time as well.

I completely disagree.  By castling, your opponent is forcing you to either engage and break his castle or leave.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If you don't have the moxie to break the castle, then you should leave.  That's the way I have always interpreted it.

By maintaining speed I'm forcing my opponent to either speed up and engage or leave.
It is very simple, if he can't maintain speed and fight he should leave.

Um, think about that one for a sec.  You may want to re-word it.

[Julin Eurthyr]

I'll ask you a question.

As an ISC pilot, I'm usually in a much stronger positon by starcastling instead of going at speed.

In doing so, I'm setting myself up for a 1/2 hour to hour + battle.  It'll take my PPDs that long to sand down shields at range 20-30.

Meanwhile, you're going to tell me, probably demand of me, to give up my strength in order to attack you in a "timely" manner?

If you're that impatient, why don't you give up your strength in order to force me to engage you on terms more to your liking... ie, castle yourself...

Although someone like my ISC ship will probably enjoy your sudden choice to castle and start pegging you with some plasma...

[Green]

By castling, your opponent is forcing you to either engage and break his castle or leave.

And by maintaining speed, your opponent is forcing you to either speed up and engage or leave.

What is the difference?

[Corbomite]

Well, realistically, if he is sitting there doing nothing and you are flying around out of range (your's and his) doing nothing, you are both hosers  . I will usually pick up speed to close the distance and then recamp when they begin their attack run. Eventually they run out of map and have to choose between me and the line.

[762_XC]

The difference is, Green, that one combatant is facing towards his opponent (i.e. engaging) while one is facing away (i.e. not engaging).

Speed is irrelevant. It's clear who is choosing to engage and who is not.

[el-Karnak]

Now everyone understands why Taldren put in missions timers for SFC3 where on the D3 dyna the mission ends if no shots are fired after 10 minutes. 

[WarSears]

The difference is, Green, that one combatant is facing towards his opponent (i.e. engaging) while one is facing away (i.e. not engaging).

Speed is irrelevant. It's clear who is choosing to engage and who is not.

I couldn't disagre with you more I can fly between range 15 and 20 and fire dizzy at you all day and I'm still engaging. Tell me one good reason I should have to fight the way you want.

[762_XC]

Are you doing damage at that range? If so, good for you, good fight.

If not, get off the map and stop wasting someone's time.

You fight whatever way you want to, as long as you're fighting. The definition of "fighting" in this case is doing damage and having the potential of winning.

If you can't do that get off the board.

Fight or leave. It's that simple.

[Hexx]

Are you doing damage at that range? If so, good for you, good fight.

If not, get off the map and stop wasting someone's time.

You fight whatever way you want to, as long as you're fighting. The definition of "fighting" in this case is doing damage and having the potential of winning.

If you can't do that get off the board.

Fight or leave. It's that simple.

Hmmm
I'll assume that's an convulted way of saying I can circle the castler at range long as I'm popping off a few dizzies.
Cool.

[762_XC]

If you can't even crack a shield then you're not engaging.

The only reason you should be on the map is if you intend to do damage. If you're only there to tie someone up you're breaking the rules.

[Green]

Well, realistically, if he is sitting there doing nothing and you are flying around out of range (your's and his) doing nothing, you are both hosers  . I will usually pick up speed to close the distance and then recamp when they begin their attack run. Eventually they run out of map and have to choose between me and the line.

I agree.

The difference is, Green, that one combatant is facing towards his opponent (i.e. engaging) while one is facing away (i.e. not engaging).

Speed is irrelevant. It's clear who is choosing to engage and who is not.

I don't completely agree.  Only because you have made the assumption that one of them isn't facing - and firing - at their opponent.  If one player is flying a slow castling plasma ship and the other one has hellbores ... the HB player is going to want to keep a nice 15+ range, at speed, and plink away.

[Firehawk]

Yeah but that argument goes both ways also.  The return fire is not cracking my shield either and don't give me the "I am moving faster so it is I who should engage" argument, as long as I am firing I am engaging.  I don't have a problem with people castling but don't expect me to play your game and charge right in to get blasted.  If you castle then I am going to plink at you at range 10-20(even if it has no chance of penetrating your shield at that range) until you get bored and speed up or make a mistake and give me an opening and if that takes 3 hours then so be it.  You know where the border is also.

Here is a situation that I encounterd on gw2.  I am in a L-CWLP vs a H-PAL.  The paladin is more than capable of destroying  me without having to castle but the pilot chooses to do so anyway.  He is going speed three with full overloads doesn't fire a shot at me because I am not stupid enough to charge into overloaded range.  I am making range 10 passes firing my disruptors and phasers but he never returns fire because I am out of overloaded range so since he in not firing he should concede and leave because he refuses to engage, but he accuses me of wasting his time even though he never fired a shot or launched his fighters.  After about 30 min of this he finally got pissed enough that he sped up and did battle.  He did eventually kill me but I made him do it on my terms not his.  Only a stupid commander plays to the enemies strenghs.

[Laflin]

I can see Firehawk's point, especially since he used the Lyrans in his example.  With no real long range heavy weapons or tracking weapons, the Lyrans almost always have to fly running battles.  The same can be said for the Klinks.  Just as I wouldn't expect a plasma or photon ship to engage at high speed, conversely I wouldn't expect a dogfighter to slow down and trade blows in a fight he can't win.  It seems to me that pilot discretion is the biggest factor in leaving or not - if it appears you can't win, is it worth the time to stick around, especially if others are running missions under you?

[madelf]

Castling
Some like it, some hate it.
Some of us are simply StarCastling twats

In any event (without flames... although we havent had any kinda flamewar in like... forever)

Most servers have an interesting little rule that says you must engage, you can't fly around the map wasting the other guys time.
Basis of the rule is you must fight (as I understand it)

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.
A few laughed it off, one or two got kinda upset that *I* was refusing to enage them

I'm not trying to accuse anyone or say they were wrong and I was right, but if (read "when") this situation occurse again, who's in the right? The guy who refuse to fight a castler, or the guy that flies at spd 3 -8 pouring everything he can into shileds etc?

I Love to see a guy castle on me, unless he's in a DN vs my little droner (that's just silly).

[Hexx]

Yeah , but you're kinda weird anyway so..

[762_XC]

Yeah but that argument goes both ways also.  The return fire is not cracking my shield either and don't give me the "I am moving faster so it is I who should engage" argument, as long as I am firing I am engaging.  I don't have a problem with people castling but don't expect me to play your game and charge right in to get blasted.  If you castle then I am going to plink at you at range 10-20(even if it has no chance of penetrating your shield at that range) until you get bored and speed up or make a mistake and give me an opening and if that takes 3 hours then so be it.  You know where the border is also.

Here is a situation that I encounterd on gw2.  I am in a L-CWLP vs a H-PAL.  The paladin is more than capable of destroying  me without having to castle but the pilot chooses to do so anyway.  He is going speed three with full overloads doesn't fire a shot at me because I am not stupid enough to charge into overloaded range.  I am making range 10 passes firing my disruptors and phasers but he never returns fire because I am out of overloaded range so since he in not firing he should concede and leave because he refuses to engage, but he accuses me of wasting his time even though he never fired a shot or launched his fighters.  After about 30 min of this he finally got pissed enough that he sped up and did battle.  He did eventually kill me but I made him do it on my terms not his.  Only a stupid commander plays to the enemies strenghs.

The H-PAL is a perfect example of a ship that has no choice BUT to castle. The thing simply cannot move with weapons armed.

I have nothing against sabre dancing. It's a tactic, just like castling. At range 10 you might have a chance of success even. If you are doing damage, great. If you are not, you're wasting someone's time.

My biggest issue is with someone in a smaller ship who chooses to tie up a dreadnought by staying at range 30 and plinking away. That is NOT a valid tactic, as he has no hopes of winning.

If you can't break the castle, get off the map. With a dreadnought vs a war cruiser, what do you expect?

"Waiting out the castle" is simply a fancy way of saying "refusing to engage".
 

[Firehawk]

Yeah but that argument goes both ways also.  The return fire is not cracking my shield either and don't give me the "I am moving faster so it is I who should engage" argument, as long as I am firing I am engaging.  I don't have a problem with people castling but don't expect me to play your game and charge right in to get blasted.  If you castle then I am going to plink at you at range 10-20(even if it has no chance of penetrating your shield at that range) until you get bored and speed up or make a mistake and give me an opening and if that takes 3 hours then so be it.  You know where the border is also.

Here is a situation that I encounterd on gw2.  I am in a L-CWLP vs a H-PAL.  The paladin is more than capable of destroying  me without having to castle but the pilot chooses to do so anyway.  He is going speed three with full overloads doesn't fire a shot at me because I am not stupid enough to charge into overloaded range.  I am making range 10 passes firing my disruptors and phasers but he never returns fire because I am out of overloaded range so since he in not firing he should concede and leave because he refuses to engage, but he accuses me of wasting his time even though he never fired a shot or launched his fighters.  After about 30 min of this he finally got pissed enough that he sped up and did battle.  He did eventually kill me but I made him do it on my terms not his.  Only a stupid commander plays to the enemies strenghs.

The H-PAL is a perfect example of a ship that has no choice BUT to castle. The thing simply cannot move with weapons armed.

I have nothing against sabre dancing. It's a tactic, just like castling. At range 10 you might have a chance of success even. If you are doing damage, great. If you are not, you're wasting someone's time.

My biggest issue is with someone in a smaller ship who chooses to tie up a dreadnought by staying at range 30 and plinking away. That is NOT a valid tactic, as he has no hopes of winning.

If you can't break the castle, get off the map. With a dreadnought vs a war cruiser, what do you expect?

"Waiting out the castle" is simply a fancy way of saying "refusing to engage".
 

Should a firgate stay at range 30 plinking away at a castling DN? No, but then what the hell is the DN castling for against a FF anyway.  If I am in a ship that I think has a chance against a DN when it is not castling then I will stay and "wait out the castle"  If you don't like it tough you know where the border is.  Waiting out the castle is as valid a tatic as castling is.  What I hate is people that castle with overloads then get mad at you when you don't charge right in and let them blast you with them.  If you castle against me then be prepared for a very long drawn out battle because I will not withdraw until you have done serious damage to me.

As for your example that the Paladin cannot move very fast with its weapons charged, overloaded you are right but standard loads it can move in can move at speed 22 with all weapons charged, speed 13 charging everything( faster if you move your phaser slider down), 18 charging just heavies, 22 charging just HB.   

[KBF-Angel Slayer]

I've only played a couple of times online, but I will state this much:  This is a game of tactics, part of that is to beat your opponent in the mental part of combat, and make him come out of his fight plan and meet you on his.  If they want to just have a slugfest, go buy a FPS.
   This is a game where you not only have to blast your enemy, you have to outwit, outthink, and out wait them.  If you can't, you could be in for a rough battle.

[Villa64]

Wow this topic is raised from the dead!  It's like a bad sequel... You thought that cutting off Jasons head five times before was permanent, but here he is again, with the same plotline.

Same thing as every other time.  Until you have a definable standard for 'delaying tactics', then its the "spirit of the law" pilots vs the "letter of the law" pilots on this issue.  

"Hey you're going too fast, you are delaying"
"Hey you're going too slow, you are delaying"

I havent played SFC3, but it sound like a shot clock is a good idea.  Probably wouldnt work where the guy was truly determined to delay, but might cut another chunk of delayers out of the system.  

Another might be a change to the victory system.  If neither score any internal damage, and one disengages, match is considered a "draw", no PP's, no change in hex value status.

Another aspect to this is that there is a bigger picture in Dyna.  When you disengage, you lost the point on the hex.  But if you have a nice ship, you might want to get on with life so you can keep reducing the hex.  My point here is that a small guy might be doing alot of good just by tieing up the bigger ship who would otherwise be winning other matches.  As a big ship pilot, "cutting bait" might be a better idea than to stay around longer.

Also, Dyna allows you to go buy another ship.  If you have an enemy in your sector who is delaying, you might want to deploy a ship there that can better take care of that threat.  It's something that you can do actively to counter this tactic, under the current rules.

Villa

[FPF-DieHard]

I love when my oponent castles, they usually wind up dead.

If you are flying a specialty ship that has trouble breaking castles (Example, a droner or a fast cruiser) and your race's line/command cruiser can break castles, you've got nothing to bitch about.  Can't whine when you'r pony's one trick isn't the trick that's needed.

If you are in a Frigate and you're fighting a castling DN, get a reality check and stop waisting the DN's time. 

At the same time, a C7 Pilot has no obligation to close to range 8 on a Caslting BCF. 

[FPF-DieHard]

I couldn't disagre with you more I can fly between range 15 and 20 and fire dizzy at you all day and I'm still engaging. Tell me one good reason I should have to fight the way you want.

Gotta agree with Sears.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I can see both sides of the arguement myself.  Perhaps a way to settle it might be on the basis of the mission selected.  In some cases this might work.

For example in a Convoy escort/ Convoy raid the conditions of victory are set by the game, I don't think disengagement rules should apply to a raider that fulfills the missions victory requirement even if he leaves the map after doing so. 

Now take a shipyard assault.  The burden here would be on the ship running fast.  It would only be a matter of time before reinforcements arrived so if he was the attacker he would have to finish his mission quickly.  If he was the defender, he would have an obligation to protect the shipyard rather than flying around all the edges of the map.

Now conversely, in a mission such as a scan recovery the slower ship might have to pick up speed, otherwise the fast ship would simply run by and scan the data, and depart or if the fast ship was the defender he would be in his space and thus calling up reinforcements.

My point being, the nature of the missions might really be the key to determining who needs to change their tactics rather than preceptions about who is delaying the action.  I think most people are divided on this issue along the lines of the races they usually fly (with some exceptions) because each race has its strengtht and weaknessess. 

The Hydrans and Lyran likely the two most polar examples, it is rare that you see a Hydran fly over 15 and rare to see a Lyran fly under 20 (unless its Hexx and he has been in the mission over a minute  )  To call either one right or wrong in their approach seems silly to me, why not let the missions determine it, would give an additional advantage to a race defending their territory as they would have more control over their choice of missions in homespace.  As long as the missions offered were relatively balance for frequency of occurance I would see no problem with this.

I think this issue has reached a new level of importance with the advent of special disengagement rules.  Before no one minded losing a mission vs a starcastler so much as they could re-enter the hex.  I think of this as simply doing and end run against a static defender.  The defender castles and the attacker simply flies off the map and goes around him to hit the target or another target in that sector.  Now with the disengagement rule you get bumped for an extended period of time so more careful thought is needed regarding this issue.

[Villa64]

Oooooh.  Roger.  Disengagement rules. 

So if you get bored and leave, you get a self enforced hex ban for 20 turns (or how ever many).

Hmm.  I bet there is a logical median here somewhere.

Villa

[762_XC]

Firehawk, what happens when my DN comes out of the castle to chase your FF or CW or whatever, and you simply speed up and run away? At what point do you acknowledge that you're wasting my time and get off the map like you're supposed to?

[KAT J'inn]

Is this really that big a deal?

Besides.  We have to have stuff to fight and bitch and flame about during a campaign.  It is war afterall.  Who wants a poliet war? It's boring . . .


Klingon:  May I dizzy your arse now sir?

Federation:  Why, yes, please be my guest.   Finger Sandwich while you charge your overloads?

Klingon:  Why yes thank you. 

Federation:  If it's not too much bother I'd like to fire photons at you soon as well.

Klingon:  But of coruse.   Shall I drop my shields for you?

Federation: WHy thank you. But lets keep it challanging old sport.

Klingon:  Is this chipolte mayo on these sandwichs?

Federation:  Why yes it is.  Tea?

Klingon: Yes, thank you.

Federation: Shall we both T-Bomb Hexx now?

Klingon: Capital idea!

BORING!!!!

[FPF-DieHard]

I got an idea, if your oponent castles, you're allowed to call him a twat!   


Problem solved.

[Firehawk]

Firehawk, what happens when my DN comes out of the castle to chase your FF or CW or whatever, and you simply speed up and run away? At what point do you acknowledge that you're wasting my time and get off the map like you're supposed to?

First I wouldn't face a DN in a FF.  If the ship I am flying has no chance of defeating the ship when it is not castling then I would withdraw right after I drafted you and saw what you had.  If I thought that the ship I had stood a chance of winning then I would stay and try to draw you out of the castle.  If you sped up then I wouldn't run away.  I would do what I do with every opponent and try to maneuver myself into a position of strengh.  In the example of the L-CWLP vs H-Pal that I used that would be using the L-CWLP's better turn radius to get on the H-Pal's tail.

I agree that castling is a valid tactic and that some ships have no choice but to do that because of their power curve but I am saying that you can't say that I am wasting your time because I am not charging into your waiting guns.  You win battles by making your opponent play your game not by playing his, sometimes this takes a great deal of patience.  If you are in a ship that you don't think has the ability to play on my terms and don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake then it should be you that withdraws.  In the L-CWLP vs H-Pal example again the the CWLP can't go toe to toe at close range with a castling PAL holding overloads nor can it crack the facing shield at range(holding OL at speed 3 the Pal can put 16.5 points into shield reinforcement), so I have to hope you make a mistake and give me an opening or get bored and speed up in which case you just started playing the match on my terms giving me the advantage.  

Let me say again that I would never waste your time if I didn't think I had a chance of defeating you, but if I am in a ship that I think I can win in I am not going to withdraw just because you start castling and the ship/race I am in can't quickly break a castle.  I am sorry if you don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake or give you an opening.

[Grim]

There are people who i've flown against who go full speed around the map for 30 plus mins, i ask if they are going to even attempt to attack they say no you come and chase me.

I'm not going to chase someone at full speed if its going to increase my chances of getting killed in the process.

Like i said previously i have no problem if they are attacking at high speed going in and out of range and firing, but there are examples of people who have no intention of even attempting to attack, if this is the case they should disengage rather than waste time.

[Firehawk]

There are people who i've flown against who go full speed around the map for 30 plus mins, i ask if they are going to even attempt to attack they say no you come and chase me.

I'm not going to chase someone at full speed if its going to increase my chances of getting killed in the process.

Like i said previously i have no problem if they are attacking at high speed going in and out of range and firing, but there are examples of people who have no intention of even attempting to attack, if this is the case they should disengage rather than waste time.

Yes but if he hasn't fired a shot then I agree that you have the right to tell him to fight or leave.  I was responding to 762's comment about that even though you are firing at me you have no chance of breaking my shield reinforcement so you should withdraw.

Plus this also goes back to my point of forcing your opponent to play on your terms.  You say that you aren't going to speed up because it increases you chances of getting killed.  Well why should he slow down if it increases his chances of getting killed?

Also what about the H-Pal in my fisrt post?  It didn't fire a single shot or launch its fighters at in the first 30 min of the match either because I never came closer than range 10 and he had overloads. 

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Maybe he castles.  Maybe he doesn't.  What difference does it make?  Either way the fight is going to take three hours, right?  Right?  Right?

<looks left>

<looks right>

Why are all the non-Gorn laughing?



But seriously, in the situation Hexx describes  I don't see that either captain is under any obligation to leave.  You've both chosen a strategy that is diametric opposite of the other, but you both plan to fight on your terms  Now it becomes a game of patience.  Who has the most patience?  Who is needed elsewhere the most?  Who is willing to alter his strategy a little first?

Being someone who is rather fond of the castle myself, I have to recognize one thing:  the moment I castle, the initiative of the battle is in the other guy's hands.   What happens next is up to him so long as I keep castling.

When the fight or leave rule was made we had people who would fly around at 31 all day and never intend to try and hurt the enemy.  If you castled, they'd withdraw.  (Like Hexx)  If you sped up to chase, they turn and run further away.  (Unlike what Hexx is describing.)  I haven't seen that happen in a long, long time.

-S'Cipio

[762_XC]

Firehawk, what happens when my DN comes out of the castle to chase your FF or CW or whatever, and you simply speed up and run away? At what point do you acknowledge that you're wasting my time and get off the map like you're supposed to?

First I wouldn't face a DN in a FF.  If the ship I am flying has no chance of defeating the ship when it is not castling then I would withdraw right after I drafted you and saw what you had.  If I thought that the ship I had stood a chance of winning then I would stay and try to draw you out of the castle.  If you sped up then I wouldn't run away.  I would do what I do with every opponent and try to maneuver myself into a position of strengh.  In the example of the L-CWLP vs H-Pal that I used that would be using the L-CWLP's better turn radius to get on the H-Pal's tail.

I agree that castling is a valid tactic and that some ships have no choice but to do that because of their power curve but I am saying that you can't say that I am wasting your time because I am not charging into your waiting guns.  You win battles by making your opponent play your game not by playing his, sometimes this takes a great deal of patience.  If you are in a ship that you don't think has the ability to play on my terms and don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake then it should be you that withdraws.  In the L-CWLP vs H-Pal example again the the CWLP can't go toe to toe at close range with a castling PAL holding overloads nor can it crack the facing shield at range(holding OL at speed 3 the Pal can put 16.5 points into shield reinforcement), so I have to hope you make a mistake and give me an opening or get bored and speed up in which case you just started playing the match on my terms giving me the advantage.  

Let me say again that I would never waste your time if I didn't think I had a chance of defeating you, but if I am in a ship that I think I can win in I am not going to withdraw just because you start castling and the ship/race I am in can't quickly break a castle.  I am sorry if you don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake or give you an opening.

Then I think we agree more than we disagree. Unfortunately, like Grim says there are those who WILL run away and claim that I am under some obligation to chase them off the map. As a matter of fact my very last battle of GW4 went down like that.

As long as whatever tactic you are using has some chance of hurting me, then I have no problem with it. I would certainly never insult your intelligence by asking you to come into overload range.

[Hexx]

Well that discussion maneged to give me something to read for  , well almost a day.

Hmm what to ask next...

[Firehawk]

Firehawk, what happens when my DN comes out of the castle to chase your FF or CW or whatever, and you simply speed up and run away? At what point do you acknowledge that you're wasting my time and get off the map like you're supposed to?

First I wouldn't face a DN in a FF.  If the ship I am flying has no chance of defeating the ship when it is not castling then I would withdraw right after I drafted you and saw what you had.  If I thought that the ship I had stood a chance of winning then I would stay and try to draw you out of the castle.  If you sped up then I wouldn't run away.  I would do what I do with every opponent and try to maneuver myself into a position of strengh.  In the example of the L-CWLP vs H-Pal that I used that would be using the L-CWLP's better turn radius to get on the H-Pal's tail.

I agree that castling is a valid tactic and that some ships have no choice but to do that because of their power curve but I am saying that you can't say that I am wasting your time because I am not charging into your waiting guns.  You win battles by making your opponent play your game not by playing his, sometimes this takes a great deal of patience.  If you are in a ship that you don't think has the ability to play on my terms and don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake then it should be you that withdraws.  In the L-CWLP vs H-Pal example again the the CWLP can't go toe to toe at close range with a castling PAL holding overloads nor can it crack the facing shield at range(holding OL at speed 3 the Pal can put 16.5 points into shield reinforcement), so I have to hope you make a mistake and give me an opening or get bored and speed up in which case you just started playing the match on my terms giving me the advantage.  

Let me say again that I would never waste your time if I didn't think I had a chance of defeating you, but if I am in a ship that I think I can win in I am not going to withdraw just because you start castling and the ship/race I am in can't quickly break a castle.  I am sorry if you don't have the patience to wait for me to make a mistake or give you an opening.

Then I think we agree more than we disagree. Unfortunately, like Grim says there are those who WILL run away and claim that I am under some obligation to chase them off the map. As a matter of fact my very last battle of GW4 went down like that.

As long as whatever tactic you are using has some chance of hurting me, then I have no problem with it. I would certainly never insult your intelligence by asking you to come into overload range.

Playing mainly romulan I have experienced those that only want to run around at range 40+ doing speed 30 and never turn and engage also.

And that couldn't have been your very last battle of GW4.  Your very last battle of GW4 was me(KCRF) and Dizzy(KRCS) vs you(CVAR), Jinn(HDW something) and Komodo(CLC) resluting in the death of the CLC and both me and dizzy. 

[SSCF-LeRoy]

Now on GW..uhmm..3 I thin it was I flew against a few pilots that castled, some completely outgunned my ship, some didn't.
The ship I was in was not suited (imho) to breaking a castle.
So I refused to engage. I flew around outside their weapon range until they sped up a bit (15+) where I proceeded to attack, they'd usually slow back down to 3-8, and I'd fly out of their range again.
rinse & repeat.

Now why does this strike me as so familiar...?





<snicker>

[Hexx]

LOL yep Im guessing you were one of them.
- but at least you had a sense of humor about it 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

funny how the  "<Snicker>" came out in LeRoy's post concerning a match where he was Flying Kzin.  Definately has potential,  I think he needs to come over to the Furry side......

Look at it this way LeRoy, we never paint our clubhouse, kinda pointless as the spraying would peel any paint off the walls.......

[762_XC]

And that couldn't have been your very last battle of GW4.  Your very last battle of GW4 was me(KCRF) and Dizzy(KRCS) vs you(CVAR), Jinn(HDW something) and Komodo(CLC) resluting in the death of the CLC and both me and dizzy. 

You are right! It must have been the one right before that, before I came over to the Rom front.

That was a GG BTW. 

[Firehawk]

And that couldn't have been your very last battle of GW4.  Your very last battle of GW4 was me(KCRF) and Dizzy(KRCS) vs you(CVAR), Jinn(HDW something) and Komodo(CLC) resluting in the death of the CLC and both me and dizzy. 

You are right! It must have been the one right before that, before I came over to the Rom front.

That was a GG BTW. 

Yes that was a good game. 

[FPF-DieHard]

And that couldn't have been your very last battle of GW4.  Your very last battle of GW4 was me(KCRF) and Dizzy(KRCS) vs you(CVAR), Jinn(HDW something) and Komodo(CLC) resluting in the death of the CLC and both me and dizzy. 

You are right! It must have been the one right before that, before I came over to the Rom front.

That was a GG BTW. 

Yes that was a good game. 

How could it have been a good game if J'inn lived?   

[762_XC]

Dude, J'inn WON the game!

[madelf]

Ok, entire topic read and absorbed.
      First, to all Klingons/Lyrans, if you're having trouble breaking a castle, just find someone who knows how to do it, and Learn!!!  Part of that might be needing to actually break a castle if need be.
      Second, to DH.  Ok, sounds like being allowed to call your opponent a twat if they castle is a sufficient punishment to me.
      Third, tOOl, umm...  stop being a tool.     If someone isn't gonna charge into OL range, but they're staying in saber range, then they are engaging.  Don't try to bully folks in the forums to thinking they have to charge your overloads (though it is funny to watch sometimes).

[Hexx]

"Learn"?

Again if I ever planned to "learn" something don't you think I would have done it by now?

Sides now that I'm back to flying Lyran Ill have no problem with castles.
Just run right up, smack them with OL's and rng 0 ESG sand Ill win the game.
No worries.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Sides now that I'm back to flying Lyran Ill have no problem with castles.
Just run right up, smack them with OL's and rng 0 ESG sand Ill win the game.
No worries.

Hexx is actually quite good at breaking castles, and this photo proves it



<Snicker>

[762_XC]

Elf,

Never in life have I required someone to charge into overload range. Perish the thought; I will always allow my opponent the honor and courtesy of choosing their own tactics, as long as their tactics are designed to win as opposed to simply delay and waste time.

[madelf]

Elf,

Never in life have I required someone to charge into overload range. Perish the thought; I will always allow my opponent the honor and courtesy of choosing their own tactics, as long as their tactics are designed to win as opposed to simply delay and waste time.

Well, fighting over castling is just silly.  Just cause it's usually feds wwho do it, vs klingons, it's got a really bad rap.  But I've done it myself, sometimes as rom, sometimes even as Klink (vs Hydran, in a 2v1).  It's a valid tactic, and not at all unbeatable.  You're right to defend it.

[FPF-Wanderer]

Well, I guess what it really comes down to is this;  the pilots in mission are really the ones who have to "interpret" whether one is wasting the other's time.  If it comes down to it, the complaintants can send films to their respective RM's for discussion. That is part of the RM's job description, after all...wait a minute, that would mean me....ack!!!  Player complaints, run away!!!

[KBF-Crim]

I might point out  that "delaying" and "wasting time" of an enemy force IS a valid military tactic...

Running around with no intent to fight is bad sportsmanship....pinning a ship two classes bigger into an engagement, risking destruction, or routing from the hex,....is not.

[Dizzy]

How many of you use these silly tactics, anyway? Be original. Do something different.

[762_XC]

I might point out  that "delaying" and "wasting time" of an enemy force IS a valid military tactic...

Running around with no intent to fight is bad sportsmanship....pinning a ship two classes bigger into an engagement, risking destruction, or routing from the hex,....is not.

As long as they're actually risking destruction I agree.

[Grim]

How many of you use these silly tactics, anyway? Be original. Do something different.

Nice comment i assume its sarcastic, seriously though if i'm flying aginst someone in the case of castling i will do so if i feel it would be detrimental for me to chase the opponent down at high speed. Its a valid tactic and most of the time i speed up and then recastle or creep along so i dont castle all the time.

[el-Karnak]

I have an easy solution to all this delaying debate mess in PvP done in patrol missions on the dyna. 

Come up with a max. cap time for PvP in all the patrol missions. Then when that time expires, the mission can start spawning new enemy AI. It could be randomized to determine which side get the reinforcements first. The side that did not get reinforcements for the given cycle would get them no later than 3 minutes after the other side got theirs.  You can then repeat the reinforcment cycle when the max. cap time period expires again.

The rationale behind this is that when a PvP is going on, both sides are sending out comm traffic for back-up. Sooner or later that back-up will arrive but not necessarily at the same time.  Practically every EEK mission that is NOT a patrol mission already does reinforcement cycles after set time periods. For example, attack a convoy and within 4 minutes reinforcement escorts for the convoy show up. Attack a Planet and every 10 to 15 minutes the defenders are getting reinforcements. Same goes for Homeward, Base and shipyard assaults.  Mine and Dizzy's favorite:  Dockyard raid.  Smoke 2 FRDs fast otherwise 4 enemy defender reinforcements shown up at range 30 about 10 minutes into the mission. Can you say phaser those FRDs chop-chop. *snicker*

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Interesting idea Karnak, although I'd suggest making victory (for purposes of DV shift) be contigent on destroying the primary defenders and not the reinforcements. The only problem I do see is where a frigate might fly around vs a dread not engaging but hoping to draw the first reinforcements. 

[KBF-Kurok]

starcastling is a valid tactic. What  makes me  mad is when it is beeing done and the person in the starcastle starts complaining about how long it is taking. When the castler started that  tactic they knew  they  had just made a decision to prolong the  battle. to those people i say STFU and deal with it. I will take as long as I need to to break your castle after all it WAS YOUR
CHOICE in the first place.
 If I DECIDE I CAN"T BREAK THE CASTLE I WILL LEAVE. Wheter or not you think I can  has absolutly no bearing on my decision.
Kurok

[el-Karnak]

Interesting idea Karnak, although I'd suggest making victory (for purposes of DV shift) be contigent on destroying the primary defenders and not the reinforcements. The only problem I do see is where a frigate might fly around vs a dread not engaging but hoping to draw the first reinforcements. 

Thanks.

EEK Patrol missions do not end until one side loses all their ships, so waiting around doing nothing would be a bad idea if the EEK patrol were to have recurring reinforcements feature added in.  If a frigate player facing a DN player rolled the dice hoping to get the first reinforcements it would not be much of an advantage because the DN would get their reinforcements 3 minutes after the frigate did. But, if I was the DN player I would go at speed 31, right at mission start, and tractor the silly frigate. If the DN can't do that cuz it's under-powered (like many early DNs) then it should be escorted. Most heavy iron ships like DNs and BCHs should be escorted so I am not gonna worry too much if the DN cannot go speed 31. Find an escort and have that player run down the frigate in the first couple of minutes of the missions at speed 31.

[KBF-Crim]

I might point out  that "delaying" and "wasting time" of an enemy force IS a valid military tactic...

Running around with no intent to fight is bad sportsmanship....pinning a ship two classes bigger into an engagement, risking destruction, or routing from the hex,....is not.

As long as they're actually risking destruction I agree.

 ....Dennis threw in the "battle pass" rule before the wind went out of SFCoC....brought a whole new risk to pickets,pins, and holding actions...

I would think closing to scanning range at least once in the battle....would be risk enough...depending how outclassed you are...

[FPF-DieHard]

I have an easy solution to all this delaying debate mess in PvP done in patrol missions on the dyna. 

Come up with a max. cap time for PvP in all the patrol missions. Then when that time expires, the mission can start spawning new enemy AI. It could be randomized to determine which side get the reinforcements first. The side that did not get reinforcements for the given cycle would get them no later than 3 minutes after the other side got theirs.  You can then repeat the reinforcment cycle when the max. cap time period expires again.

I hate this idea, I do not want AI interupting my 2 hours battles 

I LOVE long PvP fights, matches against good pilots should take a long time.

[el-Karnak]

I have an easy solution to all this delaying debate mess in PvP done in patrol missions on the dyna. 

Come up with a max. cap time for PvP in all the patrol missions. Then when that time expires, the mission can start spawning new enemy AI. It could be randomized to determine which side get the reinforcements first. The side that did not get reinforcements for the given cycle would get them no later than 3 minutes after the other side got theirs.  You can then repeat the reinforcment cycle when the max. cap time period expires again.

I hate this idea, I do not want AI interupting my 2 hours battles 

I LOVE long PvP fights, matches against good pilots should take a long time.

Well, all righty then...just call your ship the USS Pee-Pee Cup  and I'll make that the patrols never spawn AI for you again.

PS.  This actually really could be done in the mission scripts. 

[FPF-DieHard]

Well, all righty then...just call your ship the USS Pee-Pee Cup 

Bastard!!!!!!!