Topic: A Klingon Khristmas  (Read 7340 times)

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Offline Chris Johnson

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2004, 02:51:06 pm »
I don't think Klingons would want to implement a Terran-style of beauty to please the majority of Starfleet whilst shoving it into battle... Klingons--more than Federation--design form with function a little more than the Federation does.  If you truely want beauty in Starships, try looking towards the Romulan Star Empire and their bird-shaped starships they've designed over the years.

"Oh, shut up!" -- Wil Wheaton to Wesley Crusher

Offline S33K100

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2004, 04:15:52 pm »
Really there's no need to say that a warrior culture can't appreciate aesthetics, most warlike cultures in history have had a sense of appreciation for beauty of their weaponry and it's use, take the Japanese, the Tenchu and it's replacement the Katana made swordcraft and swordfighting a deadly artform, planes, guns, armour; everything that's been used to kill often happens to look pretty nice at the same time, aesthetics is more often than not a function of ergonomics.
If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then the deepest spy cannot discern it, nor the wise make plans against it.

Sun Tzu 'The Art of War'.

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Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2004, 04:38:57 pm »
"Form follows Function" as atolm likes to remind me.

The ship is great, its an awsome extrapolation of a B10.
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Offline Chris Johnson

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2004, 05:02:32 pm »
Really there's no need to say that a warrior culture can't appreciate aesthetics, most warlike cultures in history have had a sense of appreciation for beauty of their weaponry and it's use, take the Japanese, the Tenchu and it's replacement the Katana made swordcraft and swordfighting a deadly artform, planes, guns, armour; everything that's been used to kill often happens to look pretty nice at the same time, aesthetics is more often than not a function of ergonomics.

That still doesn't mean Klingons have to comply to our species's view of aesthetics.  They have aesthetics of their own.  What they can value aesthetic we can value ugly.  One person's garbage is another person's tresure.

"Oh, shut up!" -- Wil Wheaton to Wesley Crusher

Offline Azel

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2004, 05:49:44 pm »
I started to a more detailed reply to this, but on reading it I decided it was just so negative, I'd be better off holding my tongue to avoid upsetting anyone...  However, textures aside, I've got to say, that this is the ugliest WZ model / Azel design I've ever seen...  :o

Sorry

MajorRacal
LOL
First off your comment is correct...but considering the original source of the design...I feel that this is a major improvement...As many of you can attest SFB and FASA starships have alot to be desired  in their designs...lol
I mean with SFB the designs are made from only one hull type (say a D-7) and ran with it till its death...even to the point of nonsense.
This is not SFB fault though as they only had 4 ships to choose from: Connie, D-7, BoP, and Tholian...no variants were ever made due to budgetary constraints
FASA runs into a similar problem...but they had more references to go by and to "mangle" again I am sure that the concepts were of good intent but not so good execution.
See everyone is going tio run into the problem of "Cool" vs not...its a personal opinion basted on the level of conservatism and era of that person being raised
I know tons of people who love the  SFB designs and consider the newer stuff to be "BS" and the same can be said viice versa .
I personally like the way this ship came out...considering its origin...I know your problems with the design MR...and its cool.   You and I have discussed our astetics on starship design numerous times...so I know where you are comming from..and that's cool...but all I say is consider the source of the actual design and compare it as a TMP refit of the design as done by Me and WZ...if you donot like it its cool...just don't DL it...
Hope to catch  you soon Online mate :)
Cheers and Happy Holidays
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Offline S33K100

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2004, 06:11:56 pm »
I don't think it's that ugly, personally, sure it's no comparison with the K'T'inga or the B'rel but that's not really practical with a Battleship. Still it's about ten times better looking than the qeylIS-betleH from Klingon Academy. The only thing I'd really change about it is the front engines are really dinky, they are just a bit disproportionately small for such a bulky ship, it looks even worse when the front is separated, I can see they're meant to be the same engines as on the K'T'inga but still.

BTW Atolm, bet you can't make a good looking TMP Klingon SFB frigate - the E4/F5, (at least not without completely designing a new ship and not using anything from the SFB one). ;)
If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then the deepest spy cannot discern it, nor the wise make plans against it.

Sun Tzu 'The Art of War'.

S33K100: formerly Marauth

Offline Azel

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2004, 06:58:14 pm »
Quote
BTW Atolm, bet you can't make a good looking TMP Klingon SFB frigate - the E4/F5, (at least not without completely designing a new ship and not using anything from the SFB one)
???  wait are you asking me to redesign it totally or to use the current SFB design and make it "work" better???
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Offline S33K100

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2004, 07:30:16 pm »
existing design, make it work better. I said it'd be almost impossible to make it look good without totally redesigning it knowing full well that you'd probably find a way to make it look good anyway, half-joking, half-challenge.
If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then the deepest spy cannot discern it, nor the wise make plans against it.

Sun Tzu 'The Art of War'.

S33K100: formerly Marauth

Offline Azel

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2004, 08:14:08 pm »
ok..np..I did it and handed it over to WZ for review
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Offline USS Mariner

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2004, 08:15:59 pm »
ok..np..I did it and handed it over to WZ for review

 :o
"Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man, you gain a thousandfold." - Khan

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Offline S33K100

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2004, 09:06:52 pm »
holy sheaoiuaeoaeaeaaeoit that was fast :o
If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then the deepest spy cannot discern it, nor the wise make plans against it.

Sun Tzu 'The Art of War'.

S33K100: formerly Marauth

Offline madelf

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2004, 09:36:42 pm »
Really there's no need to say that a warrior culture can't appreciate aesthetics, most warlike cultures in history have had a sense of appreciation for beauty of their weaponry and it's use, take the Japanese, the Tenchu and it's replacement the Katana made swordcraft and swordfighting a deadly artform, planes, guns, armour; everything that's been used to kill often happens to look pretty nice at the same time, aesthetics is more often than not a function of ergonomics.

That still doesn't mean Klingons have to comply to our species's view of aesthetics.  They have aesthetics of their own.  What they can value aesthetic we can value ugly.  One person's garbage is another person's tresure.

"We" happen to think it's quite beautiful.   ;)

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2004, 11:39:47 pm »
What the elf said... ;)

Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2004, 12:34:00 am »
Generally, what determines whether or not a design/look is good or not is how it stands the test of time. Old corvettes and Ferraris still look good. Some, 50yrs. after their design. The same is true for the TOS Connie and D7. They get updated, but the designs are still good ones.

So, only time will tell. Of course I like it, personally, and I hope that the designs keep coming.
If Romulans aren't cowards, then why do they taste like chicken?

Offline MajorRacal

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2004, 07:45:52 am »
For the benefit of everyone else, I wasn't actually attacking Azel or WZ for the B-10, and since I don't want to start to leave anything that could be construed as unpleasant, I think I should explain my earlier comment...

I knew Azel would understand my disquiet, and as he said - we've discussed aesthetics on many occasions and we pretty much know where we stand on certain issues (I'll say no more on warp nacelles  ;D).  In fact most of the time we agree, and come up with similar ideas, because we tend to share a similar aesthetic taste.  Azel, arguaby showcases his beautiful organic designs better than anyone else and better than I ever will - and I doubt I'll ever reach the point where I can even sniff WZ's modelling and texturing prowess.

Anyway, as for my particular opinion of this particular model, I HAD to post, because it is unique, in that this is the ONLY design I've ever seen either from WZ or Azel that I've actually loathed.  As I pointed out, my original post would have highlighted my reasoning in greater detail, but when I re-read it, I felt it was just too negative and frankly could have been construed as inflamatory - neither of which would have been helpful nor desirable - so I changed it...

Now for the benefit of others, about my personal ideal on Klingon design... form is as important as function.  This IS a personal ideal and you're free to disagree, but if you look at what we've seen of Klingon culture so far, you might understand why: the weapons, the architecture, the ships, the glyphs of their writing, even their cultural crests - all stem from a common aesthetic - clean, sweeping lines and hard edges - simple, elegant, functional and menacing.  For me, this is what is lacking in the B-10... there are certainly the lines and edges, but these are interupted and give a disjointed appearance.  There is too much going on in one small space and the elegance is stolen.  Rather than appear menacing, she appears awkward and clumsy.  Now, for a race of warriors, it is surely important that intimidation of foes is an essential aspect of any warfare, so this awkwardness is clearly not in their best interest.  The psychological aspect of catching sight of one or more of their ships on your tail is clearly an important one.  Even in our own culture this is true - size alone is not the critical factor in intimation - or else we'd all be scared of everyday things like buses or multi-storey buildings.  Menace is designed in.  It's may not necessarily be a conscious decision, but it is often there...  In our airforces, the fighters tend to emulate the shapes of fast avian predators - now if you think about that, you'll mostly find that throughout (natural) history, these predatory forms are stripped down to the bare essentials to enhance their function - hunting.  It could be argued that in our airforces this is can be mostly pegged to aerodynamics, but since these designs progressively emulate nature to various degrees, these shapes are ones that a great deal of lifeforms naturally identify with predation and therefore link directly to the notion of threat, danger and intimidation.  Now if we look at more mundane things like cars - again this should be evident.  Someone mentioned the likes of Ferrari etc... here again form reflects function and I'm sure you'll agree, common emotive descriptors for sports type cars are 'mean' or 'fierce', both descriptors of intimidation and fear.  However, in addition, there is a strong notion of beauty and desirability - which links again to the notion of elegance...  I could go and on and bore you silly (or confuse you with my overly prosaic explanation), but you can see that I've actually thought about what it is I don't like, and why I feel this way about this particular design - it's much more than a 'this sucks'.

In balance, I must admit, that based on the more hideous original source material , this is a well constructed model and beautifully textured to WZ's usual high standard - and so, I respectfully tip my hat to you both!!

MajorRacal

PS - WZ/Azel keep 'em coming,..

PPS - Azel, I finish working on Wednesday so  I'll catch you over the holidays for another marathon blether - but I still have homework and four case studies to do for before my Hypnotherapy exam in mid January, so my time will likely be limited.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2004, 09:54:26 am by MajorRacal »

Offline Azel

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2004, 08:02:31 am »
Aye!!!
Sounds Great

I look foward to chatting on Weds

Look for me...I will make myself availble :)
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Offline S33K100

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2004, 10:46:03 am »
Racal, I understand your criticism of this ship and I can see what it is that you dislike in it, I generally speaking agree with you, the general aesthetic that Klingon ships sheem to share is absent but I think it is not the whole ship but rather certain aspects of it that look awkward. Specifically the bizzare and rather stupid multi-layered bridge structure which appears as if it's going to fall over any time soon, the neck-nacelles which appear like deformed shrunken arms and finally the back end of the ship which is too tall and juts out of the ship ruining the line of the sweeping wings. I've tried fixing the first two problem and the ship looks tens times sleeker but without the two extra nacelles it ain't really a B10 anymore.
If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then the deepest spy cannot discern it, nor the wise make plans against it.

Sun Tzu 'The Art of War'.

S33K100: formerly Marauth

Offline ModelsPlease

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2004, 11:07:14 am »
This has been a refreshing thread on an old problem. Obviously there's no denying WZ in his usual undead way ahs smoked the model. But based on what everyone agrees about what makes the B10 the B10 I put a challange to the man I know could possibly make it happen....Azel all things being what they are with this ship could you redesign it,keeping all the attributes needed to make it a B10? SO that it's short comings are no longer an issue?
-MP

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Offline Azel

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2004, 11:45:10 am »
This has been a refreshing thread on an old problem. Obviously there's no denying WZ in his usual undead way ahs smoked the model. But based on what everyone agrees about what makes the B10 the B10 I put a challange to the man I know could possibly make it happen....Azel all things being what they are with this ship could you redesign it,keeping all the attributes needed to make it a B10? SO that it's short comings are no longer an issue?
-MP
So You want me to make a TMP Klingon B10 If I where to totally redesign it but keep the major parts that make it a B10...
Such as:
-400 meters plus length
-4 nacelles(2 for the detachment, and 2 for the hull)
-compound bridge( I think I would lean towards 2 bridges...1 on the hull the other on its normal place)
-D-7 esq design philosophy
-and just plain mean
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Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: A Klingon Khristmas
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2004, 11:56:33 am »
This has been a refreshing thread on an old problem. Obviously there's no denying WZ in his usual undead way ahs smoked the model. But based on what everyone agrees about what makes the B10 the B10 I put a challange to the man I know could possibly make it happen....Azel all things being what they are with this ship could you redesign it,keeping all the attributes needed to make it a B10? SO that it's short comings are no longer an issue?
-MP
So You want me to make a TMP Klingon B10 If I where to totally redesign it but keep the major parts that make it a B10...
Such as:
-400 meters plus length
-4 nacelles(2 for the detachment, and 2 for the hull)
-compound bridge( I think I would lean towards 2 bridges...1 on the hull the other on its normal place)
-D-7 esq design philosophy
-and just plain mean

Hmmm...varients.....yes...we want more versions... ;)

Maybe a couple fighter bays   *grin*