Topic: Voyager vs. Enterprise D

[FCM_SFHQ_XC]

That does raise a point as in why have the borg not used that conduit end point before, instead following the traditional, send a cube 30-40,000 light years to try to hit Earth.. I could only guess that it's because the borg were leaving that advantage for a 'suprise' one day.. but one can only guess I suppose there. Who knows when that conduit was actually established too

[Czar Mohab]

I think that this could fall under "Hero Worship". Or "Epic Plot Holes". Or "Mohab is an uber-nerd". One of those.

I'm afraid I must invoke the Defiant principle in dealing with Hero ships and their plot armor as well as the Law of Enterprise which both state it is perfectly permissible to destroy a Hero ship so long as the crew escape and a suitable replacement is available that can be renamed for the fallen vessel. See ST III/ST IV, Generations/First Contact, and DS 9 The Changing Face of Evil/Dogs of War.

True. Three ships lost and (relatively) promptly replaced.

Same thing happened with Tasha Yar (replaced by Worf), Spock (replaced by Spock), Jadzia (replaced by Ezri) Dax, Beverly Crusher (replaced by Kate Polaski), Kate Polasaki (replaced by Beverly Crusher), Kes (replaced by Seven of Nine, although slightly backwards from the norm), and Wil Decker (replaced by Jimmy Kirk). There's more but that's just what I can remember off the top of my head.

These heroes, and the hero ships, existed as long as plot dictated. How many torpedoes did Voyager really have? 34. How many did they use? I lost count (I think the writers did, too) last time I tried to count them. At least twice Janeway mentioned "Shuttlebay Two". I'm not denying that there might have been two; I just only ever saw the one. Don't get me started on Voyager's shuttles and the mysterious "extra" warp core on the MSD. Its just the cool little things that we need to believe.

The Intrepid-class also featured a secondary warp assembly. (VOY: "Alice")

The secondary warp assembly was never seen as a set on-screen, but was featured in the MSD as a second warp core in the secondary hull of the ship.

Why? Because its a hero ship. Its what they do - they take the requisite plot situation and solve the problem. At the end of the day (or seventh season for Voyager) they come home. Or carry on as if nothing happened (with a few exceptions driven by plot - TNG:"Family" comes to mind). Or whatever else heroes do.

Equinox, Reliant, Oddesey, Yamato, and countless others blew up and we didn't bat an eyelash. Non-heroes. Who cares? The next episode/movie we've moved on. The crew of the affected ship has moved on (or tried to, STIII:"The Search for Spock). The "hero-ness" of the ship is why a single Borg cube can obliterate the fleet at Wolf 359 and only damage the impulse engines of the Enterprise's saucer in the very next battle.

Voyager and Enterprise (any of them, really) are hero ships. Hero ships generally don't get destroyed. Endgame Voyager could go toe to toe with Broken Bow NX-01 and neither would be destroyed. Damaged, disabled, crippled, crunched, smacked, slammed, smattered, or anything else, sure. Just not destroyed. Its the nature of hero ships.

With an approximately 99.59% survival rate (more if you consider DS9 was never destroyed, less if you count that it was captured... twice (once by them, once by us); and I'm not even counting runabouts, shuttlecraft or other auxilliary craft), we clearly see that hero ships generally don't get destroyed.

Now, before I go on, I must emphasize that I am not attacking the "Defiant principle" or "The Law of Enterprise" - I'm just pointing out that I agree, and supporting the point.

It is this "hero-ness" we would have to discard for a true "battle" between any two (or more) hero ships (or individuals, for that matter). The "hero-ness" implies that the inertial dampners go off line at the worst possible moment, or the starboard power coupling fails yet again. Its the one and only thing that would keep either of the ships alive when perhaps it shouldn't be. Its the unfair advantage that keeps a certain ship's fanboys whining when the ship loses and bragging when it wins.

And we can't have any of it if we're to properly assess the capabilities of two combatants. It has to be "equal" whether it is hero vs. hero or hero vs. generic or generic vs. generic.

This does not, however, count the crew. While lightly touched upon here, its another bag of worms for another day.

Cheers,
The Czar

[FCM_SFHQ_XC]

Then the answer becomes obvious to the question.. in the case of hero vs hero, the answer becomes obvious on who wins..

Borg Cubes transwarp in last second as Voy/Ent are in battle.. both become crippled, we never(nor will ever) find out the answer, and once they repair, they got a Borg invasion to repel now!

[Age]

The Defiant can kick the D rear with it cannons q torps.

Need to check under your bed for a plasma coolant leak...or maybe just carbon monoxide.  The Defiant would be in the same boat it was in vs the Cube in FC, adrift awaiting salvage.

That was a cube and if you recall the Defiant taking the Lakota.It would certianly have an easy time with the Ent-D even separated.

What about

Data-Seven of Nine-?

If Kirk were stuck Delta quadrant he would of had Spock and Scotty to come up with cloaking device.

I do think that most other ships do use Isolinear chips like the Sovy.

[Czar Mohab]

Defiant vs. Lakota? Not a fair evaluation of the two ships. One had orders to kill and was trying to do exactly that; the other was only trying to disable and survive. The Defiant principle also applies in this battle. Now, if you said "Defiant class with all the bugs worked out vs. Excelsior class modified to the Lakota's standards, both playing for the kill" we'd have a good show.

In either event, the Defiant class suffers from one HUMONGUS disadvantage: its primary offensive (also has 2x aft torp launchers and one each dorsal and ventral "standard" phaser, iirc) power is focused on only one arc (SFB's FA at best, SFB's mauler at worst, but I feel its somewhere in between the two). A ship like the Lakota has a larger, 360 x 360 weapons arc. That means that no matter where the target is, Lakota can hit it, but the Defiant would have to turn to bring its main weapons into arc.

Now, to the Defiant's credit, this would spread damage across multiple shields, but eventually one or more of those will fail. The Defiant, in turn, should be able to maintain its focus on one or two shields assuming the target wasn't very maneuverable.

Enough about those two. Honestly, I feel it would be a toss up anyway.

The Defiant principle also applies to the Borg cube incident. Honestly, how else was Worf supposed to get on the Enterprise? Just walk onto the bridge like he'd been there the whole time?

Data vs. Seven? They'd run off and "explore their humanity" together. Seven would ask him if she was his first, to which he would innocently compare her to Tasha Yar. They would continue the "exploration" for a little while, but eventually she'd go female praying mantis on him, and she'd be the first Soong-type former Borg drone after she'd integrated some of his components into herself.

Kirk lost on the other side of the galaxy (really, does it matter where?) opens up an entire slough of possibilities that greatly exceed any of those that Janeway might have had. Coming up with a cloaking device is up there with that.

I'm not sure I can agree, however, with the "all isolinear" fleet. The Sovereign and the Intrepid classes were built around the same time and should have equivalent computing and control systems. The rest of the fleet should probably be recieving the "brain bag" upgrades as they come in for overhauls on an as-needed basis. Obviously, not all the ships would get the good stuff, but most eventually would, or at least should, even if its just a partial conversion (such as adding a single "brain bag" for one vital system).

Cheers,
The Czar

P.S. May this thread never die again... This is the good stuff.

[knightstorm]

The Enterprise wins because they have Wesley Crusher.

TNG Recut 9 A Klingon Orgasm

[Nemesis]

The Enterprise loses because Deanna is at the helm.

[knightstorm]

The Enterprise loses because Deanna is at the helm.

Unless of course Voyager is the thing she flies into.

[TAnimaL]

We interrupt this thread that seems to not want to die for a brief personal rant....

WTF, Mythbusters? That whole "elephants afraid of mice" IS a myth. I don't know what was really going on in that test they ran, but I, personally and with my own eyes, have seen elephants ignore mice. I worked at a zoo for 5 years and got to experience a lot of personal interactions. I had no doubt the polar bears wanted to tear me apart, the silverback gorilla  thought I wanted his females, and the closest I came to dying was from the fearless and agressive elephants (from my own stupidity). In a zoo, especially an urban one, mice are omnipresent and could be seen skirting the edges of the elephant enclosure, ignored by the elephants. I stupidly entered their space to meet a keeper and they turned on me without hesitation, and only the quick intervention by the keeper spared my life. I once aseked a elephant keeper about the whole mouse/elephant thing and he claimed to have seen one eat a mouse after stepping on it.

Perhaps in the Mythbusters test it was the novelty of something out of the ordinary the elephant reacted to. Maybe it would have done the same if surprised by a windup toy or a groundhog, but a "natural" fear of mice? FAIL.

(Sorry. I hate stupid "urban myths & legends" with a passion and take it personally when it comes to magnificent creatures like elephants. And I expect better from you, Mythbusters)

End rant

We now return to our long-running thread, still in progress...

[TAnimaL]

This whole thread (fun reading) reminds me a ST comic book from 98, where Q & Trelane are playing a game and switch Kirk onto the Ent-E and Picard onto 1701. The morale of the story is Kirk can talk/think his way out like Picard, Picard can fight his way out like Kirk, and when Q & Trelane want  the two ships/crews to fight each other, they cooperate.

Oh, and yes, Kirk hits on Troi.

The whole thing was worth if for this image alone...

[Vipre]

We interrupt this thread that seems to not want to die for a brief personal rant....

  You didn't interrupt, you resuscitated. The thread flat-lined four months ago.