Topic: TOS Constitution Version 3 Done! Uploaded (Read 13540 times)

Chris Johnson · « **Reply #60 on:** December 30, 2004, 01:44:22 am »

Just a question... Why just go for absolute canon all the time? Canon information can be a mixed bag at times, from starship specs and design evolution to Earth's very own History. Everyone can compare the NX-01 to her twenty-fourth century counterpart the Akira-class Starship, and then compare with another 22nd-century Earth vessel, the Daedelus and see how cheesy and primitive it looks in comparison to the more-developed NX-01. It may even be a newer design rather than the simple sphere and cylindrical hull later on in the series.
As for history, first contact with Romulans came first in canon, then Klingons in the early-23rd century. Then came Enterprise, where Klingons were found in 2151 rather than 2218, and how cloaking devices were commonly seen yet is a suprise in "Balance of Terror" (TOS) to Kirk and crew when they found the more-primitive-looking Romulan ship appear and disappear with their uncloak-attack-cloak manuvering.

My point is that canon information is a mixed bag as I said before. You don't know what to trust: The previously-established canon or the newly-established canon? Do we trust Worf's knowledge of Earth weapons development and disreguard the NX-01 completely due to its Phaser and Photon weaponry? Or do we say that Worf was wrong all along when he said "There are no phasers in the twenty-second century." in "A Matter of Time" (TNG)? What is transwarp, really? Infinate speed from point A to point B or just another Slip Stream-esque conduit as if it came from Stargate or Babylon 5?

We do take canon info a lot, but shouldn't we spit out some things we chew?

Pestalence_XC · « **Reply #61 on:** December 30, 2004, 04:30:57 pm »

B and B did not like Gene Roddenberry's dream for Trek.. they want ratings and in the process they are destroying the Trek series from the inside out with the fans... Enterprise as a series, if you think about it as an alternate universe or even the mirror universe, then it is great... otherwise, if you look at it in the Trek timelike most of us who watched TOS in the beginning.. Enterprise is a disgrace to the Trek franchise period...

Gene Roddenberry stated.. if it is on the big screen or on TV, it is canon.. and if someone puts something on screen that contradicts a previous episode.. the the Oldest episode is canon since the script writers couldn't do their job in researching older scripts...

as such, TOS canon takes precidence.. then TNG then DS9 then Voyager, then Ent.. since Ent is nothing but contradiction of established canon.. it must be an alternate universe or even the mirror universe if it intends to claim itself as a Trek production...

Captain Pierce · « **Reply #62 on:** December 30, 2004, 07:37:40 pm »

Quote from: Pestalence on December 30, 2004, 04:30:57 pm

B and B did not like Gene Roddenberry's dream for Trek.. they want ratings and in the process they are destroying the Trek series from the inside out with the fans...

And yet they signed off on the Encyclopedia that has the same registries that you're quoting at us as "canon."

Quote

Gene Roddenberry stated.. if it is on the big screen or on TV, it is canon

Unless it's the Animated Series...

USS Mariner · « **Reply #63 on:** December 30, 2004, 07:46:02 pm »

Quote from: Pestalence on December 30, 2004, 04:30:57 pm

B and B did not like Gene Roddenberry's dream for Trek.. they want ratings and in the process they are destroying the Trek series from the inside out with the fans... Enterprise as a series, if you think about it as an alternate universe or even the mirror universe, then it is great... otherwise, if you look at it in the Trek timelike most of us who watched TOS in the beginning.. Enterprise is a disgrace to the Trek franchise period...

Gene Roddenberry stated.. if it is on the big screen or on TV, it is canon.. and if someone puts something on screen that contradicts a previous episode.. the the Oldest episode is canon since the script writers couldn't do their job in researching older scripts...

as such, TOS canon takes precidence.. then TNG then DS9 then Voyager, then Ent.. since Ent is nothing but contradiction of established canon.. it must be an alternate universe or even the mirror universe if it intends to claim itself as a Trek production...

So that means that Kirk really works for the UESPA, and all later episodes are wrong?

Just be careful how that could be intrepreted, because it can come back to bite you in the ass. I've had it do that to me several times. Ouch!

Anyway, funny you should mention the Mirror Universe, as ENT is actually going to have a Mirror Universe episode (totally Mirror Universe from Manny's interviews) by the end of the season. Isn't Coto...creative.

Basically, I take ENT into what I term as "slective canon," as in acknowledge the exsistence of Archer, the NX-01 (it's exsistence, not all of it's design features

), and Earth Starfleet and the Vulcans, Andorians etc. But, I leave out all the bullsh*t that's cropped up, from Season 1 onward (yes, even the "beloved" Season 4, the season where Manny rewrites TOS scripts out the wazoo, and makes up insane garbage like "The Augments" by cutting and pasting different shows and movies together...) This way, I can have the Eugenics Wars and the DY-100 either before or as WWIII, and everybody else can keep eating the reprocessed garbage from VOY and ENT...

Chris Johnson · « **Reply #64 on:** December 30, 2004, 10:28:28 pm »

I think canon is overhyped most of the time. Whilst I took most canonical info into consideration, I spitted out a big huge chunk of the more-recent stuff, and may spit out even more. I don't know how to say this, but let's face it: We overhype our interest in Trek too much, so much so in fact that sometimes I feel some stuff are being dissed and shunned because it's not canon. We all envision Trek differently, so our views clash. Some like it for the space ships and kitbashing their own fancy good looking ships. Some like it for what it was by heart, especially as what Gene wanted it to be. Lets take some ship envisionment for example: Whilst I like the Constitution-class, I figured it was made in the 2240s, not the 2210s. Atrahasis would disagree and counter with his view. We all have a view that is right in our own heads, but we must respect the opinions of others. Like how people think DS9 is better because of all the space action, and believe the Sovereign-class is best because of how cool-looking it is and how it's armed to the teeth. I respect that, but I think TOS or TNG was better due to Gene's influence and visions of both series.

Maybe it's just me, but my point is sometimes I feel some openly-expressed views on Trek can get shunned for the most rediculous reasons, and I just think if it is due to canon policy being popular, then why not shun canon and have our own views of Trek?

(Also, keep in mind I may have not worded what I wanted to say exactly, but consider this close enough.)

FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC · « **Reply #65 on:** December 31, 2004, 12:25:34 am »

Very nicely done indeed

FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC · « **Reply #66 on:** December 31, 2004, 12:32:14 am »

I would take the Animated Series as more 'canon' than the Enterprise series. With any luch, some weird time anomaly will occur at the end of the series that renders everything in the series as part of some other timeline. Although, the Eugenics Wars were also very notably missing from Voyager as well, contradicting not just TOS but STII as well. It could be argued that the Eugenics Wars were not in the part of the world that Janeway and crew visited at the time though.

Age · « **Reply #67 on:** December 31, 2004, 03:20:23 am »

Well this OT so I will but what I said back in and that is I think it would have been better to have Shatner, Nimoy and Majel as Producer of Trek instead of B&B look at what they have done to Trek.I watch Enterprise only for it being scfi and entertianment put it all side Andromeda and look out.What is with Janeway in this anyway and the best out of the TNG series I like is DS9 ?

TheStressPuppy · « **Reply #68 on:** December 31, 2004, 11:25:40 am »

EDIT: After some thinking I regret some words i posted here so i deleted them and apologise to all.

Chris Johnson · « **Reply #69 on:** December 31, 2004, 12:24:52 pm »

TSP, I apologize for letting things get out of hand. I think it's my fault things got this way. In my opinion, whether it's canon or not about anything (at this moment) is silly stuff. Star Trek is entertainment, although not mindless. It serves to give us a world to play around with and think about, although arguing whether things are official or not can get silly, and I think it has gotten out of hand here. For that, I apologize. You've done wonders, TSP, and I feel really sorry for what's happened.

TheStressPuppy · « **Reply #70 on:** December 31, 2004, 02:41:05 pm »

Don't sweat it Chris I'm cool with you.

My apologies for the rant above. I just think discussions like that should be taken out of a modellers work in progress thread, and posted ether in general discussion, or somewhere else. I guess I'm somewhat to blame too for posting a WIP in the general modeller board instead of the WIP board. I wont make that same mistake again.

Where I'm going with this is that its not at all fair to the artist trying to display his, or her works for the community to see when discussions like the phantom "canon" registry's breaks out. It turns the thread into a farce. It also has the potential to start flame attacks. We do not need that.

I see now that a thread dedicated to the phantom registry's has been started. So i ask all who posted here please ether delete, or move your post over to that thread. TIA

Again sorry for blowing my stack, but hey, I'm a Stress Puppy remember

Pestalence_XC · « **Reply #71 on:** December 31, 2004, 06:54:54 pm »

StressPuppy.. I posted it here because you stated you were a reference Nazi.. as such, since you were using multiple references, i went to the horses mouth for registries in order to help you get a valid listing... do I have all hull registries.. no.. Paramount doesn't even have that, but i did get the one's that they claim as canon and are canon per TOS episodes and maybe 1 or 2 from DS9 and TNG.. I agree with you that if the registry or ship was on screen, then it is canon.. as such, that is why I listed only canon TOS Connie's per TOS episodes and Paramount on the Registries for CA's without names on screen... My apologies if you think it was a hijack.. it was not.. it was a reference source for you to look in to since you were doing so much research in the TOS Connie hull.. IMHO it was totally relavant to the ship you released.. as such, I humbly apologize if you took my posting out of context.. if you wish, I will edit this thread and remove all postings from mine on hull registries on downward.. it was not meant to be a bash or a hijack.. just a reference source on hull registries as canonized by Paramount and TOS films. It was an attempt to help you out. again my apologies. If you need canon references, i can contact Paramount and get the screen writes which contains all the hull registries and ship names (if written for the episode) directly from them as a pure canon reference. all I was doing was trying to give you a little help since people argued over hull registry classification in your first 2 threads. I posted this a long time ago about hull classification.. as seen on the back wall next to the turbolift is the dedication plaque for the Enterprise.. it is not a Constitution class.. that is FJ's classification (Non Canon) as such the misconception that all hull registries for the CA should be NCC-17**.. in reality the ship is classified as a "Starship Class" Spaceship as it was so described in "The Cage". The ships were given classification according to Duty Role and not First of Line. This explains why a lot of the TOS canon registries for the CA's were below NCC-17**.. The Constitution may not have been the first ship of the line, but instead it may have had more fame than a lot of TOS CA's. maybe even more than the Enterprise.. as such, the hull line was honorably nicknamed "Constitution Class" by FJ, fans and TNG, however the "Starship Class" Spaceship is the canon reference for the CA hull as seen on screen in almost every on ship episode of TOS. Also if you look into the History of the CA Hull with Gene's notes and Paramount.. the "12" as people call them are the first 12 ships to be assigned a 5 year mission in deep space.. it does not mean that only 12 were built... out of the 12 that went to Deep Space, the U.S.S. Enterprise was the first Starship to return that completed the mission (maybe not the only to return). Again I apologize for making you think it was a hijack.. it was just an attempt to give help.

Lord Schtupp · « **Reply #72 on:** December 31, 2004, 07:17:35 pm »

I certainly would not have participated in a thread that I thought was meandering pointlessly.

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