Topic: Holy SFB Scenarios batman!

[KHH Jakle]

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163348345.0.html

I am not sure if any of you recall this, but at one point waaay back around cycle one, I was talking about making a 'ladder' that scored matches ala SFB Scenario rules. 

Now, PBR simulates historical ship deployments and restricts how ships are selected - but when the matches were played out, you still had the big, fight to the death slugfest, same as it ever was.

Now, in SFB, the winner's of a match were determined by a point system that took the BPV's of the ships involved and the enemy scored points based on different percentages based on the results of that battle (whether that ship was destroyed, crippled, disengaged, captured).   The difference in points gave you different levels of victory - Marginal, Tactical, Decisive, whatever.  So, in theory, you could have a battle and find you are driven off the map - but still garner maybe a marginal victory because you did more damage to the enemy than they to you.

Also, each individual ships captain has the option of augmenting his ship by up to 20% (I think) of it's stock BPV by purchasing what are called 'Commander's Options'.  So let's say I buy a Fed DD (that's about 100 I guess).  I could spend an additional 20 BPV on extras (say, 5 T-Bombs). 

Now, the trick with this system is that for every point of total BPV your force is higher than your opponents, then they earn that in points right from the get go.  So lets say that fed takes it's full 20 pts, yet I in my F5C don't take any - I start the match with 24 points earned (F5C being a 96 bpv ship). 

Now, to the point - what made adapting this to SFC impossible was that you couldn't get accurate post battle reporting on individual ships in a multip ship battle.  Whether a ship was crippled or not was guess work (in some cases it can be reasonably acertained - but it needs to be 100% certain in ALL cases to make a viable system)

After sitting in the General Forums for a month now, I just this morning noted Centauri Vaughan's creation - that aside from some other neat functions like being able to set each ships start location at battle start - also gived DETAILED post battle reporting for all ships involved, to include individual damage values.  This means that there is now the possiblity to play out battles in SFC and score them as SFB scenarios - to include the use of Commander's options.

Nothing may ever come of this.  In my opinion, this tool, coupled with PBR and a translation of SFB's general Scenario rules, would provide the apex of SFC gaming.  Battles will become 3 dimentional (figuratively ), in that it is no longer a matter of the absolute destruction of your enemy, but rather a whole host of tactical considerations, with the ultimate point being to perform in such a way to out score your opponent - and while destroyting them will most often get the job done, hitting hard then running away may actually award a victory as well.

[GDA-Kel]

I downloaded this a while ago and have been playing with it off and on for the past month or so.  What I really like about this is the ability to create D2-like missions for multi-player.  I've been trying to think of a way to use this in the league somehow.  For example, just as a change of pace, how about having to fly required missions against all divisional opponents?  Suppose you had to fly a convoy raid/defense and a starbase assault/defense while still using variable TBPV and eras?  Ship combos and tactics would certainly change. 

Not sure what Jakle means by 'SFB Scenarios.'  Does this mean how a fleet does in one battle against one opponent means something in the next battle against an entirely different opponent?
       

[KHH Jakle]

I downloaded this a while ago and have been playing with it off and on for the past month or so.  What I really like about this is the ability to create D2-like missions for multi-player.  I've been trying to think of a way to use this in the league somehow.  For example, just as a change of pace, how about having to fly required missions against all divisional opponents?  Suppose you had to fly a convoy raid/defense and a starbase assault/defense while still using variable TBPV and eras?  Ship combos and tactics would certainly change. 

Not sure what Jakle means by 'SFB Scenarios.'  Does this mean how a fleet does in one battle against one opponent means something in the next battle against an entirely different opponent?
       

What I mean is that SFB scenarios had more complexity to them when determining winners and losers.  The games can still be individual isolated battles.

In our current matches, the winner is the team that destroys all of their opponents ships.  In SFB, there are varying degrees of vicotory and defeat:  Decisive Victory/Defeat, Tactical Victory/Defeat, Marginal Victory/Defeat - something like that.  If I remember correctly (I am at work so I can't just look it up), you earn points based on the BPV of your opponents and their final dispostion.  If they were crippled, 30%, Destroyed 50%, Disengaged, 25%.  Capturing is a factor too - but from what I understand, there is no way to enable PvP capture in MP games outside of D2.  Then based on your final score relative to your opponents will determine your level of victory - or defeat.

It has the potential to create a different kind of tactical game:  If your opponent takes 1 high BPV target and 2 low BPV targets, you can possibly score a victory by crippling or destorying that one ship - then disengaging off the map. 

In short, what this tool does is create an entirely new type of match - and makes it relatively easy to do it.  Is it more involved than the type of game we play now - but I think the gameplay sounds like a richer experience.

your statment that it can create D2-like missions is accurate on a couple levels - not just throwing in Bases or whatever, but creating a set up where victory is not as simple as being the last team standing.

I'll see if I can write something up that would provide a literal example of what could be done.

[Dfly]

I have a copy of an Add-on file for the OP game which allows captures of ships, like in the single player campaigns.  It is not a big file, and works.  Only drawback is that unless you truly capture the ship quickly, the opponent can still seflf-destruct it if he feels he will lose the ship.  I imagine if 3 ships all boarded at the same time onto one, you may actually take it over fast enough to avoid the SD>,.

[KHH Jakle]

Really?  send it to me - I'd like to play with it a little: jakle@comcast.net

[KHH Jakle]

Ok - here is a quick down and dirty translation of SFB's S2.0 'Victory Conditions'

Each individual ship has it's BPV, or more accurately it's Gross Adjusted BPV (GABPV).  This includes it's Base cost, + drone speed upgrades and fighters.  (Fighters actually are counted seperately, but I don't know how we could do that with SFC, so for right now, I'll say they are counted in.)  You'll notice that things like Marines, T-Bombs are not counted as part of the GABPV.

To determin Victory results, you use the following scale, the percentage being the percentage of a specific's ships GABPV:

Score any internal damage: 10%
Force to Disengage: 25%
Cripple: 50%
Destroy: 100%
Capture: 200%

You would use the highest final condition.  If you did 10 internals and then they disengaged, you don't get 10%+25%, just 25%.  A cripple would mean the ship was reduced to less than or equal to 50% health (this is one area where Centauri Vaughns utility becomes handy)

When the Battle is concluded, each side totals up their points.  To determine their victory/defeat level, they divide their score by their opponents and convert it to a percentage.  The following scale is then consulted:

500%+ Astounding Victory
300% - 499% Decisive VIctory
200% - 299% Substantive Victory
150%  199% Tactical Victory
110% - 149% Marginal Victory
91% - 109% Draw
67% - 90% Marginal Defeat
50% - 66% Tactical Defeat
33% - 49% Brutal Defeat
20% - 32% Crushing Defeat
- 19% Devastating Defeat

Now, you'll note that traditional SFC 'extras' aren't tallied as part of the equation, at least in terms of the scoring based on damaged/destroyed.  One impact this can have is, lets say you are playing a 365 TBPV match, and based on your ship selections - after factoring in drone and figher purchases - your GABPV is 347.  Your Opponent, a different race with different possibilites, hits the full 365.  Using 'S2', the 347 team starts the game with 18 points in the Victory Points bank (the difference between their GABPV and their opponent).    It doesn't matter if the 347 team bought 3 T-bombs to bring them up to 359.  Those purchases aren't factored into the GABPV.  This 18 would be added to whatever they score in the battle ahead.

Where do 'extras' fall?  Well, there is a nifty thing called 'Commander's Options'.  This allows each individual ship to purchase up to 20% of their base BPV (before you buy fighers, drones - anything) to buy 'extras'.  So a D5 at 110 could buy 22 BPV worth of extras.

So again, take that first example.  Lets say my 347 is made up of a D5C and 2x D5.  So lets say I want to go full bore and purchase 5 T-bombs each for the 2 D5's and 3 T-bombs and 2 Repair for the D5C.  That's 65 pts in comanderd options for a total of 412.  If their opponents upgrade only up to 400, then now the Klingons opponents start the match with 12 points in the 'bank' before the match starts.


This is all a fairly direct translation.  I am not saying it's great as is.  But it can be made more straight forward.  Ultimately, I think it provides a framework to better 'score' performance in matches.  To what end...I don't know. 

We could actually use this as is very informally to score League matches right now - I meant, keep the league the same, but after a given game is over, score it out and see what the results would be. Of course, without Centauri Vaughan's utility, you'd have to take the other teams word as to whether you crippled one of their ships or not - but for those good natured teams that are interested, you could do it.  And then perhaps bring feedback here....

[Dfly]

Sent you the file Jakle.  it was actually designed for SFC2, but it should be fine with OP(i hope).  meet me online some time and we can try it out.   this is Monday, I will keep eye out for you tonight and Tuesday.

[KHH Jakle]

actually, I don't think it will work.  the engines are different. worth a try anyway