Topic: The PPD Rule

[FPF-Bach]

The problem I see here is that the fighters most likely don't know the differance between a scatter pack, a suicide or an admin shuttle.  So your can't make it differentiate betweem them...therefore the shuttles either go after all fighter and shuttle sized targets or disregard them completely.  I'd just assume have the scatter packs shot down for me...

[Kroma BaSyl]

The problem I see here is that the fighters most likely don't know the differance between a scatter pack, a suicide or an admin shuttle.  So your can't make it differentiate betweem them...therefore the shuttles either go after all fighter and shuttle sized targets or disregard them completely.  I'd just assume have the scatter packs shot down for me...

Actually, that isn't really even the problem. It probably should target all shuttles equally, and as a priority for targeting. What is a problem is that the dumb AI will waste the full alpha strike from a fighter group on a target that only requires a single phaser or 2 to kill. If the fighter AI could be patched to only fire enough weapons to kill it's new target (the shuttle) it would be cool IMO. The fighter AI should basically treat a shuttle like it was a drone, which is to say a PD target. This also goes for the way the AI fires on fighter groups, since an alpha from another fighter or PF is also largely wasted against a fighter group since a single volley can only ever kill a single fighter in the group. Thus the AI sould also be patched to Miazi (sp?) fighter groups.

[762_XC]

I just learned something new! Bug or tactic though?

Tactic. It ain't a bug, just the target priortity.

thats just it ADMIN shuttles should not be a target priorty it should be the target you set.

I agree, but that is no different than the fact that the fighters/PFs target other fighters/PF as a priority over their set target as well. Thus I don't think a rule ought to be created for this particular target priority un-intended consequence anymore than any other.

There are three huge reasons it's different:

1) Admin shuttles are harmless and should be ignored
2) Admin shuttles cost 1 BPV
3) At least one fleet is already exploiting this bug to nullify a major part of Hydrans' firepower

This HAS to be addressed.

[FPF-Bach]

I just learned something new! Bug or tactic though?

Tactic. It ain't a bug, just the target priortity.

thats just it ADMIN shuttles should not be a target priorty it should be the target you set.

I agree, but that is no different than the fact that the fighters/PFs target other fighters/PF as a priority over their set target as well. Thus I don't think a rule ought to be created for this particular target priority un-intended consequence anymore than any other.

There are three huge reasons it's different:

1) Admin shuttles are harmless and should be ignored
2) Admin shuttles cost 1 BPV
3) At least one fleet is already exploiting this bug to nullify a major part of Hydrans' firepower

This HAS to be addressed.

Yes, but the real question is, out there in space is there a map edge you can actually be pushed off?  Didn't think so, this bug should be fixed as well.

[FPF-DieHard]

Question:   is there ANY reason to EVER launch an admin shuttle in combat for any reason OTHER that to distract AI?

[Green]

Yes, but the real question is, out there in space is there a map edge you can actually be pushed off?  Didn't think so, this bug should be fixed as well.

Shuttles are fighters (crappy fighters I admit) but I doubt the code can be changed to adjust fire on them w/o also adjusting fire on all fighters.  As for me, I'd like to keep a nice alpha going on a Caveat III squadron, so I really wouldn't want to see a change in the code (if ever possible).  Shuttles are a tactic that need to be overcome by a different tactic.  Not necessarily a rule change.

As for being dragged off of a map and thrown out of the game <cough> Bach <cough> ... there already is a tactic.  Its called "repel" <snicker>

[762_XC]

Question:   is there ANY reason to EVER launch an admin shuttle in combat for any reason OTHER that to distract AI?

Only one, which I have seen used maybe a half dozen times in my entire SFC career: to soak up ESG.

[762_XC]

I just learned something new! Bug or tactic though?

Tactic. It ain't a bug, just the target priortity.

thats just it ADMIN shuttles should not be a target priorty it should be the target you set.

I agree, but that is no different than the fact that the fighters/PFs target other fighters/PF as a priority over their set target as well. Thus I don't think a rule ought to be created for this particular target priority un-intended consequence anymore than any other.

There are three huge reasons it's different:

1) Admin shuttles are harmless and should be ignored
2) Admin shuttles cost 1 BPV
3) At least one fleet is already exploiting this bug to nullify a major part of Hydrans' firepower

This HAS to be addressed.

Yes, but the real question is, out there in space is there a map edge you can actually be pushed off?  Didn't think so, this bug should be fixed as well.

So propose a rule to make it illegal for next cycle.

You might want to do it in a new thread though, so it gets the discussion it deserves.

[Nomad]

Question:   is there ANY reason to EVER launch an admin shuttle in combat for any reason OTHER that to distract AI?

Yes, you can use it to draw out Plasma I. (If you set plasma I to defensive)


Yes it sucks that the fighters shoot at the admin shuttle. But putting a rule againt it is making this league too complicated. Just live with it.

[762_XC]

Question:   is there ANY reason to EVER launch an admin shuttle in combat for any reason OTHER that to distract AI?

Yes, you can use it to draw out Plasma I. (If you set plasma I to defensive)

Also a bug exploit, and should be banned every bit as much.

Yes it sucks that the fighters shoot at the admin shuttle. But putting a rule againt it is making this league too complicated.

No it isn't.

Just live with it.

No.

[Hexx]

Actually I've used admin shuttles to soak up enemy fire as the player doesn't know if it's a SS
or not, so he shoots it or (if I'm really lucky) veers off a bit and stops shooting up my ship.
I've also dropped a regular admin shuttle out first so it gets shot and lets a SS get through.

[FPF-Bach]

Yes, but the real question is, out there in space is there a map edge you can actually be pushed off?  Didn't think so, this bug should be fixed as well.

Shuttles are fighters (crappy fighters I admit) but I doubt the code can be changed to adjust fire on them w/o also adjusting fire on all fighters.  As for me, I'd like to keep a nice alpha going on a Caveat III squadron, so I really wouldn't want to see a change in the code (if ever possible).  Shuttles are a tactic that need to be overcome by a different tactic.  Not necessarily a rule change.

As for being dragged off of a map and thrown out of the game <cough> Bach <cough> ... there already is a tactic.  Its called "repel" <snicker>

Bastard 

[Dfly]

Question:   is there ANY reason to EVER launch an admin shuttle in combat for any reason OTHER that to distract AI?

Yes, you can use it to draw out Plasma I. (If you set plasma I to defensive)

Also a bug exploit, and should be banned every bit as much.

Yes it sucks that the fighters shoot at the admin shuttle. But putting a rule againt it is making this league too complicated.

No it isn't.

I agree in part that yes it seems like a waste of firepower for a fighter group to take out a shuttle, but in no way do I beleive it is  a BUG.  A bug in a game implies that there is a part of the game that works not just to some advantage(or else PPD would be elliminated as an example) but it works contrary to the actual setup and rules of the actual game.  There is no rule that says you cant use too many weapons to kill something(such as alphastriking your opponent with no hull and 4 power left), so no actual rule broken.  To ban what you suggest is like saying we should be banning perhaps sp shuttles, as they are dangerous if they get to break before being destroyed.

TSC uses admin shuttles and has seen them used against us in many occasions.  We have had them launched vs us when we are in hot persuit.  The enemy hopes we waste phasers on them, thus using up our phasers and power while saving his butt.  He also hopes that we may think it an SS and try to sidestep it if we dont shoot.  By the same token, fleets would drop and admin in hopes of it tying up a fighter group if only for a few seconds.  I know we would if we had to just to give us a bit of time to finish loading weapons or whatever was needed.  We have used admins to help take off some of the sting of the ESG overrun, and while having the admin out there long enough ahead of time, we actually get a few phaser3 shots at the incoming ship to boot.  Dont forget they actually can be WW and a WW can stop an alpha strike of plasmas.  Talk about overkill, and 3 turns to reload the plasmas too. So the thought of banning shuttle use because they draw firepower well, seems like cutting off your arm because you have a sliver in your finger, just a tad overkill. 

Just live with it.

No.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Question:   is there ANY reason to EVER launch an admin shuttle in combat for any reason OTHER that to distract AI?

Only one, which I have seen used maybe a half dozen times in my entire SFC career: to soak up ESG.

#2 for point defense against drones.
#3 to cause a chasing opponet to break chase for fear it is a SS.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Shuttles are fighters (crappy fighters I admit) but I doubt the code can be changed to adjust fire on them w/o also adjusting fire on all fighters.  As for me, I'd like to keep a nice alpha going on a Caveat III squadron, so I really wouldn't want to see a change in the code (if ever possible). 

You are correct that they are simply treated as fighters, and that any "quick" code change would end up effecting the AIs reaction to both the shuttles and fighters. However, I would prefer that the AI not unload an alpha at a fighter group anymore than at a shuttle. If the AI could be changed to only fire the appropriate amount of weapons at the fighter that would be better. Fighter groups require volleys to kill as alpha strikes only ever kill a single fighter in the group regardless of the total damage they do.

[Nomad]

Question:   is there ANY reason to EVER launch an admin shuttle in combat for any reason OTHER that to distract AI?

Yes, you can use it to draw out Plasma I. (If you set plasma I to defensive)

Also a bug exploit, and should be banned every bit as much.

Yes it sucks that the fighters shoot at the admin shuttle. But putting a rule againt it is making this league too complicated.

No it isn't.

Just live with it.

No.

Admin shuttle is considered a fighter.
Defensive plasma I fires automatically at fighters.

If you don't want the plasma I to fire don't set it as defensive.

I don't see the bug here.
The system is working exactly as documented.

[FPF-Bach]

Fighter groups require volleys to kill as alpha strikes only ever kill a single fighter in the group regardless of the total damage they do.

I thought this was fixed in a patch and that damage now rolls over to each fighter in line...?

Can somebody verify this..

[KBF-Butcher]

I dont think it worths a reply at this "bug exploit" ,and i find all these a waste of time.
I think its time to draw a line here and agree to let the league as it is.No more rules change and new regulations that will make the league more complicated than it already is.
This tactic was always legal in gsa cause is just a tactic like many other similar shuttle tactics.
And most of all none ever claimed this tactic cheese.

U guys r able to bring(using PBR), in mid for example, ship combos with amazing firepower :
2 DG+:4hellbores 2phaserg 2phaser1 4phaser2 and 43power!!!,each
+ 1 LGE+(dread):3hell 2fussion 7phaser1
+ 14hornet2!!!  
And when u loose u come and claim the shuttle tactic cheese??? then i feel like i already missed GT...

[Kroma BaSyl]

Fighter groups require volleys to kill as alpha strikes only ever kill a single fighter in the group regardless of the total damage they do.

I thought this was fixed in a patch and that damage now rolls over to each fighter in line...?

Can somebody verify this..

I will test it out tonight to verify.

[KHH Jakle]

Bump.  After flying ISC for 1/2 a cycle, I believe this can be revisited.

So you believe the current rule is not balanced?  What other option do you propose in leu of the current 4 PPD max per squadron rule? 

On another note, I hope this is not at all related to your (FPF) handing us (GDA) our lunch in our last match.  In the two games you won, you flew flawlessly and we did not.  From a competitive standpoint, those two games were the Marianas Turkey Shoot all over again.  However, it had as much to do with how both teams flew as what ships were flown IMHO. 

Of course, I do not know how competitive your other matches have been.

One PPD ship per 3, last cycle had it right.  The ISC plasma ships are great so anyone bitching about getting nerfed is full of sh*t.  This is escpecially true with many of the new editions in OP+ 4, have you seen the War Cruiser and the CATZ yet?

I flew the CLY in the second battle and I think I scored the most damage on you guys by being a real sneaky bastard with my S-torps. 

645 to 2 internals in the 750 advaced match.  I'm sorry, we're not THAT good 

You guys need to get back to the topic an make a whole new thread about shuttle use issues.

DH's was the first to bring up revisiting this, and the last to post an opinion on it (above)