Topic: enterprise question

[Don Karnage]

in season 1 episode 14 sleeping dogs the crew of the enterprise where aboard a klingon ship and look at the weapon conssole and read that the ship have photon torpedo, i remember a episode when the battle a bird of prey and shot a photon torpedo at the klingon ship, the klingon didn't know what it was the says it was a a mater antimater torpedo ( a photon torpedo) how can teh don't know about photon torpedo since the have that on there ship?, i don't know what episode the enterprise what equiped with photon torpedo but it was later in the series but its weird that the klingon didn't know about that since the have photon torpedo on there ship?? ??? ???

[Nemesis]

The Romulan ship had a cloak as well.  Why did Kirk act surprised when the Romulan's had  a cloak in Balance of Terror? 

Hoshi had access to the Vulcan database, presumably including the Vulcan's own language archives, why could she only translate Romulan with extreme difficulty?   It should have been suspiciously simple with many crosslinks to Vulcan languages.

Answer: Different timeline.  This is Berman and Braga time not Trek Time.

[Alidar Jarok]

That's quite a stretch really.  To answer your question, Enterprise has "Photonic" topedoes (yeah, the name is extremely stupid).  So, when they fired them at the Klingon ship, the Klingons knew it was some kind of anti-matter weapon (like a Photon Torpedo is), but didn't know the exact type (Photonic).

The Romulan language question is simple, either the Romulans changed their language when they left Vulcan, or the Vulcans changed their language with the reformation, or both.  In Gambit, Picard clearly says that the artifacts he was working with has an alphabet more consistant with early Vulcan than early Romulan.  Aside from that, I can't imagine anyone translating a language without extreme difficulty.

The cloak thing had been admited as a mistake.  They should have known better, but they messed up.  The only explanation I can think of right now was the exact phrase used by Spock (Practical invisibility).  The series has depicted an evolution of technologies where one side creates a cloaking technology, and the other side finds a counter-measure (Geordie's Tachyon field, Kirk stealing the cloak to examine it better, etc.).  It is possible that this Romulan cloak is not even close to practical by the 23rd Century, and the outpost's sensors should have been able to easily see through it (and they couldn't understand why they weren't able to).  It might be a stretch, but it's better than thinking Kirk didn't know about Romulan technology 100 years ago (which doesn't sound like a popular idea).

Here's another thought, the Treaty of Algeron was mentioned by Data (in the Defector) to have established the Neutral Zone, which was created at the end of the Romulan War.  In "The Pegasus", the Treaty of Algeron was said to specifically prohibit the Federation from using cloaks, which would suggest that cloaks could exist during the Romulan War.

My major complaint with the Romulan Cloak in Minefield wasn't the fact that they had it, but how it was used.  In Balance of Terror, the cloak was very power intensive, and was part of the reason their mission failed (they ran out of power).  But, in Minefield, it was used for no reason at all, which suggests power wasn't a concern.

[SSCF-LeRoy]

in season 1 episode 14 sleeping dogs the crew of the enterprise where aboard a klingon ship and look at the weapon conssole and read that the ship have photon torpedo, i remember a episode when the battle a bird of prey and shot a photon torpedo at the klingon ship, the klingon didn't know what it was the says it was a a mater antimater torpedo ( a photon torpedo) how can teh don't know about photon torpedo since the have that on there ship?, i don't know what episode the enterprise what equiped with photon torpedo but it was later in the series but its weird that the klingon didn't know about that since the have photon torpedo on there ship?? ??? ???

The Klingons were surprised when the Enterprise started firing photons because they were unaware that she had been refitted with improved armor (which also took them by surprise) and photon torpedoes.

[Alidar Jarok]

^^^

Much better answer than my needlessly long one

[Nemesis]

The Romulan language question is simple, either the Romulans changed their language when they left Vulcan, or the Vulcans changed their language with the reformation, or both.  In Gambit, Picard clearly says that the artifacts he was working with has an alphabet more consistant with early Vulcan than early Romulan.  Aside from that, I can't imagine anyone translating a language without extreme difficulty.

Changed so far that none of the Vulcan records would show links?  I think that unlikely.  Any evolution of the Romulan language would have been from a Vulcan base language and have resulted in structural similarities and common root words. 

Languages totally unrelated to ones in the databank Hoshi usually translates next to immediately.  A language derived from a language in the Database should be immediately translated.

Add in the Vulcan gathering of knowledge of potentially dangerous alien races and the fact that they knew of the Romulans, they should have collected samples of Romulan communications and detected the linguistic links long before Enterprise.  Only if the Vulcans had done so and edited the data in the database to remove such things would Hoshi's difficulties even begin to make sense.  Even then the structural elements could not have been removed.  Hoshi or other Earth experts should noticed the editing.

The only languages Hoshi has trouble with are those based on truely alien thought processes and Romulan.  That is not reasonable in my opinion.  Romulan thought processes as illustrated in TOS and TNG are close enough to human that we can easily understand why they do things even when we disagree with it.  That marks them as too close to be difficult for Hoshi to understand.

The cloak thing had been admited as a mistake.  They should have known better, but they messed up.  The only explanation I can think of right now was the exact phrase used by Spock (Practical invisibility).  The series has depicted an evolution of technologies where one side creates a cloaking technology, and the other side finds a counter-measure (Geordie's Tachyon field, Kirk stealing the cloak to examine it better, etc.).  It is possible that this Romulan cloak is not even close to practical by the 23rd Century, and the outpost's sensors should have been able to easily see through it (and they couldn't understand why they weren't able to).  It might be a stretch, but it's better than thinking Kirk didn't know about Romulan technology 100 years ago (which doesn't sound like a popular idea).

I find that pretty weak.  Even if current sensors could see through the old cloak the fact that a cloak had been done should have been referenced.  It's been a while since I saw the episode but as I recall they acted as if the whole cloaking concept was something never before done and thought impossible.   

Here's another thought, the Treaty of Algeron was mentioned by Data (in the Defector) to have established the Neutral Zone, which was created at the end of the Romulan War.  In "The Pegasus", the Treaty of Algeron was said to specifically prohibit the Federation from using cloaks, which would suggest that cloaks could exist during the Romulan War.

The Treaty of Algernon was signed in 2311 (according to the Pegasus episode) far after the Earth - Romulan war (pre Federation).  Presumably it refined the Neutral Zone borders to resolve disputes and added the no Federation Cloaks section.

My major complaint with the Romulan Cloak in Minefield wasn't the fact that they had it, but how it was used.  In Balance of Terror, the cloak was very power intensive, and was part of the reason their mission failed (they ran out of power).  But, in Minefield, it was used for no reason at all, which suggests power wasn't a concern.

That and the fact that they were operating at very long range (as I recall).  Presumably the Romulans in Enterprise were operating from a nearby base (doing minefiled maintenance on a claimed planet).  It could also be argued that later technologies used in the ships are harder to cloak.  For example an old Mosquito fighter/bomber (plywood construction  WWII) is already closer to radar invisible than a modern metal plane.  A Romulan style cloak should take far less power to neutralize the lower "sensor visibility" of the Mosquito than the metal plane. 

The easiest resolution in my opinion is that this is an alternate universe.  It's very basis differs from TOS in the fact that it is not Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri as it was when Kirk met the man. 

[Stylsy]

In The Expanse, the Klingon officer said "Antimatter Warheads" which as LeRoy said shocked the Klingon. Photon Torpedo is just a name, but the officer reported the type of weapon which had been fired.

I like this explanation about the cloak - http://www.starfleetcom.net/misc6.htm

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I find that pretty weak.  Even if current sensors could see through the old cloak the fact that a cloak had been done should have been referenced.  It's been a while since I saw the episode but as I recall they acted as if the whole cloaking concept was something never before done and thought impossible.   

I don't understand why Kirk and company were even remotely surprised by a cloak.  According to Enterprise, everyone and their brother has a cloaking device.
*Pointy-eared people.
*Oatmeal-faced people.
*Wierd aliens with no water.
*Pre-federation crew with captured pods.
*Tucker's left hand.

Yes sir.  Evvvvvvverybody has a cloak.

-S'Cipio

[SSCF-LeRoy]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Balance of Terror the first work of science fiction to depict cloaking technology? If so, then the only reason why Kirk and crew were caught off guard was because the Star Trek writers had just thought of it themselves

[Don Karnage]

something i was wondering in voyage the episode when the doctor received the mobile emiter.r, when the find them self in the past earth why did the says the where stranded in the past and thinking of looking for a place to stay, as i recall kirk with the constitution class and a bop was able to go into the past and back to hi era by going around the sun at warp 9 and doing something Else after, so why is it that janeway says we are stranded in the past, why don't you go around the sun and do what kirk have done many time?, voyager is faster and stronger that a constitution class and bop so why the seem to have a problem about Ben stuck in the past?

[EmeraldEdge]

The quick answer could be that Janeway is no Kirk, Tuvok is no Spock, and on down the line.

Now, you may be saying "but hey, how come Kirk and crew didn't just teach the process to Starfleet and it should have become common teaching in the academy".   Well, it is a very dangerous thing to be able to do, and perhaps Starfleet made it top secret, or maybe Kirk and company just wouldn't tell how to do it.

Enterprise has far too inconsistant with TOS/TMP, there is just some stuff that is really out of whack.   I believe it's because B&B don't really care that much, they just want to sell their provacative sex and time travel stories and collect their check.   If they really cared they would be a lot more careful with the product they are in charge of.  I think this is really unfortunate because this is probably one of the best casts since TOS, imo. 

[Nemesis]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Balance of Terror the first work of science fiction to depict cloaking technology? If so, then the only reason why Kirk and crew were caught off guard was because the Star Trek writers had just thought of it themselves

E.E. "Doc" Smith had it in the Lensmen Series (Published in the 1950's I believe).  They were referred to as "detector nullifiers".  They did not actually make the ship invisible just made it undetectable outside of optical and magnetic sensors. 

John W. Campell  had invisible craft in his "The Black Star Passes" and other novels in that series.  1940's or 1950's.

Just two off the top of my head.  Hollywood SciFi is always a decade or two behind the novels and magazines.

[Firehawk]

something i was wondering in voyage the episode when the doctor received the mobile emiter.r, when the find them self in the past earth why did the says the where stranded in the past and thinking of looking for a place to stay, as i recall kirk with the constitution class and a bop was able to go into the past and back to hi era by going around the sun at warp 9 and doing something Else after, so why is it that janeway says we are stranded in the past, why don't you go around the sun and do what kirk have done many time?, voyager is faster and stronger that a constitution class and bop so why the seem to have a problem about Ben stuck in the past?

The DS9 Millenium trilogy of books goes into an expanation about time travel that might apply to that.  They said that when you travel in time whether forward or backward you do so along something that I can't remember the name of, a feriman(sp?) curve I think it was called.  You can only return to the exact time you left by following that same curve back.  Since Voyager was knock back in time by the time ship then a slingshot around the sun wouldn't return them to the exact time they left. 

Now I seriously doubt that the writers were even thinking about that especially since I think those books came out after that episode.  I would have to agree that Janeway is no Kirk and Tuvok is no Spock and add that Torres is no Scotty

[Alidar Jarok]

The Romulan language question is simple, either the Romulans changed their language when they left Vulcan, or the Vulcans changed their language with the reformation, or both.  In Gambit, Picard clearly says that the artifacts he was working with has an alphabet more consistant with early Vulcan than early Romulan.  Aside from that, I can't imagine anyone translating a language without extreme difficulty.

Changed so far that none of the Vulcan records would show links?  I think that unlikely.  Any evolution of the Romulan language would have been from a Vulcan base language and have resulted in structural similarities and common root words. 

Languages totally unrelated to ones in the databank Hoshi usually translates next to immediately.  A language derived from a language in the Database should be immediately translated.

Add in the Vulcan gathering of knowledge of potentially dangerous alien races and the fact that they knew of the Romulans, they should have collected samples of Romulan communications and detected the linguistic links long before Enterprise.  Only if the Vulcans had done so and edited the data in the database to remove such things would Hoshi's difficulties even begin to make sense.  Even then the structural elements could not have been removed.  Hoshi or other Earth experts should noticed the editing.

The only languages Hoshi has trouble with are those based on truely alien thought processes and Romulan.  That is not reasonable in my opinion.  Romulan thought processes as illustrated in TOS and TNG are close enough to human that we can easily understand why they do things even when we disagree with it.  That marks them as too close to be difficult for Hoshi to understand.

I don't think Klingon are that much different than Humans (there are cultures on this planet who believe/believed the same things Klingons believe), but they had plenty of trouble with the Klingon language in Broken Bow.  I think Vulcan must be a tough language to translate.  T'Pol only speaks English on Enterprise (she said so in Broken Bow when Hoshi said something in Vulcan).  Also, Spock speaks Vulcan in Star Trek II that has subtitles instead (although I think languages are often used for dramatic perposes).

Based on the descriptions of the languages Hoshi used in Broken Bow (don't ask me to repeat it, I have no clue what she exactly said), it really seems most languages have something in common no matter what world you're from (blaim the Progenitors or Sargon's people or something).  I think translating a language within a day would normally be a major accomplishment, but computers (and Hoshi) have to do it within seconds most of the time.  I really think it was done to give Hoshi some lines (although I would be curious how much of a Romulan language they've invented compared to a Klingon one, considering those were the first Romulan words heard since Jolan True in Unification).

The cloak thing had been admited as a mistake.  They should have known better, but they messed up.  The only explanation I can think of right now was the exact phrase used by Spock (Practical invisibility).  The series has depicted an evolution of technologies where one side creates a cloaking technology, and the other side finds a counter-measure (Geordie's Tachyon field, Kirk stealing the cloak to examine it better, etc.).  It is possible that this Romulan cloak is not even close to practical by the 23rd Century, and the outpost's sensors should have been able to easily see through it (and they couldn't understand why they weren't able to).  It might be a stretch, but it's better than thinking Kirk didn't know about Romulan technology 100 years ago (which doesn't sound like a popular idea).

I find that pretty weak.  Even if current sensors could see through the old cloak the fact that a cloak had been done should have been referenced.  It's been a while since I saw the episode but as I recall they acted as if the whole cloaking concept was something never before done and thought impossible.

Kirk (and the outpost people who quickly blew up) said that they didn't understand how it was possible, but Spock quickly explained the theory behind it.

Here's another thought, the Treaty of Algeron was mentioned by Data (in the Defector) to have established the Neutral Zone, which was created at the end of the Romulan War.  In "The Pegasus", the Treaty of Algeron was said to specifically prohibit the Federation from using cloaks, which would suggest that cloaks could exist during the Romulan War.

The Treaty of Algernon was signed in 2311 (according to the Pegasus episode) far after the Earth - Romulan war (pre Federation).  Presumably it refined the Neutral Zone borders to resolve disputes and added the no Federation Cloaks section.

I realize that's probably true, checking through the episode it says that the treaty has ties Federation hands for 60 years

The easiest resolution in my opinion is that this is an alternate universe.  It's very basis differs from TOS in the fact that it is not Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri as it was when Kirk met the man. 

For starters, First Contact did the same.  Second of all, think about it this way.  Without Warp Drive, it would be very difficult to establish a colony on Alpha Centuri.  The Star Trek Chronology assumes that Cochrane discovered warp drive and than went to Alpha Centuri.  This is still possible.  In Future Tense, Archer mentioned that Cochrane disapeared in a ship a long time ago (which is foreshadowing to Metamorphisis).  Aside from that, nothing has been mentioned about Zephram Cochrane's life after he made that speach in 2119.

[Gambler]

What about Wonder Woman with her invisible plane?  Doesn't that count as cloaking? 

[Nemesis]

For starters, First Contact did the same.  Second of all, think about it this way.  Without Warp Drive, it would be very difficult to establish a colony on Alpha Centuri.  The Star Trek Chronology assumes that Cochrane discovered warp drive and than went to Alpha Centuri.  This is still possible.  In Future Tense, Archer mentioned that Cochrane disapeared in a ship a long time ago (which is foreshadowing to Metamorphisis).  Aside from that, nothing has been mentioned about Zephram Cochrane's life after he made that speach in 2119.

First Contact did the same, that was a major flaw that I disliked there too.

The DY100 was capable of carrying a crew to interstellar distances (TOS:Space Seed).  The tech existed to take humans to Alpha Centauri.   A colony or pre-existing human natives could have given birth to Cochrane.  Cochrane should also have been in his 30's at the time First Contact took place.   If he was in his 30's then he had really  abused his body.

[Don Karnage]

What about Wonder Woman with her invisible plane?  Doesn't that count as cloaking? 

LOL that's a good one, well the problem is the plane is invisible but she's not, must be weird to see her siting on a invisible seat

[Don Karnage]

i was looking at the starfleet museum : http://www.starfleet-museum.org/ andlooking at the date from the enterprise, since enterprise take place 150 years before kirk the date on the starfleet museum is not good, so i was wondering how many years before the Daedalus-Class Cruisers and the Asia-Class Cruisers will be made?, but still i find it weird that the enterprise have phaser insterd of laser, worf in tng was saying something about ship having laser not phaser, the episode when a scientist who says he was from the future but was from the past and stolen some stuff on the enterprise.

[Alidar Jarok]

Enterprise has Phase Cannons, which probably work under the same principle.  The biggest difference being that Phasers are much more powerful.  They do this so they can get around Worf's one line, and still not have to deal with the limits or "reality".

[Don Karnage]

ok and another question, in the generic you can see a ship that look like the enterprise but its not the enterprise, it have engine on the back that look like rocket?, do you know what ship it is??