Topic: KCW Rules

[Kroma BaSyl]

Guys and Dolls,

Haven't had the chance to do the HTML markup with the "final" (for now anyways) KCW rules. I have gone ahead and uploaded the word doc with the finalized rules though. They can be downloaded here:

http://mkroll.asta.chicago.il.us/KCW/KCW_Rules.doc

Kroma

PS, will definitely have them up by tomorrow.

[Green]

Kroma.  How about ...

? The challenger must make his/her intentions known via springer chat or through use of the tell command. Honorable combat is said to be issued when acknowledgement is received by either the challengee or a member of the challengee?s house. Players may also by mutual agreement enter into impromptu honorable combat at the beginning of a normal battle; however players are not compelled to accept impromptu honorable combat challenges.

In order to clarify that only impromtu challenges can be turned down w/o penalty.



? All mandatory challenges are to the death, combatants may not withdraw from combat. If a combatant should withdraw from combat, their house will suffer twice the victory point penalty for refusing combat and the combatant will not be considered as having either accepted or refused combat for that day i.e. they can be challenged again immediately after.

What about adding the basic penalty (5) here or referring to the lower section of the rules?

[EmeraldEdge]

Out of curiosity, how are the attempts at taking over the house handled?  GSA?  Last I remember you can't attack members of your own side (unless you are going to t-bomb them to death, or drive them into an asteroid).  I would assume that if it's GSA then you would have to take the same ship as you have on the server?

[Hexx]

Yes, it's in the rules that challenges for leadership are GSA based using the same ships you've got.


XO's are allowed to challenge leaders now...
Of course House leaders are allowed to keep throwing "champions" in the way of the challenger
(Hmmm were the rules written or influenced by anyone who's a primary house leader?
Would you really want to fly for such a cowardly warrior?)

[madelf]

Yes, it's in the rules that challenges for leadership are GSA based using the same ships you've got.


XO's are allowed to challenge leaders now...
Of course House leaders are allowed to keep throwing "champions" in the way of the challenger
(Hmmm were the rules written or influenced by anyone who's a primary house leader?
Would you really want to fly for such a cowardly warrior?)

I will ensure no one dethrones my honorable house leader.  Unless of course Hexx drafts me, in which case he won't survive the first night.

[_SSCF_Hooch]

Out of curiosity, how are the attempts at taking over the house handled?  GSA?  Last I remember you can't attack members of your own side (unless you are going to t-bomb them to death, or drive them into an asteroid).  I would assume that if it's GSA then you would have to take the same ship as you have on the server?

GSA is where they are done.

Hooch

[Corbomite]

Say there is an impromptu challenge and the odd man out follows the rules and sits it out. His/her side loses and they are left with the (more than likely) damaged victor(s). What happens then?

[Kroma BaSyl]

Out of curiosity, how are the attempts at taking over the house handled?  GSA?  Last I remember you can't attack members of your own side (unless you are going to t-bomb them to death, or drive them into an asteroid).  I would assume that if it's GSA then you would have to take the same ship as you have on the server?

The rules clearly spell that out.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Kroma.  How about ...

? The challenger must make his/her intentions known via springer chat or through use of the tell command. Honorable combat is said to be issued when acknowledgement is received by either the challengee or a member of the challengee?s house. Players may also by mutual agreement enter into impromptu honorable combat at the beginning of a normal battle; however players are not compelled to accept impromptu honorable combat challenges.

In order to clarify that only impromtu challenges can be turned down w/o penalty.



? All mandatory challenges are to the death, combatants may not withdraw from combat. If a combatant should withdraw from combat, their house will suffer twice the victory point penalty for refusing combat and the combatant will not be considered as having either accepted or refused combat for that day i.e. they can be challenged again immediately after.

What about adding the basic penalty (5) here or referring to the lower section of the rules?

Both good clarifications will do.

[EmeraldEdge]

Geez, I feel dumb. It looked like I was at the end of the document, and I thought "Well, the rules are bit skimpy and don't spell some stuff out, but OK.". heh.  Something must have gone wrong in the downloading or something because I know the slider was at the bottom.  Yeah, that's it.   Thanks anyway, but it now has the rest in there and it looks a lot more complet.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Twas I who wrote the rules, based on Hooch's original rules. I organised them into logical groups and removed as much redundancy as possible. This is why all the VC points are in the VC section for ease of refernce, rather than have them sprinkled throughout other rules sections or written twice.
I overhauled the challenge rules extensively to make them less restricting, yet still keep the game playable. A house leader that is killed every other day seemed implausible, and in Hooch's original concept, he stated that 'generals lead armies, they do not go into battle', hence the high VC points for the death of their ship. This seemed contradictory with the existing challenge rules, so I took the concept of cha'Dich from the TNG episode "Sins of the Father". thus preserving the leadership role while maintaining the mandatory death rule. This also opened up the challenge system so that anyone could challenge anyone else.
I had actually wanted to use an honour points system, where every pilot had a certain number of honour points which were lost to the victor in combat. Players with no honour then, were worth nothing in a challenge (to make the game playable for weaker PvP players), and other players would get the chance to fight to their heart's content. Honour points would then contribute to VCs and make a kind of a ladder as well. However, some people didnt like the idea citing their was too much bookeeping but had the simplicity of using mathematics instead of a lengthy rule system to acheive the same.
The use of build points is still under consideration, and this may yet be added to the rules.

[EmeraldEdge]

That sounds like a cool system, maybe we'll get a chance to try it out on a future server.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Just wondering as a late era server we will have 3rd gen ftrs and fast drones, would these cause a problem as far as BPV matchups?

I'd suggest having line ships being allowed to challange anyone, but specialty ships , drone variants, carriers, and escorts, only allowed to challange others flying ships of that particular type.

[Hexx]

Twas I who wrote the rules, based on Hooch's original rules. I organised them into logical groups and removed as much redundancy as possible. This is why all the VC points are in the VC section for ease of refernce, rather than have them sprinkled throughout other rules sections or written twice.
I overhauled the challenge rules extensively to make them less restricting, yet still keep the game playable. A house leader that is killed every other day seemed implausible, and in Hooch's original concept, he stated that 'generals lead armies, they do not go into battle', hence the high VC points for the death of their ship. This seemed contradictory with the existing challenge rules, so I took the concept of cha'Dich from the TNG episode "Sins of the Father". thus preserving the leadership role while maintaining the mandatory death rule. This also opened up the challenge system so that anyone could challenge anyone else.
I had actually wanted to use an honour points system, where every pilot had a certain number of honour points which were lost to the victor in combat. Players with no honour then, were worth nothing in a challenge (to make the game playable for weaker PvP players), and other players would get the chance to fight to their heart's content. Honour points would then contribute to VCs and make a kind of a ladder as well. However, some people didnt like the idea citing their was too much bookeeping but had the simplicity of using mathematics instead of a lengthy rule system to acheive the same.
The use of build points is still under consideration, and this may yet be added to the rules.

Blah blah blah

Yes Tracey (sorry-still can't spell the Klingon one..) actually I knew it was you who wrote the rules.
It was a shot at you and your dishonourable house. Since putting my House leader in a skin tight red leather outfit is a
not a war winning idea I'm trying to spread discontent among those who may get drafted by your house.
Actually you
re better off to just assume wheneevr I type something it's a cheap shot at someone.
Mostly you and Dizzy for the forseeable future.
I'll probably stick Kroma and that useless git you have in there as well though.



-> SEE WARRIORS? Do you actually want to fly for a leader who's so caught up in Romulan like plans and deception that they can't even realize when their Honour is being challenged?
Or worse, who simply have so little Homour that they don't feel the need to respond?
I call upon all true Klingon Warriors to rebel and refuse to fight for this species-confused "warrior" (<--- note clever use of small "w" to add further insult)
Demand that your House join the forces of House Kinsomethingorother!

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

"warrior" (<--- note clever use of small "w" to add further insult)

Umm.... that might be one more "w" than you will manage on the server......

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Since putting my House leader in a skin tight red leather outfit is a
not a war winning idea

Have to agree there Hexx, somehow Kermit in red leather just doesn't work.


Damn, there went my chance at a C7 if I get drafted by that house......<sigh>

[Julin Eurthyr]

Since putting my House leader in a skin tight red leather outfit is a
not a war winning idea

Have to agree there Hexx, somehow Kermit in red leather just doesn't work.


Damn, there went my chance at a C7 if I get drafted by that house......<sigh>

You don't know the bodybuilding program I went through to get into shape for the server.

I look like Ah-nold now...

Too bad that skin-tight leather on that physique will probably only impress < 10% of this forum though...

(and the 10% I'm thinking of is Likkerpig and Kroma, as I look more like the modern Gov. Arnold than the Arnold of movie fame... )

And forum posts don't determine who gets the C7s in my house.  Skill and need do.  You still have a chance there Chuut...

[_SSCF_Hooch]

Say there is an impromptu challenge and the odd man out follows the rules and sits it out. His/her side loses and they are left with the (more than likely) damaged victor(s). What happens then?

If you are left with a damaged Victor of a challenge, you cannot kill them. The mission must be resolved a way that allows the wining player to win the mission. I know that might be difficult. It may involve everybody leaving the mission via map exit forfeit. You are smart and fair people I am sure you can figure a way to do this.

Hooch

[_SSCF_Hooch]

Yes, it's in the rules that challenges for leadership are GSA based using the same ships you've got.


XO's are allowed to challenge leaders now...
Of course House leaders are allowed to keep throwing "champions" in the way of the challenger
(Hmmm were the rules written or influenced by anyone who's a primary house leader?
Would you really want to fly for such a cowardly warrior?)

They were cleaned up to prevent a mess on the server, and yes I have protect the House leaders by doing this.

[_SSCF_Hooch]

Just wondering as a late era server we will have 3rd gen ftrs and fast drones, would these cause a problem as far as BPV matchups?

I'd suggest having line ships being allowed to challange anyone, but specialty ships , drone variants, carriers, and escorts, only allowed to challange others flying ships of that particular type.

Ok, here is what a want to try to do.

KIS, "keep it simple"

I like the BVP idea, the idea of combat between equal ships will be the hardest thing we do on this server.

You are going to have to know your ship's basic BPV for this server folks. Just write it down, its' not like it changes that much. The BPV is in the the ship descrpition if you right click on it in the shipyard menu. Just keep track of it.

Hooch

[Corbomite]

So your saying that an F6 (109) with fast drones is an even matchup to a D5D (116) with fast drones? Even if fast drones are 1 point each the D5D has a 127 point advantage over the F6 (using small drones) and that isn't even counting other supplies.

[FPF-DieHard]

Use hull-class.   is is easier.

[Corbomite]

Say there is an impromptu challenge and the odd man out follows the rules and sits it out. His/her side loses and they are left with the (more than likely) damaged victor(s). What happens then?

If you are left with a damaged Victor of a challenge, you cannot kill them. The mission must be resolved a way that allows the wining player to win the mission. I know that might be difficult. It may involve everybody leaving the mission via map exit forfeit. You are smart and fair people I am sure you can figure a way to do this.

Hooch

Something else occured to me.

Is it fair for the odd man/woman out to coach their side during the battle?

[Corbomite]

Use hull-class.   is is easier.

Ahhh, but there's the rub. FS has classified the F6 as a light cruiser and for all intents and purposes it is... barely.

[_SSCF_Hooch]

Say there is an impromptu challenge and the odd man out follows the rules and sits it out. His/her side loses and they are left with the (more than likely) damaged victor(s). What happens then?

If you are left with a damaged Victor of a challenge, you cannot kill them. The mission must be resolved a way that allows the wining player to win the mission. I know that might be difficult. It may involve everybody leaving the mission via map exit forfeit. You are smart and fair people I am sure you can figure a way to do this.

Hooch

Something else occurred to me.

Is it fair for the odd man/woman out to coach their side during the battle?

That is fine with me about coaching.

Corbo, I see your point

As for Hull Class vs BPV, I don't want people being cherry picked in smaller ships by bigger ships in challenges. Hull Class is deceiving IMO. If the grand total of a ships BVP is a better way to do this then I will talk to those helping me and see what they think. I will get back to you on this.

Hooch

[FPF-DieHard]

That is fine with me about coaching.

Corbo, I see your point

As for Hull Class vs BPV, I don't want people being cherry picked in smaller ships by bigger ships in challenges. Hull Class is deceiving IMO. If the grand total of a ships BVP is a better way to do this then I will talk to those helping me and see what they think. I will get back to you on this.

Hooch

If you aren't including the cost of supplies, BPV is a lie as to a ships combat potential.

Hull Class is simply easier.

[KDS-KYTARH]

Hmmmmm rules in a Klingon civil war,,,,, novel idea

There is usually one simple rule in a Klingon war between houses.

How do you know you have been challenged??

The other ship is FIRING IT'S WEAPONS AT YOU!

[GDA-S'Cipio]

There doesn't seem to be any reason to remain in a rebel house.  If your house leader proves to be such a coward as to surrender, is there any reason to stay it out and follow the Rebel rules?  I can't see any reason not to join one of the remaining houses.

Of course, this is an easy problem to avoid.  If my house leader starts talking surrender (i.e. if I'm in Hexx's house) then I just pull out my knife, slit his throat, and take over.

-S'Cipio

[EmeraldEdge]

It may make sense to join another house who still has honor, from the viewpoint of a member of a fallen house.   Why would a still strong and honorable house accept into it's house members of another house that has proven itself to be weak and disgraced?

[Hexx]

There doesn't seem to be any reason to remain in a rebel house.  If your house leader proves to be such a coward as to surrender, is there any reason to stay it out and follow the Rebel rules?  I can't see any reason not to join one of the remaining houses.

Of course, this is an easy problem to avoid.  If my house leader starts talking surrender (i.e. if I'm in Hexx's house) then I just pull out my knife, slit his throat, and take over.

-S'Cipio

Hmm, lotta smack talk considering what you've been snacking on recently....

[_SSCF_Hooch]

That is fine with me about coaching.

Corbo, I see your point

As for Hull Class vs BPV, I don't want people being cherry picked in smaller ships by bigger ships in challenges. Hull Class is deceiving IMO. If the grand total of a ships BVP is a better way to do this then I will talk to those helping me and see what they think. I will get back to you on this.

Hooch

If you aren't including the cost of supplies, BPV is a lie as to a ships combat potential.

Hull Class is simply easier.

Ok, I will put this to a vote then.

Hooch

[Green]

There doesn't seem to be any reason to remain in a rebel house.  If your house leader proves to be such a coward as to surrender, is there any reason to stay it out and follow the Rebel rules?  I can't see any reason not to join one of the remaining houses.

But if too many of the fallen house's pilots go to one of the other houses, then the server becomes lop-sided and all of the work for the draft if deminished.

The rebel fleet rule makes good sense.  Of course so does knocking off any house leader who wants to surrender.  If they don't want the job ... then they can opt to move aside.

[Green]

I had actually wanted to use an honour points system, where every pilot had a certain number of honour points which were lost to the victor in combat. Players with no honour then, were worth nothing in a challenge (to make the game playable for weaker PvP players), and other players would get the chance to fight to their heart's content. Honour points would then contribute to VCs and make a kind of a ladder as well.
...
The use of build points is still under consideration, and this may yet be added to the rules.

That would be a really cool concept.  I agree, more bean-counting, but really a nice touch.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

There doesn't seem to be any reason to remain in a rebel house.  If your house leader proves to be such a coward as to surrender, is there any reason to stay it out and follow the Rebel rules?  I can't see any reason not to join one of the remaining houses.

But if too many of the fallen house's pilots go to one of the other houses, then the server becomes lop-sided and all of the work for the draft if deminished.

The way I read the rules, the members of the Rebel house would join one of the other houses by way of a later-round draft.  Thus, the drat work would be preserved.

To be clear, what I'm looking for is a reason to remain in the rebel house.  There may be none.  In such case I expect the members of the fallen house will submit their names for a draft round, poste haste, after their leader surrenders.

-S'Cipio

[Kroma BaSyl]

The rules site has been updated.

http://mkroll.asta.chicago.il.us/KCW/

The only changes from the word doc I posted earlier are the 2 clarifications Green requested in this thread, and the change to the bullet under rule 28 to allow for the appointment of a new XO should the XO depose the Primary Leader.
   

Only the Primary House leader is subject to leadership challenges. The XO is allowed to make a leadership challenge. If the XO is successful in deposing the Primary House leader he/she will appoint the new XO from the rank and file of their House

[Corbomite]

One more thing I wanted to ask.

As the rules are now, all one has to do to avoid a challenge is to ignore the person challenging, i.e. no response to the challenge leaves it in limbo. Is this what you want and intend?

[Hexx]

One more thing I wanted to ask.

As the rules are now, all one has to do to avoid a challenge is to ignore the person challenging, i.e. no response to the challenge leaves it in limbo. Is this what you want and intend?

It's kinda confusingly worded, but it does say that once the above conditions have been met (same # of players, BPV within 10, both players of rank Captain or above) the challenge must be accepted or bring dishonour to the house.. which means forfeiting 5VP.
Regardless of whether a challenge has been accepted or refused the person challenged does not have to accept any more challenges for 24 hours.

[likkerpig]

Too bad that skin-tight leather on that physique will probably only impress < 10% of this forum though...

(and the 10% I'm thinking of is Likkerpig and Kroma, as I look more like the modern Gov. Arnold than the Arnold of movie fame... )

Pfft. Unless you change yer name to Kroma or LeRoy (sigh, dreamy young vixen....) it ain't gonna happen! I could put you in the stable though if you wanna make some bucks....

[_SSCF_Hooch]

One more thing I wanted to ask.

As the rules are now, all one has to do to avoid a challenge is to ignore the person challenging, i.e. no response to the challenge leaves it in limbo. Is this what you want and intend?

Well to a certain extent I am hoping that people will play like the veteran players that we are and follow the spirit of the rules.

But just to clarify, all players are to respond to challenges and play within the spirit of the server rules.

Sorry guys, I have tried to cover the bases here in this server. If necessary I will be the umpire during the server awhile I am playing which will confine my participation to the House I am in.

I hope this helps Corbo, and Hexx.

it is my hope that we will not have too much rules lawyer'ing with this server.

[FPF-DieHard]

How about a rule stating the Rules-lawyers will be banned? 

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

One more thing I wanted to ask.

As the rules are now, all one has to do to avoid a challenge is to ignore the person challenging, i.e. no response to the challenge leaves it in limbo. Is this what you want and intend?

All players are members of a house, and so therefore must be aware of the rules (a player cannot simply log in without knowing there are rules). It is encumbant then on players to read the rules. When a challenge is issued, the challengee may be in mission, may be ghosted, or simply may have stepped away from the keyboard, and to penalise a player under those circumstances does not seem fair. It also becomes the responsibility of others within your house to alert their own team mates that a challenge has been issued. If someone is deliberately ignoring challenges, this will become apparent and the offending will be banned from the server. Disputes will be resolved by House leaders where players cannot resolve issues themselves.

[Doomstone]

If you aren't including the cost of supplies, BPV is a lie as to a ships combat potential.

Correct. And this is especially true for Taldren's spacedock cost. Spacedock cost is based on Dyna Prestige Points, not BPV. IF it was ever intended to replace the BPV system, multiple generations of Mplayer/GSA league players can testify to it's horrible ineffectiveness in this regard.

When I have run & participated in Klingon vs. Klingon intra-fleet wars in the past (2 of them), we used SFB BPV cost of supplies to balance the combats. It worked.

[Doomstone]

Per the latest KCW rules, a House Leader cannot be challenged during the first week of the server. After a challenge, that leader is exempt from challenges for 7 days.

That means a House leader can only be challenged ONCE in the first 2 weeks of the campaign. How long is the campaign supposed to run???

If a D2 server clicks off 6 turns per hour, times 24 hrs in a day, that's 144 clicks per day on the stardate calendar. How much time does this actually represent?

It seems to me that one challenge per DAY would be much more realistic. And a lot less COWARDLY.

[_SSCF_Hooch]

Per the latest KCW rules, a House Leader cannot be challenged during the first week of the server. After a challenge, that leader is exempt from challenges for 7 days.

That means a House leader can only be challenged ONCE in the first 2 weeks of the campaign. How long is the campaign supposed to run???

If a D2 server clicks off 6 turns per hour, times 24 hrs in a day, that's 144 clicks per day on the stardate calendar. How much time does this actually represent?

It seems to me that one challenge per DAY would be much more realistic. And a lot less COWARDLY.

Due to some oversights we are tweaking the combat and house challenge rules.

The idea for a real time server has been booted since it would jack the shipyards up.