Topic: GZ and PBR, funny stuff

[madelf]

Patrol Battle Rules ? v. 3.1

Command Variants: you are limited to one Command Variant, and only in 2v2 or 3v3 matches.  Command Variants are off limits for 1v1 duels.  Command Variants consist of BB?s, DN?s, BCH?s and the Command Versions that exist for virtually all designs of standard Cruisers, Light Cruisers, Destroyers & Frigates.  These are limited to 2v2 or 3v3 matches since these vessels did not operate alone (in normal circumstances).  Refer to the Patrol Battle Matrix for a by race breakdown of BCH?s and DN?s and the other Command Variants.
 
Some PF races have BCH and DN type vessels that also are full PF Tenders.  These will be denoted with an asterisk (*) and mention at the bottom of that races Matrix.  These ships will count as both Command and Combat Support.

True Carriers: True Carriers are restricted to use in 3v3 battles and the other 2 ships must be carrier escorts.  Further, escorts must have their carriers (so they too will only be seen in 3v3 matches).  Refer to the Patrol Battle Matrix for a by race breakdown of True Carriers and Escorts. 
 
Additional escort restriction:  The carrier?s escorts can not be of a larger hull class than the carrier they escort.  Ex:  a Fed NVS (Light Cruiser Hull Class) could have any escorts, as the largest Fed escort is the CL-Hulled NAC.  However, a Fed FFV (Frigate Hull Class) could only have FFE?s as escorts.  Heavy Cruiser Hulled CVS or Dreadnought Hulled CVA can have any escorts.

Only a single Combat Support Vessel may be used, and only in a 3v3.  Refer to the Patrol Battle Matrix for a by race breakdown of Combat Support Vessels
 
Note for the PF races:  PF Tenders are not considered Carriers but rather combat support vessels.  Escort ships were provided for the PF races, but they have no Carriers to escort, so I have listed them under Combat support vessels as well.  Any future mod that is used that provided True Carriers to all races, then those escorts will be subject to Rule #2.

ISC PPD Deployment Limit:  ISC squadrons are limited to a single PPD armed ship (regardless if it?s 1 PPD or 6). 
 
1st Gen X Ships:  Teams can deploy 1st Gen X-ships in two ways.  Option A ? A single Heavy Cruiser Hull X ship can be used as a Command Variant.  These ships are listed with the Command Variants on the Matrix.  All other ships must be non-X.  Option B ? All Ships in the formation must be X ships.  These formations are still limited to single Heavy Cruiser X-hull.  1st Gen X ships for each Race are listed on the Matrix.
 
Additionally, the use of 1st Generation X-Ships will be restricted to ?Advanced Era? Matches.  All Advanced era X2 ships (all ships beginning with an ?X? ? ex. XCA, XCF, XCB) will not be used in Divisional Matches.
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Just a direct copy paste of the rules.  But once you look at the actual shiplist, you'll realize that a 3v3 can ONLY be flown with a carrier and it's 2 escorts (See rule #2).  AS any other combo would be illegal--- one CC, one support vessel, and you can't legally take a 3rd ship without it being a carrrier.  And if you DO take the carrier, you have to scrap the CC ANd support vessel for the 2 obligated escorts that the carrier demands.
 

[madelf]

here's another funny tidbit from the hydran shiplist

the H-IC and IC+ aren't lsited as carriers
 

They're command cruisers

So you couldn't use one in a 3v3, but you sure could scare the hell out of someone in a 2v2!

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Am I missing something here?  You mean that you CAN use the IC in a 3v3, right?

While the IC/+ is listed as a 'command cruiser' (I honestly think they got the ID & IC's confused)  you can use 'command cruisers' in any 2v2 or 3v3.

AS any other combo would be illegal--- one CC, one support vessel, and you can't legally take a 3rd ship without it being a carrrier.

What about taking 'line ships'? 

That would allow you your CC, your support ship, and your 3rd non-carrier ship.

[Green]

Exactly Bear.

You CAN have 3. 

You can have 1 CC, 1 a support, and 1 a line ship.

You can also have 1 CC and two line ships if you wish.

[Kroma BaSyl]

AS any other combo would be illegal--- one CC, one support vessel, and you can't legally take a 3rd ship without it being a carrrier.

I must be missing something madelf.  Are you saying there are no vanilla ships to take?

[Corbomite]

There are several errors in the matrix. I found a few myself. Thanks for pointing thiose out Madelf. I'll take a closer look at the Hydrans and tell Jakle.

[Ronin]

Madelf...

I may be mistaken about your interpretation (and if I am, I will apologize now), but I believe you missed something. And if so, I feel that your characterization of "GZ and PBR, funny stuff" is unfair.

It appears to me from what you said, sir, that you took the ships listed on the site Jakle prepared as the only ships from which to choose. If you were looking only at the Command, Support, Carriers and Escorts on that list I can see how you would draw the conclusion you did. However, that would be a mistaken assumption.

Every ship in the Firesoul 3.4 refit is available. And if it is not listed on what Jakle posted as Command, Support, Carriers and Escorts (which represents only a very small percentage of the available ships) it can be used with impunity.

So, in essense, your claim that only a carrier and two escorts can be used is incorrect.

As a longtime participant in the GZ endeavor I tell you that I am proud of the strides made towards balance and incorporation of the Patrol Battle Rules in that league. I am also proud of the fact that, as is often done here, Jakle and Co. solicit feedback from the community regarding future changes, additions and revisions.

I have had a look at the GZ forum and do not see that you posted your concerns there anywhere. Which leads me to believe that perhaps your intent was not to bring a problem to light (although, as I have said, I believe your interpretation to be in error) but to poke fun. Again, if I am mistaken, I apologize. But if I am not, please understand that for some of us the GZ league is a circle of friends, good people that we care about and enjoy spending time with in the game, on the forums and on TeamSpeak. Many of us involved care deeply and want to see GZ, their divisional league format and the Patrol Battle Rules succeed and maintain a viable player base. Not unlike how many of us here feel about the Dyna community, which I have had the pleasure of being a participant in for some time.

Madelf, I am honestly grateful that you brought this up. You having taken the time to read that and to bring it here means to me that you were at least interested in the idea. So, as a participant in GZ I want to say, "thanks for having a look" and I hope that you will have another look with my comments (and the comments of others here) in mind. I am certain that the shiplist is not perfect. There are likely Command ships listed as Support and such. Since it has been a long time since I have pulled out the SSD's and sat down for a game of SFB I trust others to point out those errors. *grins* But Jakle is willing to listen and (really important) to make changes based on what SFB "experts" have to say. So, I welcome your questions about that league and hope that you will stick around there and help to create something even better. I have enjoyed it a lot and really look forward to continued participation.

To anyone who happens to read this, if you are at all intrigued by the Patrol Battle Rules concept in a divisional league (NOT a ladder) and would like more information or would like a discussion regarding it, please feel free to drop a line at the GZ forum HERE.

If you put "Jakle" in the subject line I assure you he will respond and sincerely attempt to answer your questions, concerns, comments or suggestions.

I am not in any way trying to take Dyna players away from our base here. I am simply saying that you can do both and that they are not mutually exclusive. I am living proof.

Respects...

[Kroma BaSyl]

Madelf...

I may be mistaken about your interpretation (and if I am, I will apologize now), but I believe you missed something. And if so, I feel that your characterization of "GZ and PBR, funny stuff" is unfair.

It appears to me from what you said, sir, that you took the ships listed on the site Jakle prepared as the only ships from which to choose. If you were looking only at the Command, Support, Carriers and Escorts on that list I can see how you would draw the conclusion you did. However, that would be a mistaken assumption.

Every ship in the Firesoul 3.4 refit is available. And if it is not listed on what Jakle posted as Command, Support, Carriers and Escorts (which represents only a very small percentage of the available ships) it can be used with impunity.

So, in essense, your claim that only a carrier and two escorts can be used is incorrect.

As a longtime participant in the GZ endeavor I tell you that I am proud of the strides made towards balance and incorporation of the Patrol Battle Rules in that league. I am also proud of the fact that, as is often done here, Jakle and Co. solicit feedback from the community regarding future changes, additions and revisions.

I have had a look at the GZ forum and do not see that you posted your concerns there anywhere. Which leads me to believe that perhaps your intent was not to bring a problem to light (although, as I have said, I believe your interpretation to be in error) but to poke fun. Again, if I am mistaken, I apologize. But if I am not, please understand that for some of us the GZ league is a circle of friends, good people that we care about and enjoy spending time with in the game, on the forums and on TeamSpeak. Many of us involved care deeply and want to see GZ, their divisional league format and the Patrol Battle Rules succeed and maintain a viable player base. Not unlike how many of us here feel about the Dyna community, which I have had the pleasure of being a participant in for some time.

Madelf, I am honestly grateful that you brought this up. You having taken the time to read that and to bring it here means to me that you were at least interested in the idea. So, as a participant in GZ I want to say, "thanks for having a look" and I hope that you will have another look with my comments (and the comments of others here) in mind. I am certain that the shiplist is not perfect. There are likely Command ships listed as Support and such. Since it has been a long time since I have pulled out the SSD's and sat down for a game of SFB I trust others to point out those errors. *grins* But Jakle is willing to listen and (really important) to make changes based on what SFB "experts" have to say. So, I welcome your questions about that league and hope that you will stick around there and help to create something even better. I have enjoyed it a lot and really look forward to continued participation.

To anyone who happens to read this, if you are at all intrigued by the Patrol Battle Rules concept in a divisional league (NOT a ladder) and would like more information or would like a discussion regarding it, please feel free to drop a line at the GZ forum HERE.

If you put "Jakle" in the subject line I assure you he will respond and sincerely attempt to answer your questions, concerns, comments or suggestions.

I am not in any way trying to take Dyna players away from our base here. I am simply saying that you can do both and that they are not mutually exclusive. I am living proof.

Respects...

Ahhh....was that what you meant Madelf? The vanilla ships aren't list on the matrix, just the ones from the total list that are to be considered Coomad, Support or Carriers.

[Lepton]

Madelf just has foot-in-mouth, fault-finding syndrome because he was slighted in the past.  Heaven forbid!   Obviously a 3v3 is a command ship (if desired), a support ship (if desired), and a line ship.  Duh!!!

[madelf]

Correct Kroma, the categories listed in the race shiplists are Command, Carrier, Escort and support.  Line ships aren't listed in the matrix anywhere.

[madelf]

Madelf...

I may be mistaken about your interpretation (and if I am, I will apologize now), but I believe you missed something. And if so, I feel that your characterization of "GZ and PBR, funny stuff" is unfair.

It appears to me from what you said, sir, that you took the ships listed on the site Jakle prepared as the only ships from which to choose. If you were looking only at the Command, Support, Carriers and Escorts on that list I can see how you would draw the conclusion you did. However, that would be a mistaken assumption.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not in any way trying to take Dyna players away from our base here. I am simply saying that you can do both and that they are not mutually exclusive. I am living proof.

Respects...

No where in the PBR rules or the shiplist links that I had was there any mention of the 'line' ship.  Trying to help a buddy of mine form a 3v3 combo that would work in the BPV/ERA setting for his matches at 2am, that was all the info I had to work with.  I DID post it here as I've never gone to the GZ site, and I KNOW that GZ people frequent these forums, thinking maybe I'd get a response, some useful, some beliggerent, and go from there.  That's exactly what I got.  Y'all stuck a third definition on another page I didn't have access to, and that changes things.

Shogun, your defensive reaction thinknig I'm mad about you taking 'player base away' disappoints me.  I made no such intonation.  Have you forgotten how much I used to GZ?  And SL?  I for one KNOW that a league and a dyna aren't mutually exclusive, and was even considering joining my fleet's GZ roster to help out.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Correct Kroma, the categories listed in the race shiplists are Command, Carrier, Escort and support.  Line ships aren't listed in the matrix anywhere.

Right, it was just assumed that those that weren't on the matrix were the line ships and therefore didn't have any restrictions on them. The ones list on the matrix are just those that need specail consideration with teh PBR structure. Thus you can have 1 CC, 1 support ship and 1 of anyother ship not listed on the matrix.

[Ronin]

Madelf,

I made my post most carefully in order NOT to have you think that I was being beligerent. I even said to myself before posting, "I bet he will presume that I am attacking him and I am going to get negative Karma from him. I have to be very careful here."  I posted that bit for others, Madelf, as was clearly stated a couple paragraphs above where I ended my comments to you directly and addressed anyone else who might read my comments.

"To anyone who happens to read this, if you are at all intrigued by the Patrol Battle Rules concept in a divisional league (NOT a ladder) and would like more information or would like a discussion regarding it, please feel free to drop a line at the GZ forum HERE.

If you put "Jakle" in the subject line I assure you he will respond and sincerely attempt to answer your questions, concerns, comments or suggestions.

I am not in any way trying to take Dyna players away from our base here. I am simply saying that you can do both and that they are not mutually exclusive. I am living proof."

Not everyone has participated in GZ and may have wondered, Madelf. I even apologized to you up front in case I had misunderstood you. I see that I have, in fact, been given negative karma for my remarks and I presume it was at your hand. If so, cheap shot, sir. It is a shame that we can not post in friendly disagreement without taking a hit to our karma.

I stand by my comments.

[madelf]

Madelf,

I made my post most carefully in order NOT to have you think that I was being beligerent. I even said to myself before posting, "I bet he will presume that I am attacking him and I am going to get negative Karma from him. I have to be very careful here."  I posted that bit for others, Madelf, as was clearly stated a couple paragraphs above where I ended my comments to you directly and addressed anyone else who might read my comments.

"To anyone who happens to read this, if you are at all intrigued by the Patrol Battle Rules concept in a divisional league (NOT a ladder) and would like more information or would like a discussion regarding it, please feel free to drop a line at the GZ forum HERE.

If you put "Jakle" in the subject line I assure you he will respond and sincerely attempt to answer your questions, concerns, comments or suggestions.

I am not in any way trying to take Dyna players away from our base here. I am simply saying that you can do both and that they are not mutually exclusive. I am living proof."

Not everyone has participated in GZ and may have wondered, Madelf. I even apologized to you up front in case I had misunderstood you. I see that I have, in fact, been given negative karma for my remarks and I presume it was at your hand. If so, cheap shot, sir. It is a shame that we can not post in friendly disagreement without taking a hit to our karma.

I stand by my comments.

The only one who really earned negative karma is lepton, but I think he's going for a record.  MY karma goes up and down when I haven't even posted for 2 days.  Here, ya karma needy Fed, I'll give ya one.  It'll make up for the stock D7 I beat ya up in.

[Ronin]

Oh... so that's how it is, eh? Gonna bring up my humiliating defeat... *hangs head* Maybe I will do better flying in a Klingon boat in the KCW. :-P

I still love ya, ya ugly ridge-headed bastige.

[madelf]

Oh... so that's how it is, eh? Gonna bring up my humiliating defeat... *hangs head* Maybe I will do better flying in a Klingon boat in the KCW. :-P

I still love ya, ya ugly ridge-headed bastige.

That's ugly, ridge-headed, POINTY EARED bastige to YOU, flathead!

[Ronin]

I stand corrected. Oh, and you smell bad, too.  :-P

hehe

[madelf]

That's the smell of Victory, you UFP flunkie.  No wonder you don't like it, you've never been around it before.

[Kroma BaSyl]

That's the smell of Victory, you UFP flunkie.  No wonder you don't like it, you've never been around it before.

<sniff><sniff>Yup it's got that Dizaroma to it.

[KHH Jakle]

The IC and the IC+ needs to be in the Carrier bucket and treated as such.  I am Klink (but I know a good deal about Fed and Mirak ships), so I am prone to oversights when dealing with the classification of ships belonging to other races.  As Corbomite said, he's found goof's before.  Thanks for the catch.

I'll have to update the Hydran Matrix.....they carry version numbers now, so I can tell the difference between the old and new versions.

As to the other thing:  there was an additional line to the rules that you didn't cut and paste, and that I imagine you might not have read:

"These rules apply to restricted designs (above) that were relatively few in number or specialized.  When consulting the Patrol Battle Matrix, it is important to remember that the Matrix is simply a list of ships that fall under the above restrictions.  All unlisted ships are under no restriction whatsoever and can be used at will. "

Now that line is there specifically to make readers aware that all unlisted ships are unrestricted and can be used at will.  If it's not doing it's job, let me know.