Topic: Classic War (experimental/fun server)  (Read 11163 times)

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Offline Dizzy

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2004, 10:13:49 pm »
Well, I checked back on the webmapped shipyards... and there is not much good to purchase at the moment. When does it get updated? How long do I have to wait between cycles?

Also, shouldnt ships that are traded back in show up again in the shipyard>?

For instance, if there was an NHK and a KRCS and I decided to try them both to see which one I liked, 1st the NHK then trading it in on the KRCS, then player number two comes along and both ships are gone from the yards.

Please... more info on how the yards work, please, Bonk.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2004, 05:00:24 am »
Quote
Ya, well Bonk, I'm glad you tested and confirmed the fact that you can make a server dole out the majority of missions only when in a PvP element, but can you find a 50-50 balance? The server population is not high, and I'd like to build up some pp. There is not much point in a dyna to peruse the map and do nothing else. It's just too hard to 'catch' someone on. To make matters even more puzzling, is the fact that in PvP... the 2x players wouldnt likely agree on which hex the battle would take place. Unless of course the map is extremely small.

Thus movement two and draft radius of one. Yes players need to agree on where to battle or the server needs to be busy, one or the other. People have asked for this in the past (myself included, way back) so I thought I'd finally give it a try to see what happens.

Quote
Granted, while missions do show in friendly space from time to time, they do not show up enough. At least to speen much time on the server. In addition the stress test you want to happen wont happen unless we are getting frequent missions.

We need lots pf players to stress test. Lots of players equals lots of missions - no problem.  (Also I've noticed - follow foreign AI characters around - you seem to get more missions... hehe, this setup has plenty of potential controls on the action, I can delete the AI's, allow them to take hexes (as discussed for player balance), control their movement... ;))

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Now as far as the 'bank account' ship... If you want to swap out your ship for another, I thought it would be easy and faster to have a cheap ship in the shipyard you can bid on and then trade your current expensive ship in so that you now have banked the prestiuge of the expensive ship so you can go buy a better one on the webmap. Essentially you could do this using only the webmap, but in order to do it, you'd need to go to the webmap, buy the ship, logon the server, trade you lod one, log out, buy the one u really want but previously didnt have the cash for, then logon and trade the transition ship in for the ship you wanted.

Ah, I see what you mean. I just upped the starting PP to 4000 instead. (I could increase it further...) Or I could turn on internal frigate production to allow what you suggest.



Quote
Well, I checked back on the webmapped shipyards... and there is not much good to purchase at the moment. When does it get updated? How long do I have to wait between cycles?

Also, shouldnt ships that are traded back in show up again in the shipyard>?

For instance, if there was an NHK and a KRCS and I decided to try them both to see which one I liked, 1st the NHK then trading it in on the KRCS, then player number two comes along and both ships are gone from the yards.

Please... more info on how the yards work, please, Bonk.

The webmap shipyard is static - no cycles - it reads from the shiplist and lists all ships for your race whose YFA is less than or equal to the current stardate and whose YLA is greater than or equal to the current stardate. There are no cycles, only YFA and YLA (just implemented yesterday - please check).

Since the trade-in mechanism is internal there is nothing I can do about it, the ship is destroyed. If I ever understand the shipcachevector, then I could do trade-ins/upgrades externally (plus a garage). But since the webmap shipyard reads directly from the shiplist, all the ships of the era are still available in unlimited numbers (no actual OoB implemented yet - I need to decide on a mechanism).

Though Battleships, Battle Stations and Starbases are not offered. They are limited by the webmap shipyard script and presented as "Limited Ships" on the shipyard page as part of an older incomplete mechanism for an OoB I was considering and may still use.

So currently, the "Limited Ships" column lists assigned ships (just a few classes to test and it is not complete and may not be used at all), the "General Availability" column lists all the ships on the shiplist of the era except those classes listed as "Limited" in the column at left and numbers of ships are unlimited (no OoB implemented yet). The "Server Shipyard" column on the right lists active bids [i'm still using the biditem table of the internal shipyard till I figure out the shipcachevector] and anything actually present in the internal shipyards.

Some ships were still being produced but I adjusted settings to further reduce the probability of production and set the maximum age to 1 turn to keep it clean - I will need to increase the maximum ship age to ~2016 turns again though to populate the shipyard for internal purchases if that is the way I go, but for a true OoB I'm thinking that having RM's assign ships from the webpage is better and keep all purchases external (adds motivation to keep your ship intact ;)).

Figuring out a way to handle trade-ins and OoB using this setup will be the trick. For now it is just basic control of the shipyards established. I think I'll get back to work on the shipcachevector soon, then it will all be no problem, just a matter of deciding on how to make it work.

I just threw this out there while we wait for squadon commander or the next server in line to explore some ideas and to motivate me to work on a full OoB interface for SQL. (I can't bring myself to look at the flatfile lately.)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2004, 06:27:31 am by Bonk »

Offline Cleaven

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2004, 09:29:08 am »
Can you set it such that when a player's ship is destroyed in PvP it is replaced with the same ship ie you can't lose your ship in combat. You lose the hex DV and you don't get (or lose) PP from the battle. A house rule of all PvP is to the death would change the nature of the game. To offset the shift away from the objective of destroying an enemy players ship you could just have serious (large) VP's awarded for destruction of those ships. Lose a battle cruiser five times and you have lost a lot of VP's. Line ships of course are not worth anything. In this way you can fly anything you want as long as you are prepared to lose the VP's. I'm not really sure I like this idea because there is too much book-keeping. Can the system somehow keep track of PvP wins/losses?

 

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

Offline Dizzy

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2004, 10:25:19 am »
Clarify the shipyard question on if there is ship 'xyz' that when purchased will there still be more?

Offline Bonk

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2004, 10:49:49 am »
Can you set it such that when a player's ship is destroyed in PvP it is replaced with the same ship ie you can't lose your ship in combat. You lose the hex DV and you don't get (or lose) PP from the battle. A house rule of all PvP is to the death would change the nature of the game. To offset the shift away from the objective of destroying an enemy players ship you could just have serious (large) VP's awarded for destruction of those ships. Lose a battle cruiser five times and you have lost a lot of VP's. Line ships of course are not worth anything. In this way you can fly anything you want as long as you are prepared to lose the VP's. I'm not really sure I like this idea because there is too much book-keeping. Can the system somehow keep track of PvP wins/losses?

I can set the DeathShipBPVPenalty to 1.0 and you should keep your ship (or one of equal BPV) on being killed. It is currently set to 0.5 to make PvP kills hurt. (default is 0.75) Interesting idea there, not sure I'll try it but it is interesting. The "Destroyed Ships" page on the webmap should report all ships destroyed in PvP (unfortunately ships are also reported as destroyed when they are not, in bugged missions), but this page should at least help with such stats anyway.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2004, 10:57:08 am »
Clarify the shipyard question on if there is ship 'xyz' that when purchased will there still be more?

Yes, as many as you can afford. There is no OoB implemented yet. I was thinking about it at work this morning and what I need is a way to count the ships purchased (relatively easy) and a list of how many of each ship is built for the server(/build cycle) to compare against (tough part). If someone wanted to go through the whole of OP+3.4 and set up the appropriate base number of every ship needed for a campaign build cycle, I could make use of it to prototype a full OoB system... otherwise I'll have to do it myself but I'd like to see a standard applied or at least use numbers that make sense and are approved by the community.

Offline Lepton

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2004, 11:02:53 am »
Lepton, what race r u playing and what enemy space is giving u missions?

I am playing Lyran, and getting missions in Mirak space.  Neutral space was giving missions as well as friendly as well as enemy.


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Offline Dizzy

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2004, 12:25:55 pm »
Mb its server settings, Lepton. Currently, the Romulans have a non-aggression pact with the neutrals. What is you tension level?

Offline FireSoul

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2004, 01:29:43 pm »
Clarify the shipyard question on if there is ship 'xyz' that when purchased will there still be more?

Yes, as many as you can afford. There is no OoB implemented yet. I was thinking about it at work this morning and what I need is a way to count the ships purchased (relatively easy) and a list of how many of each ship is built for the server(/build cycle) to compare against (tough part). If someone wanted to go through the whole of OP+3.4 and set up the appropriate base number of every ship needed for a campaign build cycle, I could make use of it to prototype a full OoB system... otherwise I'll have to do it myself but I'd like to see a standard applied or at least use numbers that make sense and are approved by the community.

Please define "appropriate base number of every ship needed for a campaign build cycle".. 


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Offline Lepton

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2004, 03:33:57 pm »
Mb its server settings, Lepton. Currently, the Romulans have a non-aggression pact with the neutrals. What is you tension level?

Non-aggression pact with neutral, mortal enemies with Mirak.


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Offline Bonk

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2004, 03:49:05 pm »
Clarify the shipyard question on if there is ship 'xyz' that when purchased will there still be more?

Yes, as many as you can afford. There is no OoB implemented yet. I was thinking about it at work this morning and what I need is a way to count the ships purchased (relatively easy) and a list of how many of each ship is built for the server(/build cycle) to compare against (tough part). If someone wanted to go through the whole of OP+3.4 and set up the appropriate base number of every ship needed for a campaign build cycle, I could make use of it to prototype a full OoB system... otherwise I'll have to do it myself but I'd like to see a standard applied or at least use numbers that make sense and are approved by the community.

Please define "appropriate base number of every ship needed for a campaign build cycle".. 

Aye, there's the rub... not so easy to do.

The trick is; do I want to limit ship-by-ship or by class? Originally I was thinking ship-by-ship but now thinking to limit by class.  To limit ship-by-ship I wanted a list of all the ships and how many of each to allow per build cycle (one week of play)... e.g.:
F-FF 20
F-FFL 10
F-DD 18
F-DDL 6
F-CA 18
F-CC 6
F-BCJ 2
F-BCG 2
F-BCF 2
etc...

What I'm looking for is a good set of "base" numbers to start from, once implemented admins can adjust the number of ships desired for each build cycle or I can automate the adjustment based on economy and VC's using the "base numbers" of each ship available.

Does that make any sense? Is there a better approach? What is really desired? Should I just go by class? (I don't want to really though, leaders should be more rare etc...)

Offline Dizzy

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2004, 08:39:22 am »
Bonk, 100% trade in please.

Offline FireSoul

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2004, 09:49:25 am »
Clarify the shipyard question on if there is ship 'xyz' that when purchased will there still be more?

Yes, as many as you can afford. There is no OoB implemented yet. I was thinking about it at work this morning and what I need is a way to count the ships purchased (relatively easy) and a list of how many of each ship is built for the server(/build cycle) to compare against (tough part). If someone wanted to go through the whole of OP+3.4 and set up the appropriate base number of every ship needed for a campaign build cycle, I could make use of it to prototype a full OoB system... otherwise I'll have to do it myself but I'd like to see a standard applied or at least use numbers that make sense and are approved by the community.

Please define "appropriate base number of every ship needed for a campaign build cycle".. 

Aye, there's the rub... not so easy to do.

The trick is; do I want to limit ship-by-ship or by class? Originally I was thinking ship-by-ship but now thinking to limit by class.  To limit ship-by-ship I wanted a list of all the ships and how many of each to allow per build cycle (one week of play)... e.g.:
F-FF 20
F-FFL 10
F-DD 18
F-DDL 6
F-CA 18
F-CC 6
F-BCJ 2
F-BCG 2
F-BCF 2
etc...

What I'm looking for is a good set of "base" numbers to start from, once implemented admins can adjust the number of ships desired for each build cycle or I can automate the adjustment based on economy and VC's using the "base numbers" of each ship available.

Does that make any sense? Is there a better approach? What is really desired? Should I just go by class? (I don't want to really though, leaders should be more rare etc...)

It just so happens that I'm experimenting with enhancing the shiplist with just what you need. Perhaps you should log onto MSN at some point, and I can tell you all about it there instead of here. (not yet because it's not finished)


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Offline Bonk

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2004, 11:45:06 am »
It just so happens that I'm experimenting with enhancing the shiplist with just what you need. Perhaps you should log onto MSN at some point, and I can tell you all about it there instead of here. (not yet because it's not finished)

Cool, those extra columns you were talking about I assume... I'll try and catch you on MSN soon, lemme think about the possible enhancements a little and we can jam on it.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2004, 11:50:38 am »
Bonk, 100% trade in please.


Cool, missed that, oops. Will do.

I need to find the settings to stop the base assault missions from coming up in non-base hexes (keeping the draft radius of one...). Diehard, if you see this, do you recall what did it for GW3? was it the settings on this thread?:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163345843.msg1122434887.html#msg1122434887
Or were those settings to avoid enemy "allies" in lieu of total war missions?

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2004, 11:53:29 am »
Bonk, 100% trade in please.


Cool, missed that, oops. Will do.

I need to find the settings to stop the base assault missions from coming up in non-base hexes (keeping the draft radius of one...). Diehard, if you see this, do you recall what did it for GW3? was it the settings on this thread?:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163345843.msg1122434887.html#msg1122434887
Or were those settings to avoid enemy "allies" in lieu of total war missions?


I did nothing, too much of a pain in the ass to get it woking with both EEK and ED missions.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Bonk

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2004, 03:55:47 pm »
I did nothing, too much of a pain in the ass to get it woking with both EEK and ED missions.

Cool, thanks for the info. I'm only using EEK missions though, I didn't see this on the Gravity Well, it must be a result of me changing the ScreenForMatch numbers to favour PvP and co-op. I'll fiddle a bit to see if I can fix it.

Trade-ins are at 100% now (sorry bout that folks).

Offline Bonk

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2004, 05:19:25 pm »
Ya, well Bonk, I'm glad you tested and confirmed the fact that you can make a server dole out the majority of missions only when in a PvP element, but can you find a 50-50 balance?

OK, I broke down and increased the missions  probabilities to make it more playable. (still lower than normal)  This should alleviate the base missions issue too I hope.

Offline RazalYllib

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2004, 05:41:40 pm »
Here is some hopefully meaningful input for you to contemplate Bonk.  First of all, outstanding work on a potential front end application for the SQL kit.  If you were Romulan, I would petition the Emperor to bestow on you, the Order of Red Leaf, in recognition for your service to the Empire.  This includes the tedium of decrypting the various ?blobs? in the DB.  We really need a stress test though to see if your current config is stable enough for ?Prime Time?.
 

            For many years I (and many in the community) have dreamed of a good front end, looks like you are well on your way to making many dreams come true.  All of this without Server Kit Source code.

            First of all, I like the concept behind CW?interesting to say the least.  The shipyard works well enough as an illustrative example of how things could work with an external shipyard.  Others have remarked, and I concur that it could use a more efficient way of presenting the data to the user, I do have a couple ideas on potential layout schemes, needs more work before I make it public.  One thing that could be done right away, is seed the Ship List with the OOB from Federation and Empire, with refits stock as they become available.  I could post it again as a reference for debate on the merits of the Stock FnE OOB versus a Custom Version.  There are some here, myself included, that feel the Federation and Empire OOB is all you need, with a little tweak here and there to make it compliant with the number of ships currently available. 

            Initially, the Map should be seeded with AI in accordance with initial Fleet Composition per Federation and Empire (or player/RM defined if that is preferred).  Border Fleets dispersed on the relevant borders, Reserve Fleets on the Starbases as noted and the Home Fleet on the Homeworld.  That will populate the Map nicely with AI to hunt and Kill in the area they are supposed to be located in. 

            New construction should be what is available in the web based shipyard.  How do we determine what gets placed there?  I am glad you asked that question.  First the default build list should automatically be built.  I know that is at variance to my beloved Federation and Empire economic rules, but as everyone knows, SFC-OP is not Federation and Empire.  Here is I would handle new construction:

            Players seed the Shipyard by spending PP to place ships for bid there.  Now this might get tricky with the nutters who regularly have 40k plus in the bank, but a simple equation could equalize things, i.e. the more PP a player has in the bank, the more PP it cost that player to request that a specific ship to built so that it could be purchased.  It could also be run as bid system similar in nature to the default bid system in the DV.  Since the shipyard is ?programmable?, the Federation and Empire Restrictions in ship production could easily be implemented, such as no more than one DN per year.  The ?system? would track how many ships were ?ordered? by the players and would automatically restrict illegal purchases such as two DN constructed in a single game year and the like.  Overbuilds and build substitutions could also be handled in the same way.

            Example, 5 war cruisers are the maximum built using normal cost during a build cycle, but some player wants another one.  The end price would be doubled, both for the order (placed in shipyard) and the price of the ship that is purchased is also doubled.  Variants would be handled exactly the same with a couple restrictions, only a percentage (admin defined) of available new construction are eligible for conversion during the build cycle. 

Say you have 6 destroyers normally built during the cycle in accordance with the OOB.  Admin decides that only 1/3 of the total can be constructed initially as variants, that means Four stock destroyers at Normal Prices automatically will populate in the shipyard.  Two of the Six are eligible for conversion to variants.  If no Player chooses to convert these before the end of the build cycle, they will populate as stock destroyers.  Any player could spend PP to convert one of the two before the end of the build cycle, to a legal variant with the corresponding deduction of PP from their account.  Once all those that could have been ?selected for conversion? are designated, any further construction of destroyers and subsequent conversion, would be at the overbuild cost both to place in the shipyard, as well as purchase price.

            Substitutions to the build list would be handled similarly.   Example, if the OOB states you can replace a CA with BCH once per cycle, once a player has done so, the option would not be accessible for another player until the time passes and the choice would become available again.   

            Server Admins could also use scripting to seed the ship list.  Say if one race took a strategic objective, they could get as a reward an extra big ship in the shipyard for their labors.

            What else can SQL allow?

            How about players spending their accumulated PP to purchase AI ships and spending PP to move them around on the map?  That would be very interesting factor in itself and provide another angle to strategic game play as well as give players something else to spend the hard earned PP on.  Right Now, the AI is pretty much ignored and treated with disdain, but it does not have to be that way.

            How about players moving themselves strategically on the map using the web map, with, of course the necessary expenditure of accumulated PP.  This could be restricted, example include player must start at a base/planet and end their movement at a base/planet.

            Players could trade PP with each other (say 3 points invested = 1 point to the player) or even with allied players belonging to another race.  Think the lend/lease deal with Great Briton and USA during WW2 for an historical example.

            Players ?hire? AI Pirates to harass the enemy behind the lines as it were, this might not be workable, but an ideal nonetheless.

            Players could spend PP to increase or decrease political tensions.  This could include non-allied as well?think propaganda and efforts of diplomacy, all which require funds to be successful.

            What about internal development?  Player would expend PP and the hex they were in could be improved in some manner.  Improvements could be as radical as bringing a Minor Planet on board if 100k donated by players, or increase the DV or Econ of the hex by one for every 10k-50k PP spent.  I am certain once things get rolling, others can come up with some other ?uses? for accumulated PP.

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Don't give it up
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Offline RazalYllib

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Re: Classic War (experimental/fun server)
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2004, 10:32:43 pm »
Interesting, over 24hrs since the above post and not a single comment from anyone. Weirdness or are you still digesting the above?

Anyhow, got a couple additional things, addendum, as additions to the above wishlist and sql application rant.

Players could donate PP to a "racial bank" and players could draw funds if needed, say 50:1 ratio and any player could draw a percentage of their current glicko from that pool once per game year.

     Another thought concerns the underlying economics of the DV itself now that the shipyard function can be detached from the economic situation on the map through the voodoo inherent in using an sql database. This has profound implications for gameplay enhancement. 

     This would allow very easy tracking of VC by conceptionally substituting the Econ Value of a hex with its numerical Victory Point Value.  Campaign Designers would use the Econ Value on the map as the Victory Point Value and the Game would automatically keep partial score.  IIRC, and correct me if I am wrong, but I am proceeding with the understanding that a custom mission script for OP can "interact" in some manner with sql database itself by at least writing a value to a table.  That value could be parsed by a script and the value stored natively as racial econ based on map calculations would be adjusted by the mission result value and Score would be kept for each mission.  If it works that is. 

     I don't know if it is possible, but could sql seed entry's as news items.  That could handy feature that could be a boon to all.  This of course depends on the selfless dedication and hard work of others with the skills necessary to pull it off; and I know who you are, I have been watching for some time now; IRIS sees.  I wish I could code, but its like another language, and I am just getting the hang of this one. 

     These are all just the accumulation of ideas that have been circulating in my head from the moment sql was mentioned in the same sentence as dynaverse database.
Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says "don't you see?"
Gotta make it somehow
On the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up
You got an empty cup
Only love can fill
Only love can fill