Topic: US wins first gold medal in fencing in 100 years...

[Abfalter]

As a fencer, I was thrilled the other day when Mariel Zagunis won the gold medal in Women's Saber. 

The US has not won a gold medal in fencing in 100 years; and that medal was in the "single sticks" wooden-sword event that was eliminated by the 1908 games so (and no disrespect to the winner) I don't really count that.

100 YEARS! 

We had not won many silver or bronze medals before, either.  In fact, we won only a single bronze, once, about 20 years ago.  A great fencer named Peter Westbrook managed to get a bronze, just that once.  (Peter is now the coach for many of the fencers on currently on the US team today!)

Not to be forgotten, we also took a bronze!  Sada Jacobson won the bronze medal.  Her little sister was also in the Olympics; she came in 7th place herself.  (Too bad little sis didn't win her bout --it would have been neat to see the two sisters fencing each other for a medal!)

- First US gold in 100 years in fencing.
- First US women to to get any Olympic medals in fencing.

Our Men's Saber team (in the team event you sum up individual's scores for the team) we came in 4th.  We lost to France 45-44 (on a single questionable point) otherwise we'd have been in the gold/silver contention. 

(ADDENDUM: I read an article that said that the point was in question; however, I've subsequently read that the fencer, himself, acknowledges the mistake that lost the point.  France won fair and square...)

As a US fencer I am happy to see my country doing well in my favorite sport!


http://www.nbcolympics.com/fencing/5041652/detail.html

[The Postman]

Congrats to the US team

We would have had a medal in 1912 if the judges hadn't lost track of a bullet. As it was we placed 5th.

[Sirgod]

That's too cool. I only aw this on was news channel yesterday, But I'm Very proud that we won.

Stephen

[Abfalter]

Congrats to the US team

We would have had a medal in 1912 if the judges hadn't lost track of a bullet. As it was we placed 5th.

What is the story on the bullet?  Now you have piqued my curiosity...

[KnightAdvancer]

Congrats to the US team

We would have had a medal in 1912 if the judges hadn't lost track of a bullet. As it was we placed 5th.

You talking of Patton, who supposedly placed the second bullet so perfectly through the first one's hole that the judges counted it as a complete miss?

[Gambler]

I saw the little bit of the medal winning performances that NBC showed.  I wish they had shown more.  Not knowing anything about fencing it could have helped make things more interesting to see the actual fights vs just the touch's.

[Lepton]

Yah, it seems that fencing has finally earned a place in primetime Olympics coverage now that Americans are in contention.  It was great to finally see some coverage of it, but only saber, only saber.  What about foil and epee?  At least one has a slight chance of seeing a point in those events.  It seems that it has been so long since I have seen Olympics coverage of fencing that the last time I saw it saber was done completely differently.  It was all sabers up and slashing with alot of one-directional foot-work.  Now it just looks like Foil Plus.

Some very close matches in the American effort, but I felt they really lost their footing by going for so many simultaneous/quick attacks when near the final points.  It makes it like chance instead of skill.  Most of the featured Americans were more comfortable scoring from a defensive position, but threw that out the window when close to match points.  Seems like a bit of tradition overcoming common sense and tactical awareness there.

Needless to say I was rivetted to each point in those matches as opposed to the endless coverage of every damn swimming event heat under the sun.  Boring!!!!

[Sirgod]

Yah, it seems that fencing has finally earned a place in primetime Olympics coverage now that Americans are in contention.  It was great to finally see some coverage of it, but only saber, only saber.  What about foil and epee?  At least one has a slight chance of seeing a point in those events.  It seems that it has been so long since I have seen Olympics coverage of fencing that the last time I saw it saber was done completely differently.  It was all sabers up and slashing with alot of one-directional foot-work.  Now it just looks like Foil Plus.

Some very close matches in the American effort, but I felt they really lost their footing by going for so many simultaneous/quick attacks when near the final points.  It makes it like chance instead of skill.  Most of the featured Americans were more comfortable scoring from a defensive position, but threw that out the window when close to match points.  Seems like a bit of tradition overcoming common sense and tactical awareness there.

Needless to say I was rivetted to each point in those matches as opposed to the endless coverage of every damn swimming event heat under the sun.  Boring!!!!

UHM, I'm assuming you liked the MAtches, But Think It was rushed towards the end right?

sorry, Any win for the US, I'm proud of Of, and I believe you are also.

Stephen

[Abfalter]

Yah, it seems that fencing has finally earned a place in primetime Olympics coverage now that Americans are in contention.  It was great to finally see some coverage of it, but only saber, only saber.  What about foil and epee?  At least one has a slight chance of seeing a point in those events.  It seems that it has been so long since I have seen Olympics coverage of fencing that the last time I saw it saber was done completely differently.  It was all sabers up and slashing with alot of one-directional foot-work.  Now it just looks like Foil Plus.

Some very close matches in the American effort, but I felt they really lost their footing by going for so many simultaneous/quick attacks when near the final points.  It makes it like chance instead of skill.  Most of the featured Americans were more comfortable scoring from a defensive position, but threw that out the window when close to match points.  Seems like a bit of tradition overcoming common sense and tactical awareness there.

Needless to say I was rivetted to each point in those matches as opposed to the endless coverage of every damn swimming event heat under the sun.  Boring!!!!

The last Olympics there was zero TV coverage.  This year they had 4-5 hours on Bravo and other channels --as well as the last minute schedule change on
NBC to show that we won the gold medal that day.  So compared to what we had before, this was a bonanza.  Millions of people got to see even just a little bit of fencing who had never seen it before.

That being said, it was too bad that they showed the ENTIRE national anthem in the medal ceremony, but only showed three points (out of about 28 in total) of the actual event.  It was a nice America's Moment, having her stand there whispering the national anthem and wearing her gold medal, but it would have been nice to show more of the actual sport.

All the TV coverage was sabre.  My guess is that uninformed TV exec's, upon hearing the descriptions of the weapons, assume saber would be the most interesting on TV.  It's not (particularly Men's Saber) because the points are quick and with little swordplay interaction.  Epee would be more TV-friendly --foil is just too small and quick, the heavier epee would be easier to view. 

Saber is all agression, you don't see many successful riposte-oriented saber champions.  So it's natural to see a lot of double-touches with both trying trying to acheive right of way first. 

I have to also say this: The new saber masks are dorky!  They look like our fencers are in for a heavy night of arc-welding!  I do like the lights embedded in the masks, but the little window is no good.  Either they need to make a fully transparent mask front, or they need to go back to a completely mesh mask.

[Sirgod]

We have got to get together sometime Scott. I bet I can learn alot from you, esp. Given the fact that JKD is loosly based on Fencing (The Stance, strong arm lead , etc.)

Stephen

[Abfalter]

We have got to get together sometime Scott. I bet I can learn alot from you, esp. Given the fact that JKD is loosly based on Fencing (The Stance, strong arm lead , etc.)

Stephen

I have found that people with a martial arts background tend to translate well into fencing because they already understand the idea of controlling the distance with the opponent and reacting to what their opponent is doing.

I also found that people with a ballet background have done well because their footwork is very precise! 

Where are you physically?  I can point you at a nearby fencing club and you can check them out...

[Sirgod]

I'm In Oklahoma City still.

Ironicly, I did about a year of Ballet training for Flexibility work. The Martial arts training I did was probably around 85% footwork alone. Punching and Kicking is Easy to do, But If you can't move and "Bridge the Gap" so to say, your dead in water.

The Jeet Kune Do" Bi Jong" stance was actually based on fencing.

I would appreciate If you can locate a School here outside of Redlance Fencing. They've branched out to far into other things IMHO.

stephen

[The Postman]

Congrats to the US team

We would have had a medal in 1912 if the judges hadn't lost track of a bullet. As it was we placed 5th.

What is the story on the bullet?  Now you have piqued my curiosity...

... In 1912 he represented the United States at the Stockholm Olympics in the first Modern Pentathlon. Originally open only to military officers, it was considered a rigorous test of the skills a soldier should possess. Twenty-six year old Patton did remarkably well in the multi-event sport, consisting of pistol shooting from 25 meters, sword fencing, a 300 meter free style swim, 800 meters horse back riding and a 4-kilometer cross country run. He placed fifth overall, despite a disappointing development in the shooting portion. While most chose .22 revolvers, Patton felt the event's military roots garnered a more appropriate weapon, the .38. During the competition Patton was docked for missing the target, though he contended the lost bullet had simply passed through a large opening created by previous rounds from the .38, which left considerably larger holes. .....

[Abfalter]

Here's one:
Contact:  David Ribaudo
11717 Leaning Elm Rd
Oklahoma City, OK 73120-5914
E-mail address:  djribaudo@cableone.net 

or another in Edmund, OK:
http://www.oksportfencing.com/

[Lepton]

Abfalter,

I agree with about everything you said.  I have done some fencing training but never stuck with it.  I too would have enjoyed the epee a good deal more.  You are of course right about establishing the attack in saber but supposedly both of the fencers that were most in the public eye for the US were characterized as more comfortable scoring from a defensive position and it was my impression that they did better in those instances when they were able to make their opponents attacks fall short and riposte as opposed to trying to establish initiative.

What really got me steamed was they showed a highlight of some final point in an epee gold medal match and the celebration and that was it.  If they've got the camera there to record the finale, why not at least record some set of points and put it on late at night or something?  I know they are trying to cover lots of events, but if they are tasking a camera to be there for that moment, why not turn it on a few minutes before that so we can see what actually occured?  I wonder if there might not be a market for a DVD of Olympic fencing events that NBC could put out if they have the cameras just sitting there doing nothing.

[Sirgod]

Thanks for the Info Scott.

Lepton that's a wonderfull Idea actually. I know I would buy It in a heartbeat if the DVD would be made.

Stephen

[Abfalter]

Abfalter,

I agree with about everything you said.  I have done some fencing training but never stuck with it.  I too would have enjoyed the epee a good deal more.  You are of course right about establishing the attack in saber but supposedly both of the fencers that were most in the public eye for the US were characterized as more comfortable scoring from a defensive position and it was my impression that they did better in those instances when they were able to make their opponents attacks fall short and riposte as opposed to trying to establish initiative.

What really got me steamed was they showed a highlight of some final point in an epee gold medal match and the celebration and that was it.  If they've got the camera there to record the finale, why not at least record some set of points and put it on late at night or something?  I know they are trying to cover lots of events, but if they are tasking a camera to be there for that moment, why not turn it on a few minutes before that so we can see what actually occured?  I wonder if there might not be a market for a DVD of Olympic fencing events that NBC could put out if they have the cameras just sitting there doing nothing.

Oh, believe me, they have footage of every single minute.  Film isn't that expensive.  It's TV time that is a precious commodity. 

It's easy to complain, but considering we got zero minutes the last Olympics and had several hours --on some cable channels --this Olympics (plus 10 minutes of primetime) I am thrilled.

I doubt that Keith Smart is more comfortable in a defensive position.  After all, his coach (Peter Westbrook) has a book out on fencing entitled "Harnessing Anger"

[S'Raek]

Abfalter,

I agree with about everything you said.  I have done some fencing training but never stuck with it.  I too would have enjoyed the epee a good deal more.  You are of course right about establishing the attack in saber but supposedly both of the fencers that were most in the public eye for the US were characterized as more comfortable scoring from a defensive position and it was my impression that they did better in those instances when they were able to make their opponents attacks fall short and riposte as opposed to trying to establish initiative.

What really got me steamed was they showed a highlight of some final point in an epee gold medal match and the celebration and that was it.  If they've got the camera there to record the finale, why not at least record some set of points and put it on late at night or something?  I know they are trying to cover lots of events, but if they are tasking a camera to be there for that moment, why not turn it on a few minutes before that so we can see what actually occured?  I wonder if there might not be a market for a DVD of Olympic fencing events that NBC could put out if they have the cameras just sitting there doing nothing.

Oh, believe me, they have footage of every single minute.  Film isn't that expensive.  It's TV time that is a precious commodity. 

It's easy to complain, but considering we got zero minutes the last Olympics and had several hours --on some cable channels --this Olympics (plus 10 minutes of primetime) I am thrilled.

I doubt that Keith Smart is more comfortable in a defensive position.  After all, his coach (Peter Westbrook) has a book out on fencing entitled "Harnessing Anger"

I don't know about you guys, but over here we have been getting our fair share of ping-pong and badminton.  If they can show that stuff they could show some fencing!  You were lucky to get the stuff on cable. 

[Sirgod]

Actually Scott or Lepton, would you care to Describe the difarance between the three styles of fencing? at least for us Newbies, It might come in handy to Be able to discuss Given a Basis.

Stephen

[Just plain old Punisher]

So if someone tries to attack me with a floppy metal sword and wears a noodle strainer on his head...I'll know whom to ask to defend me.

[Sirgod]

So if someone tries to attack me with a floppy metal sword and wears a noodle strainer on his head...I'll know whom to ask to defend me.

Too funny.

Stephen

[Abfalter]

Actually Scott or Lepton, would you care to Describe the difarance between the three styles of fencing? at least for us Newbies, It might come in handy to Be able to discuss Given a Basis.

Stephen

The most popular weapon is foil.  It's characteristics are that it is the smallest and lightest weapon.  The valid target area is the entire torso but not the arms or head --the back is perfectly valid if you can get to it.   There are rules for foil called "right of way" which basically boils down to "If you attack me, I have to parry that attack first before I can hit you for a point."

The weapon most like a duelist weapon is the epee, which is heavier and larger.  The valid target area for epee is the entire body.  You can score a point on someone's big toe.  There is no right of way in epee.  If both fencers touch, they BOTH get a point. 

Finally there is saber, which is what they showed on TV.  The other weapons score with the point.  The saber scores with the edge of the blade (or the point, if you can manage it).  The valid target area for saber is anything above the waist (including head).  Saber also has "right of way" rules, just like foil.  As our gold medal winner proved, raw agression is saber is a valuable skill. 

[Abfalter]

So if someone tries to attack me with a floppy metal sword and wears a noodle strainer on his head...I'll know whom to ask to defend me.

Yeah, I'll defend you in that case.  If someone attacks with a real sword instead, forget me and dial 911.

[Gambler]

So if someone tries to attack me with a floppy metal sword and wears a noodle strainer on his head...I'll know whom to ask to defend me.

Yeah, I'll defend you in that case.  If someone attacks with a real sword instead, forget me and dial 911.

That's when you call Indiana Jones and his pistol. 

[Abfalter]

So if someone tries to attack me with a floppy metal sword and wears a noodle strainer on his head...I'll know whom to ask to defend me.

Yeah, I'll defend you in that case.  If someone attacks with a real sword instead, forget me and dial 911.

That's when you call Indiana Jones and his pistol. 

I just saw that again a while ago on TV and, in truth, that is one of the greatest movie scenes of all time. 

[Gambler]

That's when you call Indiana Jones and his pistol. 

I just saw that again a while ago on TV and, in truth, that is one of the greatest movie scenes of all time. 

You may be right.  In an era of big bad fight scenes etc, cutting straight to the chase and actually taking advantage of the situation to make things much longer and more exciting.

It may not have been sporting.  But in reality it was an excellent choice for the character to make.  I've seen movies where one person gives up his weapon advantage so that it can be a fair fight.  He still wins, but it's longer and tougher.  In my opinion, in real life it's better to take the fast, easy way to the kill in a situation like that.